RECESSION PANIC MEGAPOST: Bad economy threads go here! Forum

[CE2JD]

Well, considering that the founder of this site left a legal career for another field...

[Hyder]

Well, considering that the founder of this site left a legal career for another field...

On what grounds though, it could have been a number of reasons. Perhaps money/economy wasn't one of them.

[Cara]

Interesting apparent contradiction in that article between:

At Texas Wesleyan University School of Law, for instance, officials are predicting an 84 or 85 percent employment rate, within nine months of graduation, among those in the class of 2008 who sought full-time work, reports the Star-Telegram. That compares to 89 percent for the class of 2007, and could drop further for the class of 2009.

and

"I spoke with another student this morning. She knows of no one who has a job upon graduation," says Britt Hadley, 35, a third-year Wesleyan student. "I know of only one."

But then the reporter has an epiphany:

It appears that the employment figures include both legal and nonlegal jobs.

[solo_lawyer]

Well, considering that the founder of this site left a legal career for another field...

On what grounds though, it could have been a number of reasons. Perhaps money/economy wasn't one of them.

why, sure, $$ is hardly ever a career change consideration.(((rolls eyes)))

[CE2JD]

Well, considering that the founder of this site left a legal career for another field...

On what grounds though, it could have been a number of reasons. Perhaps money/economy wasn't one of them.

LOL, you crack me up Hyder.

[RVP11]

Not sure if it's been updated since the layoffs, but the list of where Duke c/o 2010s will be summering in 2009 suggests it's not all doom and gloom out there, at least for the T14.

More people just seem to be filtering down to smaller markets for ~$125k than did before, though I haven't seen a list from a couple years ago for comparison.

[356a]

It is affecting the MBA students too, especially those not at the very top schools:

WSJ article:

With Jobs Tight, M.B.A.s Head for Home


By ALINA DIZIK

After working in public accounting for three years, Joe Fusco, wanted to become an investment banker. So he invested more than $70,000 and two years into an M.B.A.

But as he prepares to graduate from the University of Notre Dame in Indiana next month, Mr. Fusco, 27 years old, hasn't had any luck landing a position in finance. The only solution he has is to go back to his accounting roots. "It's a tough pill to swallow, but I've come to the conclusion that I can't sit and wait and cross my fingers," he says.

The majority of students at top business schools attend the programs as a way to boost their skills to change careers. This year, making that happen has turned into a nearly impossible task. And that means a significant number of soon-to-be grads who entered school back in 2007 are being forced back to their pre-M.B.A. careers in the hopes of finding a job.

"Career switchers are getting hit the hardest," says Kristen Lynas, associate director of career management at Georgetown University's McDonough School of Business. Those looking to switch fields make up the majority of each incoming class at the school, she adds. "When the market is hot, employers are more willing to take the risk ... [now] employers tend to go with the safe choice."
[MBA Jobs] Sean Kelly

Steve Canale, manager of recruiting and staffing services at General Electric Co., in Fairfield, Conn., says that with so many applicants, previous experience is getting a bigger emphasis when the company weeds out candidates. "That's the sweet spot -- people who have industry expertise in the industries that we're strong in," says Mr. Canale, who hires about 120 M.B.A. students each year for a sales and marketing program.

In past years, GE would have been more open to M.B.A.s who were less of a match. But applications for the program grew 30% this year and Mr. Canale was able to be more experience-selective, he says.

With firms like Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearns -- which used to bring on upward of 800 M.B.A.s combined every year -- now defunct, and fewer finance jobs around, more business-school graduates are leaning on their experience to get them in the door. For example, the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business has typically placed 50% of its M.B.A. alumni in finance, most at large investment banks. This year, students in all majors have been turning back to their previous fields to find work, says Char Bennington, Chicago's senior associate director of career management. Ms. Bennington says other industries, like consulting and marketing, are also hiring fewer people and looking for experience.

After Johnson & Johnson didn't extend an offer to Jareer Oweimrin, a second-year M.B.A. at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign who worked as a strategic marketing intern with the company, Mr. Oweimrin is putting his plans to get a health-care marketing role on hold for the time being. He is now trying to capitalize on his background in pharmaceutical sales and is in talks about returning to a sales job at a former employer, a major drug maker. He hopes such a move will eventually help him move into marketing. "The motto here [at school] is 'take what you've got,'" says Mr. Oweimrin, who spent about $70,000 on his degree. "You can't be as picky as you want to be."

Even consulting firms -- known for hiring career switchers -- are looking for M.B.A.s with previous experience to hire.

Brianne Shally, 29, who graduates from Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management this spring, says she feels safer going back to a consulting job in Chicago for Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu, her previous employer, rather than make a career change. "I have a proven track record, if it comes down to names on a board" for a layoff or hiring, says Ms. Shally. She says consulting jobs haven't been easy to land for fellow classmates, though. This year, she says, firms "were not willing to take a risk on students who did not have previous consulting experience."

Patricia Phillips, executive director of career management at University of Rochester's Simon Graduate School of Business, says students are beginning to recognize that these days, it could take two or three career moves to make a switch.

That's how Abhishek Sunkersett is approaching his first post-M.B.A. job. Instead of landing a job in strategy consulting or finance, Mr. Sunkersett, 28, a second-year student at the University of Texas-Austin McCombs School of Business, says his engineering background and technical experience working in the Mumbai office of Deloitte helped land him a position at the Chicago office of Infosys Technologies Ltd., an Indian information-technology services vendor. For now, Mr. Sunkersett says he'll focus on consulting projects involving technology, with hopes of pursuing more strategy-related projects in the firm. "My experience was a big advantage," says Mr. Sunkersett.

But the idea of returning to an old career has some soon-to-be grads questioning the value of their degrees. A traditional post-M.B.A. position increases a degree-holder's salary by 74% according to an annual survey from the Graduate Management Admissions Council.

Besides being unable to use his newly honed marketing skills, Mr. Oweimrin, says he is worried that he'll be earning the same as he did as a pharmaceutical rep -- about $60,000 -- instead of the $100,000 marketing job he expected to land after the M.B.A. program.

And Mr. Fusco says he is less certain his investment in the degree was worthwhile. Many of the auditing positions that he is finding don't require a graduate business degree. "These are positions that I was pretty qualified for even pre-M.B.A," he says.

[Hyder]

Well, considering that the founder of this site left a legal career for another field...

On what grounds though, it could have been a number of reasons. Perhaps money/economy wasn't one of them.

why, sure, $$ is hardly ever a career change consideration.(((rolls eyes)))

I think there is an emoticon for "rolls eyes"

[Hyder]

Well, considering that the founder of this site left a legal career for another field...

On what grounds though, it could have been a number of reasons. Perhaps money/economy wasn't one of them.

LOL, you crack me up Hyder.

[JD2008]

Salary Reality: Many Lawyers Don't Earn Big Bucks
By Mary Flood, Houston Chronicle

Jul. 26--People have a false impression about lawyers -- that they all make six-figure salaries.

With at least three big law firms in Houston announcing this month that they're raising starting pay to $160,000, there's reason for the confusion.

But the reality is that first-year graduates from the three Houston law schools make as little as $30,000 a year and have a median salary of around $70,000.

Those outside the profession aren't the only ones with unrealistic impressions of lawyer pay.

A lot of law students, seduced by publicity about high-end salaries and some wishful thinking, aren't grounded about legal salaries either.

"Every student thinks they are going to be in the top 5 percent of the class and make $150,000. The reality is they are not. If the grades are not there, the money does not follow," said Andreaus Boise, career service coordinator for the Thurgood Marshall School of Law at Texas Southern University.

Students get upset about this often enough that Boise keeps Rolaids on her desk for them. Another law school career adviser says she keeps tissues on her desk for the inevitable tears.

Feeling the curve The top salaries go to law students from the prestige schools or those who have the very best grades at other schools.

Others, even some who have enjoyed earlier academic success, might need to lower their expectations.

"These students have done well their whole life. This is the first time for a lot of them that they feel a forced curve," said Rhonda Beassie, assistant dean of career development at the University of Houston Law Center. "A healthy percentage of the students don't get the message until they go bid for a job."

The law students who go to the top-tier firms will make $120,000 to $165,000 annually, but that will be the top 10 percent or less, according to the local law school career offices. Those in midsize firms will make roughly $55,000 to $80,000. At small firms or government jobs, they get $40,000 to $60,000. Solo practitioners may make $30,000 or even live off loans when they start out.

Certainly with experience, these lawyers should increase their income and eventually most of them will get past $100,000, but not that far past it. The median income or 50th percentile, for all attorneys in Texas was $113,300 in 2005, the last time the State Bar of Texas conducted its survey.

In the Houston area, the Bar found the median income for probate and estate attorneys was $78,333, for real estate lawyers it was $88,750, and for civil trial lawyers it was $187,500.

The price of going solo "Students who go out and get a first-year salary of $45,000 are blown away. Their expectations were glamorized," said Reginald Green, the assistant dean of career resources at South Texas College of Law.

The median income for members of the South Texas class of 2006 is $70,000, and the average is $82,000, he said their survey shows.

Green said expectations may be inflated because law schools market themselves in the brightest light and the media cover the highest salaries.

Boise said the TSU law school produces many solo practitioners.

"A lot of students hang out their own shingle. They go to the courthouse to get court appointments. They start at $35,000, sometimes more, sometimes less," she said.

A fresh start Melissa Lanier and her law partner, Elizabeth Pagel, graduated from TSU law school in May 2006 and they set up a partnership in Humble -- Lanier & Pagel. Their first-year income will probably be about $30,000 each, tops.

"We think we are doing well. We thought there might be no money in our own pocket for a year or two," said Lanier, who practices bankruptcy law, while Pagel focuses on family law.

The partners have hustled business by networking, distributing fliers, attending seminars and placing phone books ads.

"We sent out announcement cards to everyone we had ever met in our lives," Lanier said.

"It is funny, even my husband thought he'd have a wife making big bucks. That's not automatic," said Lanier, 40, who is making the law a second career after working in marketing. She is delighted with her progress.

Living a little So is Amber Lanvin, a May 2005 UH law school grad, making about $53,000 at the small bankruptcy law firm Swindell & Associates. She tried a couple of other small firms before she found the right fit.

"The people at the top of the class were really driven to be there. But I work about 50 hours a week. I'm not working their 80 hours a week," said Lanvin, 27. "I get to hang with my fiance, have a nice dinner, live a little."

Ryan Peterson, a May 2006 graduate of South Texas, makes about $50,000 doing mostly traffic court work for the Citizen Law Firm.

"No question that there are some people who go to law school thinking they'll get $100,000 at their first job even though they can't argue their way out of a paper bag," said Peterson, 28, who would like to move to more serious criminal cases.

'It's worth it...' Amy Allen, a May 2006 UH law school grad, is practicing family law at Myres, Dale & Associates.

She didn't have the grades to make the big bucks and earns less than $60,000, but says she likes getting hands-on experience with clients and in court.

"I'm literally learning something new every day," Allen said.

"Every day it seems some friend thinks I'm making more than I do. They say, 'Come see me in Florida.' I say I can't afford it, and they are surprised," said Allen, 35. "I'm living paycheck to paycheck. I don't have a new BMW. But I love my job. It's worth it to me."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/bus ... 00104.html

[Cleareyes]

Not every lawyer makes huge money right out of law school? Holy shit! But Santa Claus is still real, right? RIGHT?

[djshack]

Not a "bad economy" article given that it's not about the economy and not recent (there's not even a year on it).

But, good example of the fact that people who aren't going to law school just for the money can still get job satisfaction without a $160k BIGLAW job. More positive than negative (and common sense).

[JD2008]

The article was actually written in the summer of 2007, right when the firms in Texas started increasing its starting salaries to $160K.

But it provides personal stories of people who are struggling even when the economy was good for lawyers.

[djshack]

The article was actually written in the summer of 2007, right when the firms in Texas started increasing its starting salaries to $160K.

But it provides personal stories of people who are struggling even when the economy was good for lawyers.

Struggling?

"Every day it seems some friend thinks I'm making more than I do. They say, 'Come see me in Florida.' I say I can't afford it, and they are surprised," said Allen, 35. "I'm living paycheck to paycheck. I don't have a new BMW. But I love my job. It's worth it to me."

Maybe not rich, but that doesn't necessarily mean "stuggling." And how many BIGLAW associates making $160k love their jobs?

[JD2008]

"But the reality is that first-year graduates from the three Houston law schools make as little as $30,000 a year and have a median salary of around $70,000."

Having $100K+ in loans with this salary range would make a lot of folks struggle.

[djshack]

"But the reality is that first-year graduates from the three Houston law schools make as little as $30,000 a year and have a median salary of around $70,000."

Having $100K+ in loans with this salary range would make a lot of folks struggle.

$70k with $100k+ in loans wouldn't be so bad. I live paycheck to paycheck currently (making significantly less than that, and make lots of debt payments), but I wouldn't say I "struggle." I eat out, I go out on weekends, I live in one of the most expensive cities in the U.S., and I enjoy myself.

Perhaps, if you want to live in a Manhattan high rise, than yes, you would struggle.

[stab master arson]

Reading this thread is like watching a tennis match where no one wins.

['04 Grad]

First of all, the assumption that because the median is $70K that it's safe to assume you'll make $70K is wrong. Law grads don't typically make salaries in the middle. A few are on the high end and the majority are on the low end.

Second, don't talk about debt until you've actually experienced it. I've done $60K with $120K in loans and I didn't struggle in that I could eat but I couldn't make a full contribution to my 401K. I couldn't buy a home. I couldn't build up my savings. In short, it was okay for someone right out of school but it was no way to start a family. Luckily I could leave the legal profession and now make a lot more money so my student loan payments aren't quite so onerous. But it would be really nice to have that extra $900/month.

[rayiner]

Whether $60-$70k with $100k in loans == struggling depends on where you live. In Texas, it's probably not "struggling" much at all. I make around that here in Atlanta and I've got around $2k/month after rent, food, utilities, going out, etc. Take out $1k/month for loan payments, and you still have enough to start a family, especially if your SO works too.

Also, remember that Texas is CHEAP. $60k in Houston is $64k in Atlanta, $92k in DC, and $105k in NYC.

['04 Grad]

Whether $60-$70k with $100k in loans == struggling depends on where you live. In Texas, it's probably not "struggling" much at all. I make around that here in Atlanta and I've got around $2k/month after rent, food, utilities, going out, etc. Take out $1k/month for loan payments, and you still have enough to start a family, especially if your SO works too.

Also, remember that Texas is CHEAP. $60k in Houston is $64k in Atlanta, $92k in DC, and $105k in NYC.

But we're not talking about $60-$70K with $100K in loans. It's more like $55K with $120K in loans and for some people $35K.

[lawfool]

http://www.elsblog.org/.shared/image.ht ... imodal.jpg

The first peak is $40-$50k. I would say that $40-60k makes up 70% of the below median salaries.

More than half of legal salaries were above $62k. Looks like 20% of salaries fall between $62 and $100k with 30% in six figures.

Anyone have data from this? What happened to good old bar graphs.

[sbalive]

http://www.elsblog.org/.shared/image.ht ... imodal.jpg

The first peak is $40-$50k. I would say that $40-60k makes up 70% of the below median salaries.

More than half of legal salaries were above $62k. Looks like 20% of salaries fall between $62 and $100k with 30% in six figures.

Anyone have data from this? What happened to good old bar graphs.

It comes from here:
http://www.nalp.org/apictureworth1000words

with a link to an accompanying press release. Why would a bar chart help?

[lawfool]

http://www.elsblog.org/.shared/image.ht ... imodal.jpg

The first peak is $40-$50k. I would say that $40-60k makes up 70% of the below median salaries.

More than half of legal salaries were above $62k. Looks like 20% of salaries fall between $62 and $100k with 30% in six figures.

Anyone have data from this? What happened to good old bar graphs.

It comes from here:
http://www.nalp.org/apictureworth1000words

with a link to an accompanying press release. Why would a bar chart help?

I can make approximations and look at the big picture with that graph. But what % makes $10-15k, $15-20k, $75-80k? I would like to see % numbers in $5k intervals instead of a solid line which makes it a lot tougher to analyze.

Unless I am missing something...

[rayiner]

Whether $60-$70k with $100k in loans == struggling depends on where you live. In Texas, it's probably not "struggling" much at all. I make around that here in Atlanta and I've got around $2k/month after rent, food, utilities, going out, etc. Take out $1k/month for loan payments, and you still have enough to start a family, especially if your SO works too.

Also, remember that Texas is CHEAP. $60k in Houston is $64k in Atlanta, $92k in DC, and $105k in NYC.

But we're not talking about $60-$70K with $100K in loans. It's more like $55K with $120K in loans and for some people $35K.

I wasn't really talking about job prospects from Houston law schools. Just addressing your general point about the livability of $60k/year with $100k of debt. I don't buy $70k as a median salary at any Texas school aside from UT and maybe SMU...

['04 Grad]

http://www.elsblog.org/.shared/image.ht ... imodal.jpg

The first peak is $40-$50k. I would say that $40-60k makes up 70% of the below median salaries.

More than half of legal salaries were above $62k. Looks like 20% of salaries fall between $62 and $100k with 30% in six figures.

Anyone have data from this? What happened to good old bar graphs.

If more than half of starting legal salaries were above $62K then why didn't more than half of my law school classmates (T25) make more than $62K?

Forget the published stats. Starting salaries for the firms that hire more recent law school grads are between $35K and $60K. I know this because I interviewed at these firms. I talked to my friends about what they were being offered. I talked with career services (once you're already in they give you much better information about starting salaries than when you're a 0L).