Harvard or join ARMY? Forum

[Pinos148]

Don't go army or Marines. There is a huge amount if dysfunction right now in the army (and presumably also the Marines). Go Air force or Coast Guard. Those guys have it made.

But seriously, based on what I saw in my time serving, I couldn't recommend the army to any woman right now.

What, specifically, did you see? I'm taller than most men, practically maxed my PTs, and I have leadership experience. I'm not necessarily worried that I won't be taken seriously or something similar.

I don't want to go into it in depth, but there is a HUGE cultural problem with sexual assault and sexual harassment in the army. Like, rape survivors getting written up for adultery (with their rapists!) level of bad. I served for about four years as an officer and it seemed like there was some new scandal somewhere in the brigade every few months. God knows how much stuff happens that isn't reported.

Officers aren't immune either. If anything they're expected to "play the game."

I'm with Johnny Bravo on this one. Like I said- the Army has a really bizarre identity crisis when it comes to women. It's not saying that your time in service will be unpleasant because you're a woman, just that you probably have a higher chance of dealing with some seriously disheartening (and potentially career damaging- not just your military career either) problems in the army versus an alternative branch of service.

How could my career be damaged? Let's say I never have to deal with sexual assault. What else is inherently pernicious about army culture that could damage my career?

[L’Étranger]

How long do LSAT scores stay usable? Is it 5 years?

If so, just reapply after your 4 yours of service. You'll probably do exactly the same.

[Joey68711]

Randomly stumbled on this thread, but figured I'd throw in some food for thought:

Join the Army if you have the desire. I agree with those who spoke to the merits of taking a break and clearing your head. Also, while the Army won't make you rich, it is a fairly comfortable lifestyle for a commissioned officer. You can also look into SLRP, or Student Loan Repayment Program, which will pay back up to $65,000 in undergraduate loans as long as you sign a service commitment of so many years.

The other thing to be aware of is the Army's Funded Legal Education Program (FLEP). Every year, the Army selects up to 25 of its junior officers (with more than 2 but less than 6 years of service) to go to law school and become a JAG officer. Any commissioned officer that fits the basic criteria--which, from what you've said thus far, you seem to--can apply. If accepted, you are sent to law school where the Army pays full tuition and fees while continuing to pay you your full pay and benefits. Essentially, law school becomes your "job" for 3 years. After you graduate, you owe the Army 6 years service in the JAG Corps. I would note that this program is extremely competitive and heavily relies on your first few officer performance evaluations, along with your undergrad GPA, physical fitness test score, LSAT score, etc. However, given your stats, as long as you apply the same work ethic from your undergrad to the Army, you'll likely be a competitive applicant. Then you can attend Harvard or any other school you get into on the Army's dime and get paid to do it.

For reference: I'm an active duty Army officer who did ROTC and is now doing FLEP. Feel free to PM me for more details if you want.

TL;DR: take a break, go Army, look into some of the programs the Army has, take advantage of them

[Wipfelder]

What, specifically, did you see? I'm taller than most men, practically maxed my PTs, and I have leadership experience. I'm not necessarily worried that I won't be taken seriously or something similar.

I don't want to go into it in depth, but there is a HUGE cultural problem with sexual assault and sexual harassment in the army.

the Army has a really bizarre identity crisis when it comes to women.

How could my career be damaged? Let's say I never have to deal with sexual assault. What else is inherently pernicious about army culture that could damage my career?

As a dude with some time in the army (lots of time actually) I can say that you almost certainly will be sexually harassed and/or sexually assaulted. Now that I think about it, don't go army unless you want to do something like Civil Affairs, Psychological Operations or special operations. (Not like MARSOC special ops or SEALS, but like Green Beret or other organization type of special operations).

Career-wise, its irrelevant, you'd only do four or five years before you went to LS. So don't worry about that. If things get stupid, lawyer up; just like in the real world.

[njkga]

Also, join the Marines, not the Army. I was in Marine Corps special operations for four years and absolutely loved it. When I went through Army airborne school I got a small glimpse of the big Army world and was happy to be a Marine.

To be fair that's much more of a SOF vs. Conventional distinction than it is Army vs Marines. No one should ever judge the entire branch based on that 3 weeks of utter ridiculousness.

I'm a nine year Army vet, and I agree with the Marine. Join the Marines. If I had to do it over again, I'd have joined the Marines. Hoo rah.

[encore1101]

There is also the stigma that if you're promoted, people will undoubtedly say its because you slept with your CO.

I love the Corps, but I don't know if I'd want my daughter to join. The culture is just very toxic to women. I don't know how it is as an officer, but I know how/what enlisted men think of female servicemembers.

[Wipfelder]

Man, this is a pretty damning thread for the services...

[njkga]

As a 9 yet vet, I think many here are exaggerating. But then, Im a man, so perhaps It was there but I just didnt see it. Im not saying it never happens, but I seriously doubt it is as part of the culture here as some are saying it is.

[Dcc617]

As a 9 yet vet, I think many here are exaggerating. But then, Im a man, so perhaps It was there but I just didnt see it. Im not saying it never happens, but I seriously doubt it is as part of the culture here as some are saying it is.

Everywhere I've been was that bad. Maybe where you've been it wasn't. However, I was also in positions where I had a little more visibility into it across the formation.

[Count1234]

I once considered joining the military as an officer, and I asked a friend who was currently serving in the Marines about that option, and he told me that women who join as officers are disrespected by lower ranking males. He said lower ranking males will resent you for skipping ahead via getting a degree, and just in general for being a woman. I was dissuaded from joining because I didn't want to be part of that culture. If you still want to do it, just know that that is likely to be the culture you will enter.

If you still want to take time off, and are unsure about the military, then I suggest just getting a regular job. Either way, good luck, I don't think you have a wrong choice here.

[njkga]

As a 9 yet vet, I think many here are exaggerating. But then, Im a man, so perhaps It was there but I just didnt see it. Im not saying it never happens, but I seriously doubt it is as part of the culture here as some are saying it is.

Everywhere I've been was that bad. Maybe where you've been it wasn't. However, I was also in positions where I had a little more visibility into it across the formation.

I didn't really spend any time in combat arms units either, so perhaps that could be the difference. (I was MI, so I spent most of my time intelligence units).

[sebulbaALWAYSwins]

PM

[sflyr2016]

No interest in JAG?

[Dcc617]

Here is an example of the poor culture that I personally witnessed.

So while one of our warrant officers was under investigation for sexual harassment, one of the interviewed women made a comment about how her platoon sergeant had made her feel uncomfortable, prompting another investigation. Basically the dude was cornering his young female soldiers around the office, talking about how pretty they were, asking to take sexy pictures etc. So while the investigation went on, the higher ups moved a couple young female soldiers out of his platoon. However, they kept him in the position the whole time. The charges ended up being founded and the platoon sergeant was relieved for cause, GOMOR, etc. Then they moved him to a new battalion. He was immediately PLACED BACK INTO A PLATOON SERGEANT SLOT. He worked there for a few months until boom, another investigation. So they moved him to staff, where, guess what, another investigation. I also found out that he had a couple offenses in his file from his previous duty station. As far as I know he is still in the army, still harassing people.

So OP, my point is that in the army there is a deeply ingrained cultural resistance to taking sexual assault and harassment seriously. Higher ups don't understand what rape culture means, how women aren't "asking for it." They are far too quick to emphasize performance over character. They tend to doubt victims, especially if the alleged perpetrator is an all star. This attitude permeates down to the lowest levels.

It is a huge issue that won't be quickly resolved, and is actually part of the reason why I got out. I was sick of all the shitty stuff I saw on a day to day basis.

[xRON MEXiCOx]

Graduating a "lower ivy" with a 3.9 , 174. Accepted to Harvard, Stanford and Columbia. I'm thinking of joining the army via OCS to be commissioned as an officer. I believe in service to the country and am genuinely interested in spending 4 years (or more) stationed in no man's land. ButMoreover, I've worked so hard these past 4 years and took on a ton of debt. I'm sick of academia and don't want to spend 3 more years in the class room spending tons of money. What should I do? I'm a woman and I will not age well...

So.... Army for 4 years and then law school or law school for more academia and debt?

You've given ample support for joining the army, none for law school. Seems like the answer is clear.

Smh dude

[Pinos148]

After hearing all of this, I'm learning more towards Marines. But, I think the extent to which sexual harassment is discussed here is largely a frequency bias; there are so few women serving and the incidents are widely reported, therefore you overestimate the extent of its occurrence.

[Longsx3]

Have you considered the Air Force?

[encore1101]

After hearing all of this, I'm learning more towards Marines. But, I think the extent to which sexual harassment is discussed here is largely a frequency bias; there are so few women serving and the incidents are widely reported, therefore you overestimate the extent of its occurrence.

I hope so. Good luck to you.

[Dcc617]

After hearing all of this, I'm learning more towards Marines. But, I think the extent to which sexual harassment is discussed here is largely a frequency bias; there are so few women serving and the incidents are widely reported, therefore you overestimate the extent of its occurrence.

This is absolutely not the problem. But all the best to you! Good luck with everything!

[Troianii]

Graduating a "lower ivy" with a 3.9 , 174. Accepted to Harvard, Stanford and Columbia. I'm thinking of joining the army via OCS to be commissioned as an officer. I believe in service to the country and am genuinely interested in spending 4 years (or more) stationed in no man's land. But, I've worked so hard these past 4 years and took on a ton of debt. I'm sick of academia and don't want to spend 3 more years in the class room spending tons of money. What should I do? I'm a woman and I will not age well...

So.... Army for 4 years and then law school or law school for more academia and debt?

Honestly dude - I wouldn't pass up a degree at those places. To go with it, I'm pretty sure they've opened up to ROTC.

If you're thinking about your military career, then I'll be blunt - you'll make LT (O3) faster if you go to through Law School/ROTC than if you go through OCS. Really. If you just go OCS out of undergrad, then you'll start out at O1, and (see below). Whereas every branch but the Marines starts JAG out at O2, and they all advance them to O3 pretty quickly. If I remember right, 6months in will get you O3 in the Navy, 12mos will get you O3 in the Army. I think Air Force start their JAG at O3, and Marines, again, start theirs at O1.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/promotio ... erprom.htm

And really, ROTC couldn't be a better shake for your career aspirations. Not only will they pay for your law degree, they'll pay you a stipend while you work on it. And then you can, like I said, make rank faster than you otherwise would have, and you'll still have that GI Bill that you could use when you get out, or pass on to your kid. I'd suggest thinking long term. You're best going to Harvard Law.

One final thing I'll note to you. Remember this: if the military is offering incentives for a certain program, it's because they need people in it and aren't having the easiest time of it. It's not really that hard for the Army to find another 2ndLT. But a JAG lawyer from one of the top law schools in the country? That's hard to come by, even for the Army.

Also, speaking as former enlisted, you don't want to put yourself up for failure. If you don't make it through the OCS, you don't go home - you're suddenly enlisted, and it's a whole different world being enlisted. OCS has a high washout rate. I think you're better off going through ROTC during law school.

[Troianii]

After hearing all of this, I'm learning more towards Marines. But, I think the extent to which sexual harassment is discussed here is largely a frequency bias; there are so few women serving and the incidents are widely reported, therefore you overestimate the extent of its occurrence.

1. the sexual assault/harassment in the military is something most civilians won't get. When I was deployed, it was literally against the Uniform Code of Military Justice to have sex on the ship. And we'd be stuck at sea for three months at a time - so you bet your butt people fornicated with other people. And generally it was fine, people turned a blind eye. I knew a guy and a gal who were having sex at sea. Well, they finally got busted one time, and they were both about to go to Mast, but guess what? Suddenly, this time it was rape. And so the girl never went to mast, and the guy was sent up not only for SOS (sex on the ship - we always pronounced it "sauce"), but was also drummed out on rape charges.
2. dude - don't go OCS for the Marines. It's a rougher life, and with a much higher washout rate. Last I checked (and I can't see any reason for it to change) the Marine OCS has the highest washout rate. Last I heard was 33% (though wasn't verified). You don't want to be that guy. Just mitigate your risks.

[Wipfelder]

After hearing all of this, I'm learning more towards Marines. But, I think the extent to which sexual harassment is discussed here is largely a frequency bias; there are so few women serving and the incidents are widely reported, the incidents are by and large ignored, mishandled and swept under the rug in order to protect the status quo and its so bad that congress, the president and the secretary of defense are forced to micromanage their generals (many of who have been convicted of sexual assault/harassment) therefore you overestimate I underestimate the extent severity of its occurrence.

Fixed!

[Troianii]

After hearing all of this, I'm learning more towards Marines. But, I think the extent to which sexual harassment is discussed here is largely a frequency bias; there are so few women serving and the incidents are widely reported, the incidents are by and large ignored, mishandled and swept under the rug in order to protect the status quo and its so bad that congress, the president and the secretary of defense are forced to micromanage their generals (many of who have been convicted of sexual assault/harassment) therefore you overestimate I underestimate the extent severity of its occurrence.

Fixed!

Actually made worse.

[Dcc617]

After hearing all of this, I'm learning more towards Marines. But, I think the extent to which sexual harassment is discussed here is largely a frequency bias; there are so few women serving and the incidents are widely reported, the incidents are by and large ignored, mishandled and swept under the rug in order to protect the status quo and its so bad that congress, the president and the secretary of defense are forced to micromanage their generals (many of who have been convicted of sexual assault/harassment) therefore you overestimate I underestimate the extent severity of its occurrence.

Fixed!

Actually made worse.

Nah

[Wipfelder]

And also, quite a few of the SA/SH incidents are man on man. I didn't address that in OP's thing, but its way under reported.