2018 USNWR Rankings Forum

[Hikikomorist]

Kind of unfair that LACs can't have lay prestige.

In some circles SWAP (Swarthmore, Williams, Amherst, Pomona) are very prestigious, on the same level at HYSP. I don't assume this is the case in most circle, though.

"SWAP"? It's like Georgetown trying to make T14 happen. Amherst has more lay recognition than Williams but to anyone that knows anything about LACs, Williams, Amherst, and Swarthmore are on their own. Since this is a USNWR thread: Pomona ranks 7.

Going in relative order, though, makes it very difficult to avoid using "WASP."

+1. WASP is the clear pecking order among the top 4 LACs.

No.

[RParadela]

A couple years go TLS went crazy when Emory cracked the T20, this year ND did and cares lol.

Doesn't Emory have a sub- 30% BL+FC number?

They aren't T20, no one gives a shit about the Atlanta market

[shadowfax]

Kind of unfair that LACs can't have lay prestige.

In some circles SWAP (Swarthmore, Williams, Amherst, Pomona) are very prestigious, on the same level at HYSP. I don't assume this is the case in most circle, though.

"SWAP"? It's like Georgetown trying to make T14 happen. Amherst has more lay recognition than Williams but to anyone that knows anything about LACs, Williams, Amherst, and Swarthmore are on their own. Since this is a USNWR thread: Pomona ranks 7.

Ranking of tier 1 LAC acronyms:
PAWS
WASP
SWAP

Not that it matters, though, because LACs have no lay prestige.

Well maybe a little. https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliespo ... a1a19e4b0f

[laqueredup]

Kind of unfair that LACs can't have lay prestige.

In some circles SWAP (Swarthmore, Williams, Amherst, Pomona) are very prestigious, on the same level at HYSP. I don't assume this is the case in most circle, though.

"SWAP"? It's like Georgetown trying to make T14 happen. Amherst has more lay recognition than Williams but to anyone that knows anything about LACs, Williams, Amherst, and Swarthmore are on their own. Since this is a USNWR thread: Pomona ranks 7.

Ranking of tier 1 LAC acronyms:
PAWS
WASP
SWAP

Not that it matters, though, because LACs have no lay prestige.

Well maybe a little. https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliespo ... a1a19e4b0f

For some reason USNWR ranks service academies as liberal arts colleges, strange considering they don't even award BAs.
Annapolis and Westpoint therefore have the most lay prestige among LACs handsdown

Though for some reason USNWR also ranks them as engineering schools... I guess they know best

[PrezRand]

LACs are dope.
Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, CMC, Pomona, Wesleyan

[Hikikomorist]

LACs are dope.
Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, CMC, Pomona, Wesleyan

Torn on Claremont McKenna. Great numbers, but overshadowed by Pomona.

[rpupkin]

Do you want to get a high paying job @ V100?
Top 10 by % of graduates placed at the V100.

Source: National Law Journal - The TOP 10 - 2017


Rank Law school % OF 2016 GRADUATES AT THE LARGEST 100 FIRMS
1 Columbia Law School 57.07%
2 University of Chicago Law School 48.84%
3 Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law 47.58%
4 Cornell Law School 47.54%
5 New York University School of Law 47.42%
6 Duke Law School 45.50%
7 University of Virginia School of Law 44.85%
8 University of Pennsylvania Law School 43.80%
9 Harvard Law School 42.81%
10 Stanford Law School 39.34%

Just lol @ Yale. Why suffer through three years of living in New Haven for a school that can't even place you in big law? Pathetic.

[chicago-gunner123]

Do you want to get a high paying job @ V100?
Top 10 by % of graduates placed at the V100.

Source: National Law Journal - The TOP 10 - 2017


Rank Law school % OF 2016 GRADUATES AT THE LARGEST 100 FIRMS
1 Columbia Law School 57.07%
2 University of Chicago Law School 48.84%
3 Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law 47.58%
4 Cornell Law School 47.54%
5 New York University School of Law 47.42%
6 Duke Law School 45.50%
7 University of Virginia School of Law 44.85%
8 University of Pennsylvania Law School 43.80%
9 Harvard Law School 42.81%
10 Stanford Law School 39.34%

I am going for big law, so this is what I care about.

I really don't care if my friends/neighbors don't know about the law school i will attend. I want to attend a law school where most of the graduating class got a high paying job @ big law firms.

Those numbers are somewhat misleading, though. It isn't the percentage of students who could do biglaw if they wanted to; it's the percentage of students who choose to do biglaw. If your goal is a high paying job, YLS should definitely still be in your top 10--the fact that a bunch of your peers will go off to become professors and judges or run the ACLU or whatever doesn't affect your odds of landing biglaw.

If you divide these numbers by the BL% for each school, wouldn't that give a pretty good picture of "top tier BL" placement strength?

These numbers are actually based on the 100 biggest lawfirms, which is not the same as 100 most prestigious. I would recommend sticking to the data posted earlier in this thread which looks to placement to firms with 100+ attorneys PLUS federal clerkships (which is also imperfect but definitely a better metric of how many people in the class can get "biglaw jobs" generally).

Also like another poster mentioned, there is the huge caveat that some schools' students tend to select out of biglaw (ex: Yale) moreso than at other schools and those students aren't picked up

[ood's_brother]

According to the Princeton Review, lay prestige is as follows

The colleges parents most named as their “dream college” for their children were:

1. Stanford Law School
2. Harvard Law School
3. Princeton University School of Law
4. Massachusetts Institute of Technology Law school
5.Duke University
6. University of Michigan — Ann Arbor
7. University of Notre Dame
8. New York University
9. University of Pennsylvania
10.University of Southern California

https://www.princetonreview.com/press/c ... ss-release

[PrezRand]

LACs are dope.
Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, CMC, Pomona, Wesleyan

Torn on Claremont McKenna. Great numbers, but overshadowed by Pomona.

True. Harvey Mudd is up there too

[SPerez]

The "A&M" rebranding of former Texas Wesleyan law is paying off. Texas A&M Law was ranked #150 two years ago, #111 last year, up to #92. Watch out SMU, the charade is up.

There was a user about a year ago, who asked about thoughts on A&M, that he was considering the school and felt that it was up and coming after attending ASD (his numbers were not great, if I remember correctly, and it was his best offer - ultimately, I think that he retook). He was laughed out of TLS, with the "it's still Wesleyan" cracks. May have been a good move, as I'm not sure if its reputation is any different - but perhaps this user's hunch was correct that they were a school on the rise

Skimming this quickly, I was really confused why someone was being mocked for attending Wesleyan.

Yeah, strange lawl. But yeah it's on the rise likely because of its new name, the insane growth of the larger Dallas/Fort Worth area. People tend to forget about Fort Worth for good reason, but the population is booming. A&M's Median LSAT was 157, a marked increase from 150-land under the Wesleyan name. Obviously A&M is not going to compete with SMU for a while (10 years) and UT for a century, but good stuff is happening at A&M overall.

Edit: Grammar

IMO it was always a foregone conclusion that A&M was going to be in the top 100 within a few years. How close they will get to SMU is the more interesting question. They've already done all the easy things to game the rankings. They cut the class size basically in half, which went a long way to increase their median so much so quickly. They've got basically a blank check to spend whatever they need to in terms of scholarships and professors. They essentially created an IP program overnight, hired a ton of profs in one summer. All those things push almost all the ranking criteria levers - LSAT/GPA, spending per student, student-faculty ratio, acceptance rate, financial aid; bar passage and employment 10 mos. out will start to boost once those smaller classes start graduating this year.

After that, though, it gets harder. They'll have to move those stubborn reputation scores and I'm not sure what it would take to get big firms to start seeing their grads as the equivalent to SMU.

It's a fascinating real-world experiment that many weren't sure would ever be actually done by anyone, but that proves how to rise in the rankings isn't a secret. Just takes spending a crap ton of money.

[34iplaw]

According to the Princeton Review, lay prestige is as follows

The colleges parents most named as their “dream college” for their children were:

1. Stanford Law School
2. Harvard Law School
3. Princeton University School of Law
4. Massachusetts Institute of Technology Law school
5.Duke University
6. University of Michigan — Ann Arbor
7. University of Notre Dame
8. New York University
9. University of Pennsylvania
10.University of Southern California

https://www.princetonreview.com/press/c ... ss-release

Isn't the Princeton Review basically the TTT of test prep? As far as I know, it sucks for LSAT and GMAT, but it's been quite a few years since my SAT/SSAT/AP days.

[TexasENG]

.

[Moneytrees]

The "A&M" rebranding of former Texas Wesleyan law is paying off. Texas A&M Law was ranked #150 two years ago, #111 last year, up to #92. Watch out SMU, the charade is up.

There was a user about a year ago, who asked about thoughts on A&M, that he was considering the school and felt that it was up and coming after attending ASD (his numbers were not great, if I remember correctly, and it was his best offer - ultimately, I think that he retook). He was laughed out of TLS, with the "it's still Wesleyan" cracks. May have been a good move, as I'm not sure if its reputation is any different - but perhaps this user's hunch was correct that they were a school on the rise

Skimming this quickly, I was really confused why someone was being mocked for attending Wesleyan.

Yeah, strange lawl. But yeah it's on the rise likely because of its new name, the insane growth of the larger Dallas/Fort Worth area. People tend to forget about Fort Worth for good reason, but the population is booming. A&M's Median LSAT was 157, a marked increase from 150-land under the Wesleyan name. Obviously A&M is not going to compete with SMU for a while (10 years) and UT for a century, but good stuff is happening at A&M overall.

Edit: Grammar

IMO it was always a foregone conclusion that A&M was going to be in the top 100 within a few years. How close they will get to SMU is the more interesting question. They've already done all the easy things to game the rankings. They cut the class size basically in half, which went a long way to increase their median so much so quickly. They've got basically a blank check to spend whatever they need to in terms of scholarships and professors. They essentially created an IP program overnight, hired a ton of profs in one summer. All those things push almost all the ranking criteria levers - LSAT/GPA, spending per student, student-faculty ratio, acceptance rate, financial aid; bar passage and employment 10 mos. out will start to boost once those smaller classes start graduating this year.

After that, though, it gets harder. They'll have to move those stubborn reputation scores and I'm not sure what it would take to get big firms to start seeing their grads as the equivalent to SMU.

It's a fascinating real-world experiment that many weren't sure would ever be actually done by anyone, but that proves how to rise in the rankings isn't a secret. Just takes spending a crap ton of money.

I'm not sure anybody outside of Texas (maybe) would consider this to be a "fascinating real-world experiment".

[Ronan]

According to the Princeton Review, lay prestige is as follows

The colleges parents most named as their “dream college” for their children were:

1. Stanford Law School
2. Harvard Law School
3. Princeton University School of Law
4. Massachusetts Institute of Technology Law school
5.Duke University
6. University of Michigan — Ann Arbor
7. University of Notre Dame
8. New York University
9. University of Pennsylvania
10.University of Southern California

https://www.princetonreview.com/press/c ... ss-release

The princeton thing is always amusing to me. I've had ~3? people ask me if I applied to Princeton. The first time I thought it was a joke, then I realized that pop-culture just made everyone think Princeton has a great law school. Bizarre conversation every time.

Just tell people that Rutgers bought the law school.

[Veil of Ignorance]

LACs are dope.
Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, CMC, Pomona, Wesleyan

Torn on Claremont McKenna. Great numbers, but overshadowed by Pomona.

True. Harvey Mudd is up there too

Harvey Mudd students are ridiculously smart. Future astronauts and tech CEOS, the whole lot

[SPerez]

IMO it was always a foregone conclusion that A&M was going to be in the top 100 within a few years. How close they will get to SMU is the more interesting question. They've already done all the easy things to game the rankings. They cut the class size basically in half, which went a long way to increase their median so much so quickly. They've got basically a blank check to spend whatever they need to in terms of scholarships and professors. They essentially created an IP program overnight, hired a ton of profs in one summer. All those things push almost all the ranking criteria levers - LSAT/GPA, spending per student, student-faculty ratio, acceptance rate, financial aid; bar passage and employment 10 mos. out will start to boost once those smaller classes start graduating this year.

After that, though, it gets harder. They'll have to move those stubborn reputation scores and I'm not sure what it would take to get big firms to start seeing their grads as the equivalent to SMU.

It's a fascinating real-world experiment that many weren't sure would ever be actually done by anyone, but that proves how to rise in the rankings isn't a secret. Just takes spending a crap ton of money.

I'm not sure anybody outside of Texas (maybe) would consider this to be a "fascinating real-world experiment".

Or maybe, more accurately, law school admissions. You're right in the sense that the impact of this particular situation is limited to Texas, but it is still valuable for other schools trying to climb. It's a public school so it would be interesting for someone to file a public records request to see exactly how much money it took to jump from NR to Top 100 in less than 5 years.

[MKC]

According to the Princeton Review, lay prestige is as follows

The colleges parents most named as their “dream college” for their children were:

1. Stanford Law School
2. Harvard Law School
3. Princeton University School of Law
4. Massachusetts Institute of Technology Law school
5.Duke University
6. University of Michigan — Ann Arbor
7. University of Notre Dame
8. New York University
9. University of Pennsylvania
10.University of Southern California

https://www.princetonreview.com/press/c ... ss-release

The princeton thing is always amusing to me. I've had ~3? people ask me if I applied to Princeton. The first time I thought it was a joke, then I realized that pop-culture just made everyone think Princeton has a great law school. Bizarre conversation every time.

I just fell in a wikipedia rabbit hole.

Fun facts:

Princeton had a law school from 1847 until 1852.

Sonia Sotomayor has an honorary doctor of law from Princeton. So no law school, but they're still handing out law degrees.

[Bach-City]

.

[Ronan]

According to the Princeton Review, lay prestige is as follows

The colleges parents most named as their “dream college” for their children were:

1. Stanford Law School
2. Harvard Law School
3. Princeton University School of Law
4. Massachusetts Institute of Technology Law school
5.Duke University
6. University of Michigan — Ann Arbor
7. University of Notre Dame
8. New York University
9. University of Pennsylvania
10.University of Southern California

https://www.princetonreview.com/press/c ... ss-release

The princeton thing is always amusing to me. I've had ~3? people ask me if I applied to Princeton. The first time I thought it was a joke, then I realized that pop-culture just made everyone think Princeton has a great law school. Bizarre conversation every time.

I just fell in a wikipedia rabbit hole.

Fun facts:

Princeton had a law school from 1847 until 1852.

Sonia Sotomayor has an honorary doctor of law from Princeton. So no law school, but they're still handing out law degrees.

Yeah my UG didn't have any doctorate programs but they still handed out honorary doctorate degrees to commencement speakers. Always thought that was kind of stupid.

[Moneytrees]

IMO it was always a foregone conclusion that A&M was going to be in the top 100 within a few years. How close they will get to SMU is the more interesting question. They've already done all the easy things to game the rankings. They cut the class size basically in half, which went a long way to increase their median so much so quickly. They've got basically a blank check to spend whatever they need to in terms of scholarships and professors. They essentially created an IP program overnight, hired a ton of profs in one summer. All those things push almost all the ranking criteria levers - LSAT/GPA, spending per student, student-faculty ratio, acceptance rate, financial aid; bar passage and employment 10 mos. out will start to boost once those smaller classes start graduating this year.

After that, though, it gets harder. They'll have to move those stubborn reputation scores and I'm not sure what it would take to get big firms to start seeing their grads as the equivalent to SMU.

It's a fascinating real-world experiment that many weren't sure would ever be actually done by anyone, but that proves how to rise in the rankings isn't a secret. Just takes spending a crap ton of money.

I'm not sure anybody outside of Texas (maybe) would consider this to be a "fascinating real-world experiment".

Or maybe, more accurately, law school admissions. You're right in the sense that the impact of this particular situation is limited to Texas, but it is still valuable for other schools trying to climb. It's a public school so it would be interesting for someone to file a public records request to see exactly how much money it took to jump from NR to Top 100 in less than 5 years.

It doesn't matter at all though. Whether it's ranked 100, 75, or 50, that doesn't change the fact that it is a decent regional school for people in Texas. The rankings don't really matter generally, but outside the top 20 schools are so they are truly meaningless.

[poptart123]

.

[Moneytrees]

IMO it was always a foregone conclusion that A&M was going to be in the top 100 within a few years. How close they will get to SMU is the more interesting question. They've already done all the easy things to game the rankings. They cut the class size basically in half, which went a long way to increase their median so much so quickly. They've got basically a blank check to spend whatever they need to in terms of scholarships and professors. They essentially created an IP program overnight, hired a ton of profs in one summer. All those things push almost all the ranking criteria levers - LSAT/GPA, spending per student, student-faculty ratio, acceptance rate, financial aid; bar passage and employment 10 mos. out will start to boost once those smaller classes start graduating this year.

After that, though, it gets harder. They'll have to move those stubborn reputation scores and I'm not sure what it would take to get big firms to start seeing their grads as the equivalent to SMU.

It's a fascinating real-world experiment that many weren't sure would ever be actually done by anyone, but that proves how to rise in the rankings isn't a secret. Just takes spending a crap ton of money.

I'm not sure anybody outside of Texas (maybe) would consider this to be a "fascinating real-world experiment".

Or maybe, more accurately, law school admissions. You're right in the sense that the impact of this particular situation is limited to Texas, but it is still valuable for other schools trying to climb. It's a public school so it would be interesting for someone to file a public records request to see exactly how much money it took to jump from NR to Top 100 in less than 5 years.

It doesn't matter at all though. Whether it's ranked 100, 75, or 50, that doesn't change the fact that it is a decent regional school for people in Texas. The rankings don't really matter generally, but outside the top 20 schools are so they are truly meaningless.

I'm not sure SPerez argues that they are meaningful, but rather, that they can easily be gamed, and gamed quickly at that. I think it's interesting as well.

However, to your point, to a layperson or to A&M alumni (which are very dedicated to their alma mater and may be inclined to donate), perhaps the ranking is important or meaningful in some way. When first researching law schools an easy way to identify schools is by ranking, and the average applicant who most likely doesn't know to what extent rankings are meaningful, may now see A&M as the #5 school in Texas and therefore better than the ones ranked below it. A higher rank may not necessarily mean better outcomes, but to the average prospective student or applicant I do not doubt that he or she may irrationally perceive one. In their limited understanding they may think (rightly or wrongly) that A&M is legitimately a better school than St. Mary's, Tech, South Texas, and TSU.

My contention is that we should stop emphasizing the importance of rankings. Texas students should not spend a load of money to attend A&M simply because it is "up and coming" in a magazine. It is pretty obvious that the rankings can be gamed (UCI's meteoric rise is the best example of that).

[TheTaylor]

Do you want to get a high paying job @ V100?
Top 10 by % of graduates placed at the V100.

Source: National Law Journal - The TOP 10 - 2017


Rank Law school % OF 2016 GRADUATES AT THE LARGEST 100 FIRMS
1 Columbia Law School 57.07%
2 University of Chicago Law School 48.84%
3 Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law 47.58%
4 Cornell Law School 47.54%
5 New York University School of Law 47.42%
6 Duke Law School 45.50%
7 University of Virginia School of Law 44.85%
8 University of Pennsylvania Law School 43.80%
9 Harvard Law School 42.81%
10 Stanford Law School 39.34%

Just lol @ Yale. Why suffer through three years of living in New Haven for a school that can't even place you in big law? Pathetic.

Because a large percentage of these students do clerkships, public interest, etc. They all want to be the next Supreme Court Justice or POTUS. They pass up on big law so that they can advance their career in prestigious government jobs. That is also why Harvard and Stanford are low on the list, same deal.

[MKC]

You're doing God's work ITT. You are a TLS treasure sir.