TLS is a mindless echo chamber Forum

[Samara]

Wow, +1s from both rad and romo. I have a bright TLS future ahead of me.

Would you say that you like their approval? Would you go so far as to subconsciously agree with what they say? Would you then repeat it?

Nope, not at all. They have proven themselves to be two of the most well-informed posters in the on-topic forums, but I still don't take what they say at face value and corroborate with sources outside TLS as much as possible. Nice try though.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

But actually the majority of people on the poll have not agreed with you...

It is pretty split-- again, T-25 people who dominate this thread and really don't know a lot about Tech/CU/ U of State and how that hiring works are frequent posters and so it appears one-sided, but it isn't. Finally, for the 4 millionth time, this was a Manhattan to Ark hypo, talking about if ties were overstated when considering state schools. Rad admitted they were tie-breakers. First thing anyone hears is "ooh where are you "ties"?" This should be a far lesser consideration over "where do you want to live," which was the groupthink three years ago.

"ties" in this context are overstated, bromulus.

The way you are reading the poll is bizarre. Only 19 people agree with you. 68 people said they're not overstated or had the good sense to admit that they don't know.[/quote]

Read the poll again.[/quote]

Huh? Here are the results as of right now:

Yes-"ties" are an accurate, albeit recent discovery by TLS. [ 37 ]
No-"ties," along with 40% of everything on this site = mindless bullshit [ 19 ]
I don't know, but "ties" may be overstated [ 11 ]
I for realz don't know [ 21 ]

Yes, ties are important + I don't know + I don't know. 37 + 11 +21 = 68
No, ties are not important = 19[/quote]


Again?

Dude. 11 people said ties are overstated, 19 said ties were bullshit.

37 to 30, with 21 I dunno.

Pretty split, but the plurally of people in who voted did not agree with you, which is insane considering that "ties" are the first thing you and your kind vomit on every thread.

Ok this was the last fail for me. I'm going to go enjoy the weather, have at it.

[rad lulz]

poasted on a new page







Also lol @ the poll for the reasons Romo mentioned.

[romothesavior]

Wow, +1s from both rad and romo. I have a bright TLS future ahead of me.

Would you say that you like their approval? Would you go so far as to subconsciously agree with what they say? Would you then repeat it?

[Ludo!]

Dude. 11 people said ties are overstated, 19 said ties were bullshit.

37 to 30, with 21 I dunno.

Pretty split, but the plurally of people in who voted did not agree with you, which is insane considering that "ties" are the first thing you and your kind vomit on every thread.

Ok this was the last fail for me. I'm going to go enjoy the weather, have at it.

Nah, I'm counting the "I don't knows" on our side because they're from 0ls and 1ls who honestly don't know yet. But once they go through the hiring process they will.

[rad lulz]

I have a feeling there would not be too many 2Ls and 3Ls agreeing with mrwarre, tedalbany, pdaddy, McDuff, Gail, MTBike and bearsgrl have said on the matter (both ITT and elsewhere).

The company you keep...

Ah yes, pdaddy of the "white people smell like buttermilk" fame

[Gail]

how do you people make these threads explode? am I at 1000 yet?

[Richie Tenenbaum]

No you didn't, because what is at issue is getting something your 2L summer. If you don't find something in the region your 1L summer, that's a huge red flag. If you got a 1L biglaw SA, then probably is most likely solved but this won't happen for most people. If you do what everyone else is doing (judicial internship/PI/RA/small firms/summer classes) than that's not a very compelling story by itself about why you want to stay in the area. I know someone at UT with good grades, who was in Texas in 1L summer, and whiffed on 2L OCI. Why? Biggest reason is that this person didn't have many Texas ties and that made firms paranoid.

You are fighting a losing battle. Just stop.

Holy crap dude. I have said a million times that people at schools like UT have to worry about this.

The entire point of the thread is geared towards, you know, the majority of law students. UT kids have options. Not from TX and going to UT? Hmm. Suspicious.

Not from Idaho and going to U of Idaho? Welcome to Idaho!! We've been here for years and love it!

Missing the point of the thread 100 times is still missing the point of the thread?

I read when you said it before and it's still as dumb as the first time you said it. If you want to know my reasons for ignoring it--you are making two big assumptions:
1) That law firms in fly over states realize that their flagship state school has a pretty shitty placement outside of that region, and think that the only reason why students would go there is b/c they want to practice there after law school.
2) Students attend lower ranked schools for the reason of practicing in that area. (The mantra of "attend the highest school possible" was and still is a pretty dominant rationale for choosing schools. Tons of ill-informed law students attend law schools in areas they have no desire to practice in b/c it was ranked 10 spots higher than the local school they got accepted to.)

Plenty of law firms in Idaho will assume that students with good grades at U of Idaho can go elsewhere. Why? B/c the majority of lawyers don't realize how shitty the economy is, older lawyers don't realize the times are different, and many lawyers probably have an inflated view of U of Idaho. The median students at U of Idaho will be competing with people with connections in the area. Bottom of the class at U of Idaho is just screwed in general.

I already said in my first post in this thread that the mantra of "ties" can be used as a one size fits all type mantra, which doesn't always hold true. But in some insular markets, attending a law school in an area might not be enough to convince interviewers.

[Gail]

Can this thread be re-titled as the great Ties debate and stuck?





1000 bitches. yeah. regular poster.

[rad lulz]

I read when you said it before and it's still as dumb as the first time you said it. If you want to know my reasons for ignoring it--you are making two big assumptions:
1) That law firms in fly over states realize that their flagship state school has a pretty shitty placement outside of that region, and think that the only reason why students would go there is b/c they want to practice there after law school.
2) Students attend lower ranked schools for the reason of practicing in that area. (The mantra of "attend the highest school possible" was and still is a pretty dominant rationale for choosing schools. Tons of ill-informed law students attend law schools in areas they have no desire to practice in b/c it was ranked 10 spots higher than the local school they got accepted to.)

Plenty of law firms in Idaho will assume that students with good grades at U of Idaho can go elsewhere. Why? B/c the majority of lawyers don't realize how shitty the economy is, older lawyers don't realize the times are different, and many lawyers probably have an inflated view of U of Idaho. The median students at U of Idaho will be competing with people with connections in the area. Bottom of the class at U of Idaho is just screwed in general.

I already said in my first post in this thread that the mantra of "ties" can be used as a one size fits all type mantra, which doesn't always hold true. But in some insular markets, attending a law school in an area might not be enough to convince interviewers.

This.

Some of LRM's arguments to the contrary have reached the level of sublime idiocy.

But hey, he's older and wiser than us and our newfangled "experience" of "2L and 3L" hiring, aka "the hiring that matters."

[beachbum]

This is turning into the West Side Story of TLS.

[keg411]

Ties are important for both where you go to school and for firm hiring. I say this as someone who applied to schools all over the country, went to my local school for 1L, and transferred to a T14 in state I never set foot in before I transferred.

First -- it's important for when you're applying, because like Samara said you really should have some type of plan. Why travel halfway across the country for some TTT (and in this I include most T1's) that is going to basically get you a lot of shitty small law opportunities on 150k of debt. One reason to pick your home state school is that it's usually your cheapest option and it's usually your most comfortable option. I visited a bunch of schools all over the country during my cycle and in the end, a light bulb clicked and I was like, "why pay $80k more for a school with the same shitty prospects that I can get at home?"

Second -- it really is important for hiring. And let's not even talk about BigLaw hiring. Part of the reason I went to my home school is because I knew if I got shiTTTy grades (which you should just assume), I'd have an easier time getting a job there. Why? My parents are lawyers, their friends are lawyers, they know judges, they know people who know people who could get me a job. And I'd bet 99% of people who are applying to law school has a family member or a family friend with some connection to an attorney in their hometown that can certainly give you a leg up. When you know you have a 50% shot to even GET a legal job at all, why would you take a risk and go somewhere where you don't have people who can help you out.

So yea, "ties" and going to school in your hometown are important. Law school is for adults who want to be part of a profession. Not for trying to run away to some random city you've never been to because it would be "cool". I did that for my 2L year, and trust me, it can absolutely suck at times.

Also, I'm old as fuck.

[romothesavior]

This is turning into the West Side Story of TLS.

More like Gangs of New York.

Just saw that movie for the first time this past weekend.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

This is turning into the West Side Story of TLS.

[Gail]

First -- it's important for when you're applying, because like Samara said you really should have some type of plan. Why travel halfway across the country for some TTT (and in this I include most T1's) that is going to basically get you a lot of shitty small law opportunities on 150k of debt. One reason to pick your home state school is that it's usually your cheapest option and it's usually your most comfortable option. I visited a bunch of schools all over the country during my cycle and in the end, a light bulb clicked and I was like, "why pay $80k more for a school with the same shitty prospects that I can get at home?"

Second -- it really is important for hiring. And let's not even talk about BigLaw hiring. Part of the reason I went to my home school is because I knew if I got shiTTTy grades (which you should just assume), I'd have an easier time getting a job there. Why? My parents are lawyers, their friends are lawyers, they know judges, they know people who know people who could get me a job. And I'd bet 99% of people who are applying to law school has a family member or a family friend with some connection to an attorney in their hometown that can certainly give you a leg up. When you know you have a 50% shot to even GET a legal job at all, why would you take a risk and go somewhere where you don't have people who can help you out.

So yea, "ties" and going to school in your hometown are important. Law school is for adults who want to be part of a profession. Not for trying to run away to some random city you've never been to because it would be "cool". I did that for my 2L year, and trust me, it can absolutely suck at times.

Also, I'm old as fuck.

I realize that this was narrow and you did qualify by saying usually, but a few things for others to think about.

Not everyone wants to be in their homestate. Some people hate their homestates. That doesn't seem rare to me. I'm certain I'm not the only one who desperately wants out of my hometown. Not every homestate school flagship is cheap either. 37k at Illinois is not cheap, for example.


It's probably a terrible idea to run off to an area where you've never been. But if you have significant family connections to a region, have spent significant time in that region through your life, even if you've never lived there, I think that someone making the decision to relocate isn't just doing it on a whim. Maybe firms don't agree, but it's really depressing to think that you can't move somewhere you've always wanted to be just because the only time you can say you're moving there permanently is through law school.

[keg411]

The problem is that most 0L's who are making thread with schools in 10 different regions ARE just relocating on a whim. Also, if you really have that significant of a family connection to the other place and want to get out of your home state, go try and get a job there and work for a few years and then go to law school. You don't need law school to relocate if you're serious about it.

[Gail]

The problem is that most 0L's who are making thread with schools in 10 different regions ARE just relocating on a whim. Also, if you really have that significant of a family connection to the other place and want to get out of your home state, go try and get a job there and work for a few years and then go to law school. You don't need law school to relocate if you're serious about it.

Regional UG = Regional employment prospects. Same as law school.

I know the next option. Retake.

But not everyone is capable of retaking and doing better on the LSAT. Sometimes you just hit your ceiling. And if you have an acceptance + a lot of money, you can kiss the same package goodbye the next time around if you reapply. Probably wouldn't even be admitted.

Not everything is so cut and dry as retake/reapply or go to local school.

[ahnhub]

So would you say that someone who comes from a place where there isn't really any kind of big legal market is basically at a significant disadvantage to someone from, say, Chicago or Minneapolis or Nashville? Is the person from small-town southern Illinois who goes to Penn basically screwed when it comes to secondary markets, or can he stretch it to maybe include Chicago or St. Louis?

[keg411]

I didn't say re-take. I said move out to said place and apply for jobs. Using law school to get out of your hometown is foolish when there are ways you can go without taking on debt (and if you really have significant family member out there, crash with them while job hunting). I don't see why that's such a big deal. If you really want to leave, then leave... no one gives a crap about your undergrad, trust me. Don't use law school as a crutch.

[Gail]

I didn't say re-take. I said move out to said place and apply for jobs. Using law school to get out of your hometown is foolish when there are ways you can go without taking on debt (and if you really have significant family member out there, crash with them while job hunting). I don't see why that's such a big deal. If you really want to leave, then leave... no one gives a crap about your undergrad, trust me. Don't use law school as a crutch.

But they do care about it if they're law firms?

I'm sorry. But I've tried exactly what you've suggested. It isn't working out too hot. I don't have the funds to crash on a relatives couch while I look for a job.

[cinephile]

I'm sorry. But I've tried exactly what you've suggested. It isn't working out too hot. I don't have the funds to crash on a relatives couch while I look for a job.

I have a friend who was unemployed two years and basically did just that. Couch surfed her way across the country (staying with perfect strangers, riding greyhound) for a year applying for work every where she went. She had an amazing stay wwoofing and finding other ways to pay her way until she got her current job. I guess it's not for everybody.

[Gail]

I'm sorry. But I've tried exactly what you've suggested. It isn't working out too hot. I don't have the funds to crash on a relatives couch while I look for a job.

I have a friend who was unemployed two years and basically did just that. Couch surfed her way across the country (staying with perfect strangers, riding greyhound) for a year applying for work every where she went. She had an amazing stay wwoofing and finding other ways to pay her way until she got her current job. I guess it's not for everybody.

I have real pretty eyes. I'm sure I'd find myself dead in a week.

Plus I probably have more debt than others here.

[stratocophic]

So would you say that someone who comes from a place where there isn't really any kind of big legal market is basically at a significant disadvantage to someone from, say, Chicago or Minneapolis or Nashville? Is the person from small-town southern Illinois who goes to Penn basically screwed when it comes to secondary markets, or can he stretch it to maybe include Chicago or St. Louis?

You can usually stretch to the nearest metro if you're not really "from somewhere," but depends on the market. StL is a tough one because it's particularly insular. Other secondary markets are usually more open, don't know enough about Chicago to comment. Coming from Penn should put you in a good position given the reputation.

[ResJudicata738]

Didn't want to take time to read through the entire chain, but in my mind "ties" go hand-in-hand with NETWORKING. Granted, not everyone is naturally disposed to charm attorneys, judges, and etc. into liking them. However, I firmly believe that--no matter where you go to school--if you make a sincere effort to meet other professionals you can establish "ties" to the employment NETWORK(s) that operate in that area. Unfortunately, it seems networking is not enough these days. No matter how much someone likes you or thinks you will contribute a good work product, if there is no money to pay you then they can't offer you a job.

[keg411]

I'm sorry. But I've tried exactly what you've suggested. It isn't working out too hot. I don't have the funds to crash on a relatives couch while I look for a job.

I have a friend who was unemployed two years and basically did just that. Couch surfed her way across the country (staying with perfect strangers, riding greyhound) for a year applying for work every where she went. She had an amazing stay wwoofing and finding other ways to pay her way until she got her current job. I guess it's not for everybody.

I have real pretty eyes. I'm sure I'd find myself dead in a week.

Plus I probably have more debt than others here.

Then get a job at home and pay off your debt. Taking out more debt for law school isn't the answer because the likelihood is that you won't be able to repay it and you'll be stuck on IBR (unless it blows up). It seems like you just want to hear what you want to hear and won't consider anything else.