ATL's Law School Rankings Forum

[toothbrush]

Either way, CoA (tuition and CoL) should be included not because it makes the rankings "accurate," but because it provides incentives to lower costs.

That's the only good argument for it, but I like that argument a lot. Good call.

Meh, I don't think it produces much of an incentive since you will pretty much have all the top schools entering an unspoken gentleman's agreement to have similar tuition. It really only rewards and thus incentivizes not to go up schools that are already cheap (i.e. a lot of state schools). But that isn't a whole ton of schools and I think those schools are committed to not having outrageous tuition regardless of any ranking system.

With schools like NU ( IIRC) promising to NOT raise tuition do you think that gentlemen's agreement (which I believe is currently in place..) will hold and schools will stop raising ?

[Kronk]

Either way, CoA (tuition and CoL) should be included not because it makes the rankings "accurate," but because it provides incentives to lower costs.

That's the only good argument for it, but I like that argument a lot. Good call.

Meh, I don't think it produces much of an incentive since you will pretty much have all the top schools entering an unspoken gentleman's agreement to have similar tuition. It really only rewards and thus incentivizes not to go up schools that are already cheap (i.e. a lot of state schools). But that isn't a whole ton of schools and I think those schools are committed to not having outrageous tuition regardless of any ranking system.

Yeah, good point. That's kind of what I meant in my second part of that post. Tuition is pretty equal across the board, likely because School B knows they can get away with higher tuition as long as School A is doing it. Doesn't seem likely to change.

[bk1]

With schools like NU ( IIRC) promising to NOT raise tuition do you think that gentlemen's agreement (which I believe is currently in place..) will hold and schools will stop raising ?

NU promised to "only" raise it by 3.5% (which is still thousands of dollars). I think schools will generally try to push if they can but they are getting close to the limit of what their applicants are willing to bear. Cal lowered its effective tuition by $8 last year and didn't tell a soul, but I think that Cal is at least a little different because it is nominally public.

[Renne Walker]

Take a step back for a moment. Isn’t the primary (and perhaps only) objective of rankings... validate the ability of a school to secure its students a good opportunity? If I had been accepted into H/Y/S would have I cared about all the extraneous BS….no! You go here, get good grades, here it what happens. Median grades or strikeout, here is what happens. It is that simple.

At some level, tier-whatever, the rankings will not help you... you’re on your own to figure it out… one giant cluster free-for-all.

[Yukos]

I don't think cost will have much effect on the rankings of the T14, but where it might start to change things is lower down. If the relatively good deals like LSU and BYU start getting recognition -- and, as a consequence, more/better applicants -- it will put pressure on their peers to compete on price. These non-T20s that charge as much as Harvard (fucking American) are the real thieves anyway.

[20141023]

.

[Blessedassurance]

it is possible to live way beneath the amounts schools officially list for things like rent, books, etc. my school budgets over 1000 for books and i spent 50 bucks total on books second semester of 1l.

??

some schools happen to have organizations that lend free books...

[rickgrimes69]

it is possible to live way beneath the amounts schools officially list for things like rent, books, etc. my school budgets over 1000 for books and i spent 50 bucks total on books second semester of 1l.

??

some schools happen to have organizations that lend free books...

Saying you only spent $50 on books, without mentioning that you just spent all your time reading the reserve copies in the library, is a tad disingenuous.

[Blessedassurance]

Saying you only spent $50 on books, without mentioning that you just spent all your time reading the reserve copies in the library, is a tad disingenuous.

i didn't read the reserve copies in libraries, i just told you above that you can specifically borrow books from some student organizations at certain schools for the whole semester. combine that with the fact that some classes at certain schools don't have textbooks and you could spend $0 on books a semester.

"i traveled from boston to new york for $1"

there is nothing disingenuous about the above statement simply because it fails to attach an explanation that the author of the above statement took advantage of promotional prices from megabus or whatever.

[bk1]

"i traveled from boston to new york for $1"

there is nothing disingenuous about the above statement simply because it fails to attach an explanation that the author of the above statement took advantage of promotional prices from megabus or whatever.

I'm not sure you know what this word means.

[Blessedassurance]

"i traveled from boston to new york for $1"

there is nothing disingenuous about the above statement simply because it fails to attach an explanation that the author of the above statement took advantage of promotional prices from megabus or whatever.

I'm not sure you know what this word means.

go on...humor me

[rickgrimes69]

"i traveled from boston to new york for $1"

there is nothing disingenuous about the above statement simply because it fails to attach an explanation that the author of the above statement took advantage of promotional prices from megabus or whatever.

I'm not sure you know what this word means.

go on...humor me

Disingenuous: (adjective) Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.

[sinfiery]

Saying you only spent $50 on books, without mentioning that you just spent all your time reading the reserve copies in the library, is a tad disingenuous.

i didn't read the reserve copies in libraries, i just told you above that you can specifically borrow books from some student organizations at certain schools for the whole semester. combine that with the fact that some classes at certain schools don't have textbooks and you could spend $0 on books a semester.

"i traveled from boston to new york for $1"

there is nothing disingenuous about the above statement simply because it fails to attach an explanation that the author of the above statement took advantage of promotional prices from megabus or whatever.

Your presence is requested by the Phoenix School of Law in this thread
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=209190

[MCL Law Dean]

Take a step back for a moment. Isn’t the primary (and perhaps only) objective of rankings... validate the ability of a school to secure its students a good opportunity?

At some level, tier-whatever, the rankings will not help you... you’re on your own to figure it out… one giant cluster free-for-all.

A new website reported today in NLJ for creating your own rankings based on employment opportunities . . . customize by selecting the factors most important to you . . . well designed . . . helpful?

http://educatingtomorrowslawyers.du.edu/law-jobs

[Blessedassurance]

"i traveled from boston to new york for $1"

there is nothing disingenuous about the above statement simply because it fails to attach an explanation that the author of the above statement took advantage of promotional prices from megabus or whatever.

I'm not sure you know what this word means.

go on...humor me

Disingenuous: (adjective) Not candid...

no shit.

how does that affect my matter-of-fact statement?

[BigZuck]

Is Blessedassurance crazy?

[Renne Walker]

Take a step back for a moment. Isn’t the primary (and perhaps only) objective of rankings... validate the ability of a school to secure its students a good opportunity?

At some level, tier-whatever, the rankings will not help you... you’re on your own to figure it out… one giant cluster free-for-all.

A new website reported today in NLJ for creating your own rankings based on employment opportunities . . . customize by selecting the factors most important to you . . . well designed . . . helpful?

http://educatingtomorrowslawyers.du.edu/law-jobs

Thanks... it is interesting... still playing with it. The one factor that wrecks some schools (especially UVA) is when school funded jobs are not included. A bit surprised that Ithaca was usually the best option for the state of New York. Stanford usually topped Harvard and Yale. No matter how I checked the criteria options Penn was always the most attractive choice.

Overall, aside from nitpicking, the choices are pretty much as one would suspect. I would think this is helpful for someone trying to make a regional selection.

[06102016]

..

[MCL Law Dean]

http://educatingtomorrowslawyers.du.edu/law-jobs

Thanks... it is interesting... still playing with it.

Overall, aside from nitpicking, the choices are pretty much as one would suspect. I would think this is helpful for someone trying to make a regional selection.

I agree. For example, seeing how many TLSers have multiple WLs (and acceptances) this might be time well spent to do some small group comparisons for "down-tier" decisions. Not as much fun as trolling for ATL flames . . . but probably more useful.

[20141023]

.

[MCL Law Dean]

I may be old . . . but I do have a college sophomore and a HS Jr teenager who provides social media tutoring.

[Renne Walker]

I may be old . . . but I do have a college sophomore and a HS Jr teenager who provides social media tutoring.

+1. Cool.

[Big Dog]

Take a step back for a moment. Isn’t the primary (and perhaps only) objective of rankings... validate the ability of a school to secure its students a good opportunity? If I had been accepted into H/Y/S would have I cared about all the extraneous BS….no!

At what price point does it not become "extraneous"?

Would you pay $100k/yr for H, without blinking an eye? $150k?

How about CCN?

[Renne Walker]

Take a step back for a moment. Isn’t the primary (and perhaps only) objective of rankings... validate the ability of a school to secure its students a good opportunity? If I had been accepted into H/Y/S would have I cared about all the extraneous BS….no!

At what price point does it not become "extraneous"?

Would you pay $100k/yr for H, without blinking an eye? $150k?

How about CCN?

CCN is fine, IF you can hang in there against some pretty talented cohorts, then yeah, your annual $160K compensation pretty much makes the extra expenditure extraneous. Plus, there is the SA income — if you don’t blow it all Bergdorf Goodman.

[PDaddy]

Meh... I don't think you understand what I am getting at though. Including CoA in the ranking criteria is definitely TTT methodology, but anyone with half a brain shouldn't be basing their decision on all-encompassing rankings anyway. As I stated above, including CoA in the rankings (and making it count for something more than ~1%) gives law schools another way to improve their overall ranking by becoming more "cost efficient." They can do this by either 1) lowering tuition, or 2) providing more affordable housing for students in expensive areas.

You make some good points. For argument's sake, I want to bite on one particular issue. Would the artificial inertia that leads to lower tuition be a bad thing? We have seen how the temptation to game the rankings has caused an emphasis on meaningless inputs. For once, schools should be forced to game the rankings for a worthwhile cause: lowering tuition and overall COL.

NOTE: Had to resurrect this one.