OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT) Forum

[r6_philly]

I was thinking of using a fountain pen.

Seriously, the times I've sat in on law classes, it seemed like half the students had their laptops open to Facebook or computer games (and I'm sure more than one TLS post has been made during a class). It would be a pain to have to type notes back onto a computer, but I was considering using paper to avoid the temptation of distraction.

It is not a crazy idea. Taking notes via pen and paper seem to be recommended by several law professors. While it is easy to dismiss this as simple an antiquated notion, more then a few of us seem to be bending over backwards (lets not forget willing to pay a lot of money...) to be taught by some of these same professors, perhaps giving their advice some credence would be a worthwhile notion.

In my grad school classes, I normally leave my laptop in its bag during lectures as I sit there with a notebook and pencil.

This only works if you can read your own handwriting

[er doctor]

I was thinking of using a fountain pen.

Seriously, the times I've sat in on law classes, it seemed like half the students had their laptops open to Facebook or computer games (and I'm sure more than one TLS post has been made during a class). It would be a pain to have to type notes back onto a computer, but I was considering using paper to avoid the temptation of distraction.

It is not a crazy idea. Taking notes via pen and paper seem to be recommended by several law professors. While it is easy to dismiss this as simple an antiquated notion, more then a few of us seem to be bending over backwards (lets not forget willing to pay a lot of money...) to be taught by some of these same professors, perhaps giving their advice some credence would be a worthwhile notion.

In my grad school classes, I normally leave my laptop in its bag during lectures as I sit there with a notebook and pencil.

This only works if you can read your own handwriting

I'm a doctor. NOBODY can read my handwriting.

[r6_philly]

I'm a doctor. NOBODY can read my handwriting.

Well played!

[er doctor]

I'm a doctor. NOBODY can read my handwriting.

Well played!

Thank you sir

[GinaTheresa]

to ER DOCTOR:

I thought your name was a spoof of the German "Herr Doktor", where they don't really pronounce the "H"! And you're actually an ER doctor - too funny!

[nygrrrl]

to ER DOCTOR:

I thought your name was a spoof of the German "Herr Doktor", where they don't really pronounce the "H"! And you're actually an ER doctor - too funny!

Wait. I speak German and we always pronounce that "H"....

[er doctor]

to ER DOCTOR:

I thought your name was a spoof of the German "Herr Doktor", where they don't really pronounce the "H"! And you're actually an ER doctor - too funny!

Every time hear "Herr Doctor" I think of Cloris Leachman in Young Frankenstein. thanks for making my day!

[ArghItsBlarg]

This only works if you can read your own handwriting

I'm a doctor. NOBODY can read my handwriting.

I'm a legal assistant who used to work as a medical assistant. I can read doctor AND lawyer handwriting. I don't know why I didn't include that skill on my resume.

[blackmamba76]

Hi all, just came across this thread and I definitely feel at home here. I just turned 35 this month, married with 2 kids, and got 2 more on the way in a couple of months. Hoping to get into LS this fall, but looking more like it would be fall 2012, which means I would be 36 when I do start LS. Probably would moving out of state and wife is definitely on board with that.

[run26.2]

Hi all, just came across this thread and I definitely feel at home here. I just turned 35 this month, married with 2 kids, and got 2 more on the way in a couple of months. Hoping to get into LS this fall, but looking more like it would be fall 2012, which means I would be 36 when I do start LS. Probably would moving out of state and wife is definitely on board with that.

Congratulations on your decision to attend -- and having a wife on board with your decision. That's not always the easiest decision for a family to make.

Since you mentioned moving out of state, I thought I'd bring up a point I did not really consider when I was applying to law school. This may or may not apply to you, blackmamba, but I thought it might be something for others in this thread to consider as they choose where to attend.

If you are planning to go the firm route and you are looking in a market outside of the one where your school is located, you are going to have a bit of an uphill battle overcoming employers' preconception that you actually will want to move to the new market. They will be looking for people that are committed to the market for which they are hiring.

Any hesitancy they have on this front will be compounded by other factors: several moves in your past, numerous different types of jobs, lots of leadership experience (you'll be a junior associate who may report to someone 5+ years younger than you), different advanced degrees that may not mesh in an obvious way with law. The more you have of any of these, the more pause an employer will have before extending an offer. That said, there is nothing to say that some employers will see right past all of that if you have a particular skill set they are interested in or you happen to hit it off very well with the interviewers.

All this to say, think seriously about whether there is a good option in the market where you are or where you want to end up. Employers look for reasons to weed people out. An interviewee's geographical background is a major factor they consider. Just something to keep in mind as you consider schools out of state.

Best of luck with your decision, now or later!

[albanach]

Since you mentioned moving out of state, I thought I'd bring up a point I did not really consider when I was applying to law school. This may or may not apply to you, blackmamba, but I thought it might be something for others in this thread to consider as they choose where to attend.

Equally they might see a family as more inclined to stay once they start with the firm. A first year associate is probably not very productive for the firm, so if they up and leave after year one or two, they're a liability. That's easier to do for a young and single associate than for one who is married with a family.

Personally I will also be bringing professional experience of 100 hour work weeks, something younger graduates may not have had the pleasure of. I've also worked on projects with both older and younger colleagues.

I don't think it's at all difficult to turn experience into a big advantage at recruiting. I'm certainly glad I'm past the stage of trying to pad a resume with the clubs I was a member of at school.

[haus]

Any hesitancy they have on this front will be compounded by other factors: several moves in your past, numerous different types of jobs, lots of leadership experience (you'll be a junior associate who may report to someone 5+ years younger than you), different advanced degrees that may not mesh in an obvious way with law. The more you have of any of these, the more pause an employer will have before extending an offer.

I think that you are overstating this considerably. People move, for many reason, sometime professionally, sometimes for personal reason. I have lived in more states then many in this forum have visited. In doing so I have developed a track record for getting things done that others have failed to do. Any employer who is so short sighted as to only embrace those that fit their tiny little mold is not an employer worth working for.

[JazzOne]

Any hesitancy they have on this front will be compounded by other factors: several moves in your past, numerous different types of jobs, lots of leadership experience (you'll be a junior associate who may report to someone 5+ years younger than you), different advanced degrees that may not mesh in an obvious way with law. The more you have of any of these, the more pause an employer will have before extending an offer.

I think that you are overstating this considerably. People move, for many reason, sometime professionally, sometimes for personal reason. I have lived in more states then many in this forum have visited. In doing so I have developed a track record for getting things done that others have failed to do. Any employer who is so short sighted as to only embrace those that fit their tiny little mold is not an employer worth working for.

lol

I hope you aren't gunning for biglaw.

[haus]

lol

I hope you aren't gunning for biglaw.

No need for big law.

[JazzOne]

lol

I hope you aren't gunning for biglaw.

No need for big law.

Sure, there's no need, but it sure beats shitlaw.

Edit: It has also been my experience that firms are skeptical of nontrads.

[firemed]

It's difficult to admit that I'd consider choosing a school much further down in the rankings based on quality of life issues on a board that's populated with people who are at a very different point in their lives. But it's very, very hard to justify pulling my kids out of a school that they love (and we love, too) in order to move up the law school rankings.

That is pretty much why I am staying here at the local T2..... but I have found the kids on the board are understanding of the fact that having a kid and a wife one is beholden to complicates things.

Oh, and I am glad y'all started this. I am going to be 33 in a couple weeks. Meh.

ETA: apparently I should have checked how many pages ITT before I went and responded to someone posting on the first page...

[blackmamba76]

Hi all, just came across this thread and I definitely feel at home here. I just turned 35 this month, married with 2 kids, and got 2 more on the way in a couple of months. Hoping to get into LS this fall, but looking more like it would be fall 2012, which means I would be 36 when I do start LS. Probably would moving out of state and wife is definitely on board with that.

Congratulations on your decision to attend -- and having a wife on board with your decision. That's not always the easiest decision for a family to make.

Since you mentioned moving out of state, I thought I'd bring up a point I did not really consider when I was applying to law school. This may or may not apply to you, blackmamba, but I thought it might be something for others in this thread to consider as they choose where to attend.

If you are planning to go the firm route and you are looking in a market outside of the one where your school is located, you are going to have a bit of an uphill battle overcoming employers' preconception that you actually will want to move to the new market. They will be looking for people that are committed to the market for which they are hiring.

Any hesitancy they have on this front will be compounded by other factors: several moves in your past, numerous different types of jobs, lots of leadership experience (you'll be a junior associate who may report to someone 5+ years younger than you), different advanced degrees that may not mesh in an obvious way with law. The more you have of any of these, the more pause an employer will have before extending an offer. That said, there is nothing to say that some employers will see right past all of that if you have a particular skill set they are interested in or you happen to hit it off very well with the interviewers.

All this to say, think seriously about whether there is a good option in the market where you are or where you want to end up. Employers look for reasons to weed people out. An interviewee's geographical background is a major factor they consider. Just something to keep in mind as you consider schools out of state.

Best of luck with your decision, now or later!

I see the sense in what you said, and I've definitely considered that in my choice of possible schools. For one, I've to take my family into consideration whenever I make any decision so in choosing schools I've to make sure I'm comfortable with raising my kids in whatever I move to. With that said, any location where I can raise my kids is an area where I can see myself living and working in for years. There are actually schools that I like but, would not be applying to just because I don't see living and raising my kids there.

[firemed]

I'm a doctor. NOBODY can read my handwriting.

Well played!

Thank you sir

I have to ask... if you are an ER Doctor... why in the hell do you want to go to law school? More debt for a job that is likely to (at best) pay the same?

Or, if you already answered this, can you show me to the right page?

[haus]

lol

I hope you aren't gunning for biglaw.

No need for big law.

Sure, there's no need, but it sure beats shitlaw.

Edit: It has also been my experience that firms are skeptical of nontrads.

If someone wants to make a change in their life, they should take some time to consider the options and weigh the impact of the change upon their life and the lives of their families. By the mere nature of being a non-traditional student you are likely not going to follow the same path as a traditional student (regardless of your field, law, engineering, accounting...). This does not have to be a bad thing, the world is not as cookie cutter as it appears.

Having solid WE, a spine and a track record for success in the real world puts you in a different category then the masses. By trying to bend yourself into a something that you are not is to be aiming at failure before you even get out of the gate. To many people seem eager to undercut their own value instead of embracing the strengths that they bring to the table. Trust me, if you do not respect your own efforts and achievements, I guarantee you that the person that you are negotiating with will not respect them either.

[run26.2]

lol

I hope you aren't gunning for biglaw.

No need for big law.

Sure, there's no need, but it sure beats shitlaw.

Edit: It has also been my experience that firms are skeptical of nontrads.

I agree with this and this was an important point I was trying to convey.

A partner from a V100 looked at my resume, which has a fair amount of leadership experience on it, and told me that hiring partners at firms like his were reading it and thinking to themselves, "Does this person really want to do the work of a first year associate?" Several asked how I would handle working under a younger associate.

I don't want to derail the thread. Just something to think about if you're a non-trad considering moving for law school or weighing whether it is worth it to give up money to go to a better school. If you have a resume that has a diversity of experiences, lots of leadership, or work in a variety of geographical locations, biglaw hiring partners may question your fit at their firm. Some factors that generally should be considered pluses or that helped you get into law school may not work to your advantage in the legal hiring process. Just puttin it out there.

[JazzOne]

lol

I hope you aren't gunning for biglaw.

No need for big law.

Sure, there's no need, but it sure beats shitlaw.

Edit: It has also been my experience that firms are skeptical of nontrads.

If someone wants to make a change in their life, they should take some time to consider the options and weigh the impact of the change upon their life and the lives of their families. By the mere nature of being a non-traditional student you are likely not going to follow the same path as a traditional student (regardless of your field, law, engineering, accounting...). This does not have to be a bad thing, the world is not as cookie cutter as it appears.

Having solid WE, a spine and a track record for success in the real world puts you in a different category then the masses. By trying to bend yourself into a something that you are not is to be aiming at failure before you even get out of the gate. To many people seem eager to undercut their own value instead of embracing the strengths that they bring to the table. Trust me, if you do not respect your own efforts and achievements, I guarantee you that the person that you are negotiating with will not respect them either.

Take note of the post above this by run26.2. He and I aren't making this stuff up. We've both been through the legal hiring process, and we both experienced tension regarding our alternative options. Self-confidence is a good thing, but perhaps you should not so easily dismiss these accounts. I was also highly skeptical of these claims prior to law school. I figured it would be easy for me to get a firm gig given my work history and academic background. I've never had trouble finding jobs or excelling at work. But legal hiring partners aren't looking for that. When I started listening to the naysayers and JDU crowd, that's when I finally landed a biglaw gig. Now, if you don't want biglaw, which it appears you don't, then your argument makes more sense. But I'm not buying it with respect to biglaw firms.

[JazzOne]

lol

I hope you aren't gunning for biglaw.

No need for big law.

Sure, there's no need, but it sure beats shitlaw.

Edit: It has also been my experience that firms are skeptical of nontrads.

I agree with this and this was an important point I was trying to convey.

A partner from a V100 looked at my resume, which has a fair amount of leadership experience on it, and told me that hiring partners at firms like his were reading it and thinking to themselves, "Does this person really want to do the work of a first year associate?" Several asked how I would handle working under a younger associate.

This doesn't surprise me. I had to answer similar questions in my interviews.

If you have a resume that has a diversity of experiences, lots of leadership, or work in a variety of geographical locations, biglaw hiring partners may question your fit at their firm. Some factors that generally should be considered pluses or that helped you get into law school may not work to your advantage in the legal hiring process.

+1

[r6_philly]

Edit: It has also been my experience that firms are skeptical of nontrads.

Does it help if you look like the age of your peers? (even though I am quite a few years senior)

If age is a factor, can I not disclose it, at least initially?

[JazzOne]

Edit: It has also been my experience that firms are skeptical of nontrads.

Does it help if you look like the age of your peers? (even though I am quite a few years senior)

If age is a factor, can I not disclose it, at least initially?

Aren't you gunning for IP. That's a whole other ballgame. lol

Age won't hurt you so much for IP. Graduate degrees will help for IP work, whereas they are virtually meaningless for any other kind of legal work.

[JazzOne]

Also, I should add: I'm not some irrational pessimist. You can definitely find firms that value work experience, but nontrads should be prepared to answer these questions, and they have to understand that the truth isn't necessarily what the firms want to hear.