Veterans Thread Forum

[Ex Cearulo]

I completely concur but will the brass and AFPC?

That's my only hope. I actually sat down with my Group Commander last Thursday and laid my cards on the table. He was very receptive and supportive, which was encouraging. He outlined the several reasons why the answer from AFPC will probably be "no" but also why I may have a glimmer of hope. And he agreed to push my request up as high up the chain as he could get it. He's a fast burner-type...multiple BTZ promotions, etc. Don't know if having him in my corner will help or not, but at least it's one hurdle down. Good enough for me to press with the LSAT in October and keep working on applications. I figure the worst case scenario is I get invaluable experience with the LSAT and LS application process for 6 years from now when I'm out of the AF and starting to apply all over again.

You asked so here goes but it is long and circuitous and somewhat of a mix between a bad pilot cliche and a couple Dos Gringos songs.

Well, like any red-blooded American fighter pilot, I love Dos Gringos. No, seriously, I enjoyed reading your story. And I'll certainly find it encouraging if the AF tells me to crawl back into my cockpit and STFU to know someone who took such a roundabout journey to LS. I appreciate you taking the time out of what I'm sure is a busy schedule to tell your story.

-HD

[Ex Cearulo]

Question for all the military folks out there who have already been through the application process:

To what lengths should I go to "dumb down" my resume and personal statement to make it easier for Admissions Committees to understand what I have done and currently do? While I'm sure they get a handful of military veterans applying each cycle, I find it hard to believe that they'll understand all the acronyms like TIC, PRI, SELO, BEANO, SOF, UDM, blah blah blah. And even if I write out all the acronyms, I worry they still won't know what it means. Same for other things like "4-ship flight lead".

I guess I'm just worried about how to capture all the experience I've had over the last 6+ years, most of which will be very unique to an ad comm, without being too patronizing and/or making my resume and personal statement way too long with explanations. Appreciate any advice you all have. (I'm going to post this question in another thread so the masses who likely never look at this Military Veterans thread can offer advice, also.)

-HD

[Rotor]

Question for all the military folks out there who have already been through the application process:

To what lengths should I go to "dumb down" my resume and personal statement to make it easier for Admissions Committees to understand what I have done and currently do? While I'm sure they get a handful of military veterans applying each cycle, I find it hard to believe that they'll understand all the acronyms like TIC, PRI, SELO, BEANO, SOF, UDM, blah blah blah. And even if I write out all the acronyms, I worry they still won't know what it means. Same for other things like "4-ship flight lead".

I guess I'm just worried about how to capture all the experience I've had over the last 6+ years, most of which will be very unique to an ad comm, without being too patronizing and/or making my resume and personal statement way too long with explanations. Appreciate any advice you all have. (I'm going to post this question in another thread so the masses who likely never look at this Military Veterans thread can offer advice, also.)

-HD

As you note above, no acronyms without spelling them out. However, I would take it one step further--no acronyms ever, and practically no terms that would normally be an acronym. If you are talking about such things, you are not talking about YOU (the point of the PS). Obviously if you're in special forces, that is an appropriate term that people will understand sufficiently. No need to say "Special Operations Force".

As for the "four ship flight lead" (and similar qualifications), I think those types of things are more about what you did, not who you are, and thus more appropriate for a resume than PS. And even then, it may be best to say something like "Achieved every pilot and mission command qualification attainable at that rank." Very dumbed down and maybe even not technically correct (since quals are normally based on hrs not rank, but an O-3 typically will not have 2000 hrs, for example).

Now, if your "four ship flight lead" example is just a lead in to a moment of leadership (or other quality you are trying to highlight in the PS), instead of saying "I was fragged as the four-ship flight lead tasked with close air support" just say something like "For that day's mission, I led a four plane formation that was tasked with protecting troops on the ground."

It's hard to make a hard and fast rule on what should be dumbed down or how far. Just assume they have no knowledge and describe in everyday terms rather than list items. The most important thing is to focus on the qualities you want to highlight not on the external things like commands or quals. Get the essence across not precise accuracy. (but never exaggerate or fabricate, obviously)

[Cobretti]

Question for all the military folks out there who have already been through the application process:

To what lengths should I go to "dumb down" my resume and personal statement to make it easier for Admissions Committees to understand what I have done and currently do? While I'm sure they get a handful of military veterans applying each cycle, I find it hard to believe that they'll understand all the acronyms like TIC, PRI, SELO, BEANO, SOF, UDM, blah blah blah. And even if I write out all the acronyms, I worry they still won't know what it means. Same for other things like "4-ship flight lead".

I guess I'm just worried about how to capture all the experience I've had over the last 6+ years, most of which will be very unique to an ad comm, without being too patronizing and/or making my resume and personal statement way too long with explanations. Appreciate any advice you all have. (I'm going to post this question in another thread so the masses who likely never look at this Military Veterans thread can offer advice, also.)

-HD

I'm in a MBA program right now and the career center has worked with me pretty extensively to try and make my resume understandable to civilians. The truth is you're going to dumb it down as much as you think you possibly can, and they still won't understand a lot of it. The military really does make you speak an entirely different language, you have to really sit down with someone that doesn't know anything about the service, and redo your resume so that they can understand it.

Specifically for your resume, you'll probably want to take off a lot of bullets that carry weight in the service but civilians wouldn't know/care. Example: I had proudly put my 1300 combat flight hours on my resume and every career councilor i talked to independently told me to drop it.

Just focus on your transferable skills and avoid name dropping at all costs. And seriously have a civilian read it over a bunch of times before you submit it to anyone.

[Rotor]

And seriously have a civilian read it over a bunch of times before you submit it to anyone.

Forgot to include this as the #1 recommendation in my post.

[JCFindley]

Question for all the military folks out there who have already been through the application process:

To what lengths should I go to "dumb down" my resume and personal statement to make it easier for Admissions Committees to understand what I have done and currently do? While I'm sure they get a handful of military veterans applying each cycle, I find it hard to believe that they'll understand all the acronyms like TIC, PRI, SELO, BEANO, SOF, UDM, blah blah blah. And even if I write out all the acronyms, I worry they still won't know what it means. Same for other things like "4-ship flight lead".

I guess I'm just worried about how to capture all the experience I've had over the last 6+ years, most of which will be very unique to an ad comm, without being too patronizing and/or making my resume and personal statement way too long with explanations. Appreciate any advice you all have. (I'm going to post this question in another thread so the masses who likely never look at this Military Veterans thread can offer advice, also.)

-HD

As you note above, no acronyms without spelling them out. However, I would take it one step further--no acronyms ever, and practically no terms that would normally be an acronym. If you are talking about such things, you are not talking about YOU (the point of the PS). Obviously if you're in special forces, that is an appropriate term that people will understand sufficiently. No need to say "Special Operations Force".

As for the "four ship flight lead" (and similar qualifications), I think those types of things are more about what you did, not who you are, and thus more appropriate for a resume than PS. And even then, it may be best to say something like "Achieved every pilot and mission command qualification attainable at that rank." Very dumbed down and maybe even not technically correct (since quals are normally based on hrs not rank, but an O-3 typically will not have 2000 hrs, for example).

Now, if your "four ship flight lead" example is just a lead in to a moment of leadership (or other quality you are trying to highlight in the PS), instead of saying "I was fragged as the four-ship flight lead tasked with close air support" just say something like "For that day's mission, I led a four plane formation that was tasked with protecting troops on the ground."

It's hard to make a hard and fast rule on what should be dumbed down or how far. Just assume they have no knowledge and describe in everyday terms rather than list items. The most important thing is to focus on the qualities you want to highlight not on the external things like commands or quals. Get the essence across not precise accuracy. (but never exaggerate or fabricate, obviously)

Everything the *hippie above says!

FWIW, I didn't dumb down my personal statement very much which was about an aircraft incident that should have killed me and the CW on here was that it was way too tecnical, but I sent it anyway and the adcom at Fordham loved it.... I also left my flight time ON my resume as it is something that matters no matter what some shoe clerk thinks. (my opinion only of course.)

* Blatant Boalt trolling by assuming ALL that attend Berkley are hippies and I stand by the statement. )

[Ex Cearulo]

Question on the law school app résumé for people with extensive military backgrounds: Is each assignment to a different base considered a separate job with its own line, or would it be better to lump everything into one section? Like most I'm sure, I've had different job titles and responsibilities at every assignment in addition to my primary job flying. I'm trying to figure out the best way to organize and communicate everything but still keep it to the standard one page.

[SemperLegal]

Question on the law school app résumé for people with extensive military backgrounds: Is each assignment to a different base considered a separate job with its own line, or would it be better to lump everything into one section? Like most I'm sure, I've had different job titles and responsibilities at every assignment in addition to my primary job flying. I'm trying to figure out the best way to organize and communicate everything but still keep it to the standard one page.

I put the military down one time with a bullet point for each deployment. However, I included a few of the schools that I went to under the education session so they knew that the "dumb grunt with a gun" stereotype was false. The schools I put down were ones that helped showcase my B Billets or more intellectually-challenging/leadership assignment.

Ironically, this meant that I included the dumbest and least impressive of all military events, NCO Courses, and omitted all the classes that I was actually proud of.

[manny88]

You folks will not believe this so here it goes .....

AF O-6 (yeah, a Colonel) ... gonna retire soon.
UG in Applied Math & Physics (around a 2.87--was a long time ago)
Two Masters ... Management & another in Military Operational Art & Science
Long list of military schooling--typical for an O-6
Will probably deploy before I retire
Did Space Ops jobs and AF nukes (ICBMs, etc.)

Just started rethinking LS again & taking LSAT in a year or so. Gearing up for a run but I may be too old. Will they (schools) think I am too old? Any advice for an "old guy"?

Always wanted to do LS.

Manny

[Ex Cearulo]

You folks will not believe this so here it goes .....

AF O-6 (yeah, a Colonel) ... gonna retire soon.
UG in Applied Math & Physics (around a 2.87--was a long time ago)
Two Masters ... Management & another in Military Operational Art & Science
Long list of military schooling--typical for an O-6
Will probably deploy before I retire
Did Space Ops jobs and AF nukes (ICBMs, etc.)

Just started rethinking LS again & taking LSAT in a year or so. Gearing up for a run but I may be too old. Will they (schools) think I am too old? Any advice for an "old guy"?

Always wanted to do LS.

Manny

Wow! And to think I'm worried about the AF making me wait 6 years and graduating at 37! Welcome. While I'm not in law school yet, I think law schools will care a lot more about the vast experience you bring to the table than they will about your age. If you spend some time looking at the demographics of various schools' entering classes, you'll consistently see schools where the oldest entering student is in their 40s, and a handful have some in their 50s. If you can explain why you want to go to law school after a long, successful career in the military, I think you'll be fine. That being said, I'm sure some schools will be a better fit than others, but you have plenty of time to research that.

-HD

[JCFindley]

You folks will not believe this so here it goes .....

AF O-6 (yeah, a Colonel) ... gonna retire soon.
UG in Applied Math & Physics (around a 2.87--was a long time ago)
Two Masters ... Management & another in Military Operational Art & Science
Long list of military schooling--typical for an O-6
Will probably deploy before I retire
Did Space Ops jobs and AF nukes (ICBMs, etc.)

Just started rethinking LS again & taking LSAT in a year or so. Gearing up for a run but I may be too old. Will they (schools) think I am too old? Any advice for an "old guy"?

Always wanted to do LS.

Manny

How ya do'n Manny and welcome to the old man going to LS club.

You won't have issues with admissions but likely will run into some issues with "traditional" right out of LS jobs. While age discrimination is not legal it does happen. The good news here is not everyone will care about the age, some traditional route jobs might actually appreciate your experience, and more importantly, your experience will likely open up some opportunities that just aren't there for your standard recent grad. Think Gov't contracting, or whatever else you might think of that can combine law and your previous life. For me, that means looking seriously into some niche aviation markets but I am also interested in criminal law and there are plenty of DA/PD offices that don't give a rat's A about age and like the military experience.

FWIW, in my school there is a retired Major the year ahead of me, and a dude that started at age sixty in the class in front of him.

[SemperLegal]

You folks will not believe this so here it goes .....

AF O-6 (yeah, a Colonel) ... gonna retire soon.
UG in Applied Math & Physics (around a 2.87--was a long time ago)
Two Masters ... Management & another in Military Operational Art & Science
Long list of military schooling--typical for an O-6
Will probably deploy before I retire
Did Space Ops jobs and AF nukes (ICBMs, etc.)

Just started rethinking LS again & taking LSAT in a year or so. Gearing up for a run but I may be too old. Will they (schools) think I am too old? Any advice for an "old guy"?

Always wanted to do LS.

Manny

There are some pretty old officers in law school, some of them even get the traditional biglaw jobs, but obviously they have a very different career path. I would focus more on keeping up those defense industry contacts that you must have made over such a long and technical career.

Also, I would look into consulting, with or without the JD.

[manny88]

Thanks for the feedback. I assess my UG GPA is too low to have a shot at some T14 schools. GPA for both masters degrees are 3.5 to 3.8 range but heard LS does not care much about grad grades. Gonna nail the LSAT. Was gonna try for UVA, Georgetown and a few others. Dreading an assignment at the Pentagon to wrap up my AF life--I would rather deploy than go to the Puzzle Palace but it would get me close to these schools. Anyway, I am interested in Big Law but willing to consider other areas. I am a 45 year old with kids to put through school--will have to maximize my earning potential within the next 12 or so years. Wife is also considering med school. You folks know how it is in the military--you work like crazy, have a family and you already at the 10 year mark. You get promoted, go to school a few times, command and you hit 20. We are finally at a point in which we can think about the next move.

We want to start a new life when I punch out. Also considering MBA option. Just have one 911 GI Bill and have 3 boys to put through college and wifey thinking med school.

Any words of wisdom is greatly appreciated.

Manny

[Cobretti]

If you nail the LSAT you could do UVA. Have you taken any PTs?

[JCFindley]

Thanks for the feedback. I assess my UG GPA is too low to have a shot at some T14 schools. GPA for both masters degrees are 3.5 to 3.8 range but heard LS does not care much about grad grades. Gonna nail the LSAT. Was gonna try for UVA, Georgetown and a few others. Dreading an assignment at the Pentagon to wrap up my AF life--I would rather deploy than go to the Puzzle Palace but it would get me close to these schools. Anyway, I am interested in Big Law but willing to consider other areas. I am a 45 year old with kids to put through school--will have to maximize my earning potential within the next 12 or so years. Wife is also considering med school. You folks know how it is in the military--you work like crazy, have a family and you already at the 10 year mark. You get promoted, go to school a few times, command and you hit 20. We are finally at a point in which we can think about the next move.

We want to start a new life when I punch out. Also considering MBA option. Just have one 911 GI Bill and have 3 boys to put through college and wifey thinking med school.

Any words of wisdom is greatly appreciated.

Manny

You can divide that 36 month benefit between your boys and give them one year of school each. (I think that needs to be done while you are on AD so investigate that now.) You can give that to your wife for med school then let her pay for their college but it takes a while to start earning after med school. You can use your benefit to attend LS yourself and hope biglaw or other income will be there to pay for college for them.

I basically did the latter and will go into a little detail as to why. Undergrad at a state school is pretty cheap relative to LS so you will get more bang for your buck using the Post 911 GI Bill for grad school especially if you target schools where it will pay 100% in combination with the YRP. You have quite a few T-14s where it will and you can add quite a few more if you consider T-30. (Which is a consideration with your GPA.) This is basically ANY state LS where you can get residency or any private school with a good LRP. Harvard, Boalt, UVA, Mich, Cornell, in the T-14 could all be attended for free. Just outside the T-14 add Texas and UCLA. There may be a few more as well and you will want to research schools that appeal to you and see what their YRP participation is.

I am linking you to a thread I made covering the subject here but you can feel free to ask ANY thing you like here or PM me if you would like. (That goes for any vets considering LS BTW.) http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=187630

As far as your GPA goes, you have heard right; that it is what matters for LS adcomms because that is what they report up to USN ranking stuff...... That will give you issues at some schools but there are schools out there that will actually care more about the fact that you are well accomplished within the military and will weigh that much higher than your GPA. Since you are a rather unique applicant NO ONE one here can tell you which schools will care and which ones will still only look at the numbers. My suggestion is to apply ANYWHERE you want to go and see what happens.

LSAT; Do a prep course. Heck, the GI Bill will even pay for it.

JC

[jgconte]

Infantry Officer (1LT)
Deployed as Platoon Leader to Afg in 2011 with 10th Mountain, currently an XO

Undergrad: Rutgers Poli Sci (ROTC)
LSDAS: 3.72
take LSAT in Oct

Glad I found this thread. Hope to see a lot of us get into the top schools, definetly well deserved!

[The Duck]

Has anyone figured out if the Post 9/11 pays for BarBri?

[Ex Cearulo]

Infantry Officer (1LT)
Deployed as Platoon Leader to Afg in 2011 with 10th Mountain, currently an XO

Undergrad: Rutgers Poli Sci (ROTC)
LSDAS: 3.72
take LSAT in Oct

Glad I found this thread. Hope to see a lot of us get into the top schools, definetly well deserved!

When were you there in 2011? My A-10 squadron was there over the summer, we may have worked directly with you. Remember what call sign you or your JTACs used? Good to have you on the board!

[reydingo]

Been lurking on this topic for a while. Good to see so many of going to do different paths after the military.

AD Army, Military Intelligence, former Chemical
Will be 5 1/2 years
UG: Criminal Justice-3.8
MBA: 3.8
Some standard Army Schools, BOLC, CCC, ABN
Nothing out of the ordinary in jobs, BN Chemo, RECCE PL, BN S-2
Preparing to take the LSAT June of next year.
Schools: Columbia (#1), Harvard, UVA, Boalt, Georgetown (More for in the event I don't get AD AF JAG, I do not know where I would settle).

Main intent is to transfer to AF JAG after completing law school, but wish to practice aviation law, in business and regulatory aspects. Since I have circumstances that may prevent me into getting AF JAG after law school, I started looking into government (FAA, US DoJ Civil Aviation), Defense (Boeing, Lockheed), and aviation niche markets in potential cities of New York, Boston, major cities in California (wife's preference, but Im not concerned post LS), and DC. Among LSAT prep, I come here to find any more aviation niche law firms, to diversify where to apply 5-6 years from now. Right now, I have Kriendler and Kriendler, that meets the criteria. While time, I am certain to find out aviation law firms.

[JCFindley]

Been lurking on this topic for a while. Good to see so many of going to do different paths after the military.

AD Army, Military Intelligence, former Chemical
Will be 5 1/2 years
UG: Criminal Justice-3.8
MBA: 3.8
Some standard Army Schools, BOLC, CCC, ABN
Nothing out of the ordinary in jobs, BN Chemo, RECCE PL, BN S-2
Preparing to take the LSAT June of next year.
Schools: Columbia (#1), Harvard, UVA, Boalt, Georgetown (More for in the event I don't get AD AF JAG, I do not know where I would settle).

Main intent is to transfer to AF JAG after completing law school, but wish to practice aviation law, in business and regulatory aspects. Since I have circumstances that may prevent me into getting AF JAG after law school, I started looking into government (FAA, US DoJ Civil Aviation), Defense (Boeing, Lockheed), and aviation niche markets in potential cities of New York, Boston, major cities in California (wife's preference, but Im not concerned post LS), and DC. Among LSAT prep, I come here to find any more aviation niche law firms, to diversify where to apply 5-6 years from now. Right now, I have Kriendler and Kriendler, that meets the criteria. While time, I am certain to find out aviation law firms.

My target firm as a matter of fact.

Remind me again of your goals later in the year after I have researched beyond K&K and I will share anything I find out with you. Don't leave out the NTSB for gov and you have quite a few unions and airlines and the the ATA that all have a boat load of attorneys then there are organizations like AOPA. Some of these may either require prior experience (think biglaw), or an aviation background.

Just curious, why aviation law?

Assuming you have the full Post 911 GI Bill remaining you might want to adjust your school list to institutions you can attend free of charge. There are quite a few in the T-14 (Including Harvard, Cornell, Boalt, UVA, Mich but there may be more.) Within NYC Fordham is the highest ranking school you can attend free.

JC

[jgconte]

Infantry Officer (1LT)
Deployed as Platoon Leader to Afg in 2011 with 10th Mountain, currently an XO

Undergrad: Rutgers Poli Sci (ROTC)
LSDAS: 3.72
take LSAT in Oct

Glad I found this thread. Hope to see a lot of us get into the top schools, definetly well deserved!

When were you there in 2011? My A-10 squadron was there over the summer, we may have worked directly with you. Remember what call sign you or your JTACs used? Good to have you on the board!

I was there until August when I took shrapnel from a grenade and got medevac'd to Germany. I dont remember any of my JTAC's call signs, though they're on the tip of my tounge. We were in Logar, my company in Charkh district. We did use CAS or atleast had you guys on station quite often. Definetly saved our ass on one patrol...

[Rotor]

You folks will not believe this so here it goes .....

AF O-6 (yeah, a Colonel) ... gonna retire soon.
UG in Applied Math & Physics (around a 2.87--was a long time ago)
Two Masters ... Management & another in Military Operational Art & Science
Long list of military schooling--typical for an O-6
Will probably deploy before I retire
Did Space Ops jobs and AF nukes (ICBMs, etc.)

Just started rethinking LS again & taking LSAT in a year or so. Gearing up for a run but I may be too old. Will they (schools) think I am too old? Any advice for an "old guy"?

Always wanted to do LS.

Manny

Manny,

I was a 21 year Navy retiree when I started LS (O-5). Much of what has been said above is on target. You are correct that the GPA may hold you back from some schools--but don't self-select out of a school. Make them say no to you. Don't just assume you won't get picked. My GPA was well sub-25th percentile for Berkeley (but around 3.5) and LSAT was sub-median--so a compelling story can work to overcome numbers some places. If you kill the LSAT there is some great advice on TLS for splitter strategies.

As for jobs, you will find that the firms that don't like your age are places you wouldn't want to work anyway. For me, I did 1L summer at a COA judge, 2L summer at a BigLaw firm; got an offer and start soon as an associate--a fairly typical "typical" path.

Best of luck to you!

[SemperLegal]

Manny,

I was a 21 year Navy retiree when I started LS

There are some pretty old officers in law school, some of them even get the traditional biglaw jobs, but obviously they have a very different career path.

Pretty egregious faux paus on my part. Sorry Rotor.

[reydingo]

JC-

The short reason-My reason for aviation law is to provide legal expertise for other aviation professionals, from pilots and mechanics, to airlines and corporate flight departments.

You can stop laughing by the way, it is true.

Long version-Had a love affair with aviation since I took my first plane ride at 17. Literally changed me from trying to get by to ambitious student with a plan. While in college, I applied to both the Air Force and Navy for pilot, navigator, and ABM (AF only), only to find out that my vision was that bad. Un the end, I needed a waiver for general service in all of them.

After several tries (I believe 12 total but lost count) with military aviation, along with a few other bumps, I started looking into supporting aviators et all. However, what started as joining the military to fly turned into desire to serve the US. I turned to the Army, to become an Air Defense Officer. If I cannot fly them, or fly in them, I will assist in protecting the skies against aerial threats. The Army had other plans, since that is low demand low drag. They first put me into the Chemical Corps, but I was with an Airborne unit. Got to jump several times, but it was not the same as just flying in the C-130 (never got to jump C-17). Now I am doing Intel. Tried to get an aviation brigade, did not work, but saved enough money to start flight lesson, only after 14 years.

Well, that is pretty much it. When I get out, aviation law, along with flight instruction and CAP will become my life. Besides, all things considered, look at the future clients compared (aviators) compared to others. I think I would rather be around pilots than bankers any day

Also, before I read your post, I was talking to the wife about going to several of those schools, where the GI Bill would cover the expenses. I believe the #1 now is Harvard, followed with Cornell and Boalt. Only reservation with Fordham is portability outside of New York. Good thing is that it doesn;t matter to her.

[Rotor]

Manny,

I was a 21 year Navy retiree when I started LS

There are some pretty old officers in law school, some of them even get the traditional biglaw jobs, but obviously they have a very different career path.

Pretty egregious faux paus on my part. Sorry Rotor.

What? I *am* old. Bald & graying too!

But spending my Navy career with 18-20 year old sailors and having my law career peers in their mid 20s is keeping me feeling young!