C/O 2017 Median LSAT/GPA/Class Size Forum

[foles]

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[ms9]

Spivey can you lend some insight into why UGs would invest so heavily into their law schools? Is it a sort of a 'rising tide lifts all boats' thing where prestige for the law school is good for them too?

I ask because I'm relatively sure my UG is pumping our law school full of cash atm.

One way I have thought of it is from my business school days, when every economist would say that the airlines industry is the perfect profitable model. "There are very steep barriers to both entry and exit", they always concurred, "so once you get off the ground you are bou8nd to make a profit". Yet, it never seemed to happen.

With law schools, there are also rather steep barriers to entry and exit and for a long while most indeed turned a profit. There is also little overhead relative to some other graduate programs, other than faculty salaries which are very high at most places. So this explained the prior thinking and the growth pattern as demand increased.

Today, the vast majority aren't making money. It might make some sense for central university to keep them afloat, for the exact reason you mention, and because they can still be profitable in the long-run, particularly if managed correctly. But what makes less and less sense to me is this idea that as long as we worry about the rankings first, everything will be okay. You see so many irrational choices being made because of a rankings first mindset. I am surprised more schools have not said, "the hell with USNWR, lets control costs, serve a certain sector, and build a better law school". I do think some schools should care deeply about prestige, that is their sector or niche. I do think when rankings are going well, it is much more likely you can run a law school the right way. BUT, for a large number of schools I think they are missing the target here.

This may be a good question for Paul Campos.

[rebexness]

Whitespider, gold star for you bro/ladybro.

Got all of these into my XLS and will xfer them to the google doc tonight. Wow.

[JCougar]

I have no heard, in rapid succession from three different sources, that WUSTL held 166.

*It could be a feedback loop, ie one person heard from the same person etc., but interesting.

That would be pretty shocking, as they were admitting 165 splitters and giving them scholarships earlier in the cycle.

Someone mentioned they were deferring people?

[chuckbass]

I have no heard, in rapid succession from three different sources, that WUSTL held 166.

*It could be a feedback loop, ie one person heard from the same person etc., but interesting.

That would be pretty shocking, as they were admitting 165 splitters and giving them scholarships earlier in the cycle.

Someone mentioned they were deferring people?

I know of several people that they deferred, and once we started school it seems as though a good portion of the class was called and offered the option. My takeaway is that they originally thought that their numbers would slip, so they accepted a good amount of people below the 166, and as the cycle went on they got a sense of who was matriculating they realized they could hold the 166 and needed to get rid of some people.

[JCougar]

I have no heard, in rapid succession from three different sources, that WUSTL held 166.

*It could be a feedback loop, ie one person heard from the same person etc., but interesting.

That would be pretty shocking, as they were admitting 165 splitters and giving them scholarships earlier in the cycle.

Someone mentioned they were deferring people?

I know of several people that they deferred, and once we started school it seems as though a good portion of the class was called and offered the option. My takeaway is that they originally thought that their numbers would slip, so they accepted a good amount of people below the 166, and as the cycle went on they got a sense of who was matriculating they realized they could hold the 166 and needed to get rid of some people.

Are you saying they offered deferments even after orientation started?

[chuckbass]

No, I'm saying when orientation started I knew more than a handful of TLSers and a lot of people were offered deferrals during the summer.

I see how the way I worded it before was confusing, sorry.

[JCougar]

No, I'm saying when orientation started I knew more than a handful of TLSers and a lot of people were offered deferrals during the summer.

I see how the way I worded it before was confusing, sorry.

Oh, okay. So the class size is still somewhere around 260 then?

I was only wondering because the WUSTL CSO only has the ability to place about 100 people or so per year into semi-desirable legal jobs. This wasn't great news for my graduating class of 300, but recently, the class size had dropped below 200. If they maintained a 166 and they are back to 260 or so students, they should really be shooting for a 167 with about 190 students or so.

[MikeJD]

No, I'm saying when orientation started I knew more than a handful of TLSers and a lot of people were offered deferrals during the summer.

I see how the way I worded it before was confusing, sorry.

Oh, okay. So the class size is still somewhere around 260 then?

I was only wondering because the WUSTL CSO only has the ability to place about 100 people or so per year into semi-desirable legal jobs. This wasn't great news for my graduating class of 300, but recently, the class size had dropped below 200. If they maintained a 166 and they are back to 260 or so students, they should really be shooting for a 167 with about 190 students or so.

last year they were giving full rides just to maintain a 166 with a 3.69. I doubt they can get a 167 with a decent GPA. They would have to compromise their median GPA so much for a 167 it would hurt them in the rankings.

[JCougar]

last year they were giving full rides just to maintain a 166 with a 3.69. I doubt they can get a 167 with a decent GPA. They would have to compromise their median GPA so much for a 167 it would hurt them in the rankings.

But there seems to be a recent rebound in applicants with higher LSAT scores this cycle, as perhaps some of the smarter potential applicants are figuring this is a good time to "buy low" on a law school application (something I don't think is true).

Anyhow, my point was if they managed a 166 this year with such a big class, perhaps they can manage a smaller class with a 167. My main concern is for them to shrink the size of their class so they're not graduating so many unemployed and underemployed JDs. As an alumni, I refuse to donate any money until they figure out a non-scammy way of existing as a school, and if they're back to admitting gigantic class sizes, that's not a good sign from my perspective.

[Bikeflip]

Denver: http://www.law.du.edu/index.php/admissi ... statistics

Last year: http://www.law.du.edu/documents/financi ... l-Data.pdf

Applications 1,600 -164
Enrolled 260 -30
Full-time 225 -23
Part-time 35 -7
Median LSAT 156 -2
25th – 75th Percentile LSAT 153-159 -1, -1
Median GPA 3.40 -.03
25th – 75th Percentile GPA 3.11-3.62 -.09, -.02

[chuckbass]

last year they were giving full rides just to maintain a 166 with a 3.69. I doubt they can get a 167 with a decent GPA. They would have to compromise their median GPA so much for a 167 it would hurt them in the rankings.

But there seems to be a recent rebound in applicants with higher LSAT scores this cycle, as perhaps some of the smarter potential applicants are figuring this is a good time to "buy low" on a law school application (something I don't think is true).

Anyhow, my point was if they managed a 166 this year with such a big class, perhaps they can manage a smaller class with a 167. My main concern is for them to shrink the size of their class so they're not graduating so many unemployed and underemployed JDs. As an alumni, I refuse to donate any money until they figure out a non-scammy way of existing as a school, and if they're back to admitting gigantic class sizes, that's not a good sign from my perspective.

I definitely agree, and I'm sure the class above me will have better employment outcomes. I think they didn't intentionally over-enroll this year though, they just screwed up. I think 220 was the goal, which is still reasonable considering the class above was so small yet had so many full rides.

[Rigo]

Denver: http://www.law.du.edu/index.php/admissi ... statistics

Last year: http://www.law.du.edu/documents/financi ... l-Data.pdf

Applications 1,600 -164
Enrolled 260 -30
Full-time 225 -23
Part-time 35 -7
Median LSAT 156 -2
25th – 75th Percentile LSAT 153-159 -1, -1
Median GPA 3.40 -.03
25th – 75th Percentile GPA 3.11-3.62 -.09, -.02

Ouch! Could be a bit of foreshadowing for other T2 schools with large class sizes. (Cardozo, Hastings, Miami, Brooklyn, Loyola LA, American, Etc.)

[whitespider]

I can't wait until all these 509s get released, so I can dig into scholly info!

[Huskies13!]

wow:
http://online.wsj.com/articles/law-scho ... 1409671882

[Adrian Monk]

wow:
http://online.wsj.com/articles/law-scho ... 1409671882

think i need to pay to read the story. is there any possible that u can take a screenshot or copy/paste?

[JCougar]

wow:
http://online.wsj.com/articles/law-scho ... 1409671882

It looks like from the first few lines of the text that are not blocked off that the story is only talking about three schools. Not overall enrollment.

[Toby Ziegler]

wow:
http://online.wsj.com/articles/law-scho ... 1409671882

It looks like from the first few lines of the text that are not blocked off that the story is only talking about three schools. Not overall enrollment.

I just skimmed it, but it looks like it's talking about TTT schools.

[Sinatra]

If you ever want to read a wsj article and don't have a subscription, just copy and paste the title of the article to google and enter the site from there.

[czpczp]

If you ever want to read a wsj article and don't have a subscription, just copy and paste the title of the article to google and enter the site from there.

Wow, that is awesome! thanks!

[RunnerRunner]

How is Yale still the only t6 to have published medians!?!?!!?

[Rigo]

How is Yale still the only t6 to have published medians!?!?!!?

Wouldn't you be itching to brag about your very own eggplant enthusiast?

[jk148706]

So per that WSJ article:

Iowa medians:
LSAT -- 160 (-1)
GPA -- 3.64 (+.05)

Roger Williams:
LSAT -- 148 (-1)
GPA -- 3.16 (-0.02)

Brooklyn:
LSAT -- 156 (-3)
GPA -- 3.31 (-0.09)

ETA: Article also says Ohio Northern and Akron maintained LSAT medians

[jk148706]

Brooklyn Law School dean Nicholas Allard. "We are unwavering in only admitting students who we believe will do well, pass the bar and get a job."

[FinalFour]

How is Yale still the only t6 to have published medians!?!?!!?

Chicago's orientation is still 2 weeks away. NYU waited a while last year. No idea about Columbia, Harvard, and Stanford. I'm sure they did fine though.