T10 for free or skip law school to teach Forum

[jnwa]

OP has found a profession he/she enjoys, is good at, and leaves for considerable free time outside of work. I'd guess 90% of folks never find this in life, in any profession. As for the percentage of law school graduates who can say those things about their jobs, I'd say that at least 95% cannot say what the OP says about teaching.

I assumed it was a compensation issue. But I guess OP never explicitly claimed the pay was bad.

[A. Nony Mouse]

His credibility doesn't hinge on the existence of a thread where he advises someone to go to law school.

no but it helps prove he isn't biased, which is how he comes off in every single thread

Everyone is biased. And this isn't your thread so don't derail the discussion.

OP, to be honest, I think both decisions are defensible and neither puts you in a terrible position. I think you could get back to teaching if you try law school and don't like it, and I think law school will always be there if you decide to try teaching for a while longer. It's true that you have the full ride now and can't guarantee that for the future (my understanding is that you can defer an acceptance but most schools won't/can't defer money), but you're not going to become a worse candidate by taking some more time off. One question is how much longer your LSAT score is good for, I suppose.

I would tend toward continuing teaching because then you will know whether you enjoy teaching period v. teaching where you are now, and won't have lingering regrets on that account. It seems to me the slightly less expensive path than doing it the other way around. But I really do think that both options are defensible and so the good thing is that you don't have a clearly wrong choice.

[Gifted Hands]

His credibility doesn't hinge on the existence of a thread where he advises someone to go to law school.

no but it helps prove he isn't biased, which is how he comes off in every single thread

Everyone is biased. And this isn't your thread so don't derail the discussion.

OP, to be honest, I think both decisions are defensible and neither puts you in a terrible position. I think you could get back to teaching if you try law school and don't like it, and I think law school will always be there if you decide to try teaching for a while longer. It's true that you have the full ride now and can't guarantee that for the future (my understanding is that you can defer an acceptance but most schools won't/can't defer money), but you're not going to become a worse candidate by taking some more time off. One question is how much longer your LSAT score is good for, I suppose.

I would tend toward continuing teaching because then you will know whether you enjoy teaching period v. teaching where you are now, and won't have lingering regrets on that account. It seems to me the slightly less expensive path than doing it the other way around. But I really do think that both options are defensible and so the good thing is that you don't have a clearly wrong choice.

This is a good post OP; nony is one of the least biased posters here

[jbagelboy]

I think the question about desire to become a lawyer is more important than the financial considerations. Neither of these are particularly high-EV trajectories compared to alternatives (although law is indisuptably higher than teaching), so its really more what type of skills you have and what sort of work you want to do. These jobs differ in many substantive ways such that you should be able to articulate a difference in your attitude towards them.

Working with high school students is very different from advising large corporations--you're providing a very different social function. Will you feel fulfilled helping large companies gain access to credit, buy and sell each other, protect themselves against risk by defending their commercial interests in court or otherwise? Or would you rather make your mark on an individual basis, and with children? Teaching is highly interpersonal, presentatory and oratory, and involves almost as much emotional competence as analytic. Being a lawyer at a large firm is much more solitary, more focused on reading and writing than presenting, far more about attention to small details and, as you elevate in the profession, nuance, as opposed to connecting and instructing another person. There are significant lifestyle differences: Being a corporate lawyer is all-encompassing; you are constantly on call for the client matter or the case, there's always more work to do, you spend far less time at home with family and friends, your life is much more about work. As a teacher you have much more personal flexibility, your hours are far more set, your expectations much clearer (challenging, but more clear).

You should be able to tell what you would like based on what kind of person you are. If you think you'd really be equally happy or equally miserable in either of two pretty different types of career, then yea go to law school and see what happens. But I find it hard to believe.

[A. Nony Mouse]

^I agree with this wrt to biglaw, but I think there are other kinds of legal practice that overlap much more with the teaching skills. So I think it also depends on what kind of law the OP wants to do (admittedly the OP talks about biglaw, but it sounds a bit more like a financial calculus based on short-term biglaw work to me, rather than dreaming of making partner or the like).

[Gifted Hands]

but OP does not have to work for biglaw firms helping out fortune 500 cos. He could find that he gets fulfillment from being a prosecutor, and they have good hours, like teachers. It's not (a) do teaching if you want nice work balance or (b) slave for biglaw partners. there are many law jobs that have good work-life balance.

Especially since you're at a T10, you will have many opportunities, you just have to resist the $$ temptaion if Biglaw is what you know would not make you happ.y

[Gifted Hands]

^I agree with this wrt to biglaw, but I think there are other kinds of legal practice that overlap much more with the teaching skills. So I think it also depends on what kind of law the OP wants to do (admittedly the OP talks about biglaw, but it sounds a bit more like a financial calculus based on short-term biglaw work to me, rather than dreaming of making partner or the like).

damn, i wish i had gotten mine posted before yours, WE AGREED lol

[jbagelboy]

^I agree with this wrt to biglaw, but I think there are other kinds of legal practice that overlap much more with the teaching skills. So I think it also depends on what kind of law the OP wants to do (admittedly the OP talks about biglaw, but it sounds a bit more like a financial calculus based on short-term biglaw work to me, rather than dreaming of making partner or the like).

That's absolutely true, I'm only responding to the OP's discussion of biglaw, since that's the only type of law they expressed an interest in practicing.

[jbagelboy]

Usually people who find their way out of going to a firm and are able to practice in the public sector/non-profit/academia/start-up world have a much clearer idea of why they want to study law and become a lawyer than OP, who is sort of treating it like a ceteris paribus social expectation.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yeah, that makes sense. I just wasn't sure whether the OP was intended to be comprehensive about what the OP wanted to do in law or not.

[Johann]

I already have experience teaching, and I enjoy it. I feel like I’m good at it, I have enjoyed the kids, I love the hours (basically 8-3, working 183 days/yr.), and I can only imagine how great the summer will be (I spent last summer preparing for LSAT, so this would be the first summer I am actually free).

So, you found a profession you enjoy, are good at, leaves you with significant free time, and—while not high paying—will compensate you well enough to live on.

Do not go to law school. Do not become a lawyer.

[180kickflip]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate it.

If he were looking to continue that same job he loved, it would be a much closer call, but it seems like his new job won't have a lot of the things OP valued.

***please don't quote***

This is exactly the issue. If the option to continue teaching at my current school was on the table, I'd stay in a heartbeat. My school is the type where the teachers stay for their entire careers and don't want to leave. Unfortunately, if I continue teaching, it will be at a school I do not know I will enjoy, with coworkers I may not like, and with kids that may be much less likable/civil. The schools with openings are "turnaround schools" with high teacher turnover, serious disciplinary issues, and high dropout rates.

In terms of my law career outlook, I would be shooting for biglaw >>in house, with maximizing earnings as one of (if not the) primary motivator. What my friends/family think about my decision/interest in law really doesn't matter much to me. I guess I included that more to explain why I can't just pose this question to people who know me IRL...everyone would just say law. Not only because of prestige but also because it is the only option that will probably get me closer to my friends in NY.

In terms of my skills...I enjoy reading, writing, and researching. I work well on less than 8 hours of sleep, and I have a high threshold for stress. I don't love lesson planning, but I do really enjoy the relationships I build with my students, and I love when my lessons spark something in them.

In terms of comparing compensation,

Over the next 7 years, teaching will pay about
65, 75, 80, 83, 87, 90, 95

I guess law would be something like
5, 20, 5, 175, 190, 210, 240

so law will have a significant opportunity cost (first 3 years of missed income added to 60k potential law debt), but it seems to bring with it the potential for much higher earnings if I can stick with it.

The teaching pension is the financial wildcard. It would take 10 years to become vested in the pension system, but at 10 years, the pension would be worth maybe 400k

[rpupkin]

If you're willing to stick it out for several years in big law, then, yes, you'll certainly make more money as a lawyer than as a teacher. But I'll say it again: the vast—and I mean vast—majority of associates in big law hate it. I know people who work in government and PI who enjoy practicing law, but most of those people make about the same or less than what you will make as a teacher.

I understand that your current teaching situation is ending. I get that there's a risk that you won't find another teaching job that you'll enjoy as much. But keep this in mind: at least you know you like teaching. And you know the things you value in a teaching environment. You do not know those things about law.

[stego]

I was able to get a T30 school to give me a deferral with my scholarship. IDK if your T10 school will do that for you, but it seriously can't hurt to ask. Teaching for a year at your new school and then going to law school if you don't like it makes a lot more sense than going to law school for a year or more and then quitting and going back to teaching.

[BirdLawExpert]

.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

If you're willing to stick it out for several years in big law, then, yes, you'll certainly make more money as a lawyer than as a teacher. But I'll say it again: the vast—and I mean vast—majority of associates in big law hate it. I know people who work in government and PI who enjoy practicing law, but most of those people make about the same or less than what you will make as a teacher.

I understand that your current teaching situation is ending. I get that there's a risk that you won't find another teaching job that you'll enjoy as much. But keep this in mind: at least you know you like teaching. And you know the things you value in a teaching environment. You do not know those things about law.

+1 billion

OP - I think there's a 90% chance you will hate big law. Money isn't everything - you enjoy teaching, your hours are like 5 times better than the average big lawyer's hours and you know what you're getting into.

There is no reason to go to law school if you have a career that you enjoy - you will likely burn out/hate practicing law if you do biglaw and your salary won't be better if you do gov/PI (and it might be less than teaching if you do PI).

Listen to the two big firm attorneys ITT - DON'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL.

[Catsinthebag]

Some laughably false statements above. Entry level federal government attorneys make more than the median teacher salary for almost every state.

Anyway, people keep telling OP how happy he is in his current job. I get and can somewhat respect the bird in hand > two in bush argument. However, OP has stated he wants to go to law school as much as he wants to teach. Combine that with the great school + low cost and the risk(s) associated with the 'unknown' of law school virtually disappears.

Also, public school teachers are unmatched in the challenges they face each day. It's a labor of love. That is the only reason I'd encourage OP to stay in that profession - we need him and anybody else with the integrity, desire, and patience to teach. Outside of that, I would hardly wish the job upon someone. I'll save the policy and politics of it all for sometime never, but for a number of reasons, it is undeniable there is ideological battle against public schools (and public a lot of stuff) taking place in many state legislatures.

Here's a list of the top 30 jobs for growth in 2016. #1 in many cases only requires a two-year degree!

OP, is there something tugging you toward law school? Yes? Then do it!

[stego]

Some laughably false statements above. Entry level federal government attorneys make more than the median teacher salary for almost every state.

It's pretty hard to get an entry-level federal government job though, isn't it?

[rpupkin]

Some laughably false statements above.

Name one false statement.

[Catsinthebag]

It's hard, so don't try. HA!

And yeah, it's pretty easy to Google. Saying that teachers make more is false.

[rpupkin]

It's hard, so don't try. HA!

And yeah, it's pretty easy to Google. Saying that teachers make more is false.

Big law lawyers make more than teachers. Most government lawyers make about what teachers make. Yes, the typical federal government attorney makes more than a teacher, but most government attorney jobs don't involve working for the federal government. And, as another poster pointed out, those jobs aren't easy to get.

PI lawyers generally make less than what teachers make.

Which of the above statements is false?

[landshoes]

OP has found a profession he/she enjoys, is good at, and leaves for considerable free time outside of work. I'd guess 90% of folks never find this in life, in any profession. As for the percentage of law school graduates who can say those things about their jobs, I'd say that at least 95% cannot say what the OP says about teaching.

do you know any teachers? Their job security is shit (which you can see by OP getting cut) and people with less experience are the first to go. Decent jobs are scarce, the bosses are often petty and incompetent, and the pensions are not going to be there in 10 years.

If you'e at a good school it can be awesome but that is NOT what OP can expect for the duration of their career. Teaching is actually quite a big risk if you don't have tenure in a solid district (meaning $$$$)

[rpupkin]

OP has found a profession he/she enjoys, is good at, and leaves for considerable free time outside of work. I'd guess 90% of folks never find this in life, in any profession. As for the percentage of law school graduates who can say those things about their jobs, I'd say that at least 95% cannot say what the OP says about teaching.

do you know any teachers? Their job security is shit (which you can see by OP getting cut) and people with less experience are the first to go. Decent jobs are scarce, the bosses are often petty and incompetent, and the pensions are not going to be there in 10 years.

If you'e at a good school it can be awesome but that is NOT what OP can expect for the duration of their career. Teaching is actually quite a big risk if you don't have tenure in a solid district (meaning $$$$)

Yes, thanks, I know teachers. And, based on what I know, what you write is basically true. The OP knows all this, I think.

Do you think big law lawyers and in-house lawyers have good job security? Or don't work for petty bosses?

[Catsinthebag]

It's hard, so don't try. HA!

And yeah, it's pretty easy to Google. Saying that teachers make more is false.

Big law lawyers make more than teachers. Most government lawyers make about what teachers make. Yes, the typical federal government attorney makes more than a teacher, but most government attorney jobs don't involve working for the federal government. And, as another poster pointed out, those jobs aren't easy to get.

PI lawyers generally make less than what teachers make.

Which of the above statements is false?

Ah, I was in fact thinking federal government attorney, my bad; but, you're still wrong. Even at the state level, you have to go find the lowest paid government attorneys to find them paid at or below a teacher. That being said, I don't think OP is as hung up on money as the average poster here is.

[Catsinthebag]

OP has found a profession he/she enjoys, is good at, and leaves for considerable free time outside of work. I'd guess 90% of folks never find this in life, in any profession. As for the percentage of law school graduates who can say those things about their jobs, I'd say that at least 95% cannot say what the OP says about teaching.

do you know any teachers? Their job security is shit (which you can see by OP getting cut) and people with less experience are the first to go. Decent jobs are scarce, the bosses are often petty and incompetent, and the pensions are not going to be there in 10 years.

If you'e at a good school it can be awesome but that is NOT what OP can expect for the duration of their career. Teaching is actually quite a big risk if you don't have tenure in a solid district (meaning $$$$)

Yes, thanks, I know teachers. And, based on what I know, what you write is basically true. The OP knows all this, I think.

Do you think big law lawyers and in-house lawyers have good job security? Or don't work for petty bosses?

Lol, please just start being honest and admit you're single-handedly trying to protect your job security by convincing people not to go to law school. Your statement above amounts to "All jobs are vulnerable and/or have petty bosses; therefore, don't go to law school."

And this is even better: some weeks ago, someone was asking about going to a school ranked in the 30s or something, and this whole crew was yammering about "can't justify investment" if not T14 or T10 or T1, whatever... NOW... Poster is asking about going top 10, the money clearly is a non-issue to the extent 60k debt isn't too bad, and the response from the anti-law school crusaders is "money's not worth it, go for what you love." Rich!