Current/recent law students: are you happy or unhappy that you went and why? Forum

[03152016]

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[lunixer]

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[Nekrowizard]

Like others have said, it really depends on your other options. I, for example, have minimal marketable skills, a pretty useless (if enjoyable) undergrad degree, and a burning desire for $190K/year. I went to a CCN and transferred to an HYS (there's really minimal difference in the experience, except it's much easier to get H's at an HYS than A's at a CCN). I don't regret going to law school (yet). Yeah, legal work isn't that fun. But sitting in an air-conditioned office for 60 hours a week sure beats construction or loading trucks in ~100 degree weather. I have to imagine that, all things equal, it was an economically sound decision for me to attend law school.

If you have other, reasonable options, and if you have no real desire to be a lawyer, I'd try doing something that actually furthers your goals first. What happens if you show up at Harvard and get straight P's? Then you have enormous debt, and no real path to your policy/legal research/whatever goals.

[03152016]

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[03152016]

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[lunixer]

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[landshoes]

do you live in the boston area now...? HLS' cost estimates are low for the area IMO and you should probably not assume you'll spend the same amount as you do wherever you currently live

[lunixer]

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[lavarman84]

do you have a genuine burning desire to go to law school and be a lawyer?

On the one hand, I'm the type of geek who read every opinion issued by the supreme court for two consecutive years. OTOH, I"m also the guy who got into my top pick of school and am now asking this question :/

I think that yes, I do have a desire to go to law school. I'm always very jealous when I see someone on Facebook who enrolls. But is it a good decision? I really don't know. Am I going to enroll and then (as someone mentioned in a private message to me the other day) "regret my decision for a decade."

It's a deeply personal thing. Some people will hate the law. Some will tolerate it. Some will like it. Some will love it. That's true of most careers. I'd say law has more people that hate it than your average career but I think part of that is because people panic and go to law school when they can't find a career coming out of college (or they do it for the prestige...when it's really not very prestigious).

Nobody can tell you if you'll like it or not because we don't know you and aren't you.

I don't regret my choice for a second. But ask me again in 5 years when I'm practicing and there might be a different story.

[bretby]

also op, it also sounds like you may have fetishized harvard a fair bit
and thus may be particularly susceptible to being talked into sticker
harvard's a good school but in no way, shape, or form should you pay sticker, whether that's out of your pocket or in loans
nearly 100% of the time i consider sticker harvard to be a poor outcome (there are some rare exceptions, like trust fund kids or people having tuition paid by work or military)
whereas you may in fact be seeing $$$/$$$$ at other top schools, which still isn't a great idea if you don't want to be a lawyer, but is at least defensible

and don't forget things like tuition inflation, deferment period, loan fees, interest, etc
i trust that you have already, but if you haven't google lawschool22's calculator
and check out cost data at lstscorereports.com

You're right. I have. And it's mostly because everyone else does. My siblings stopped talking to me (out of jealousy) since I got in. My parents are fawning all over me. And I've had this conversation or a variant numerous times:

"Oh yeah thinking about going to law school next year"
"Really, where?"
"I've gotten into NYU and Harvard, probably go to one of those if I decide to go"
"Harvard!!!??? OMG!!!111!!!!11! And you might not go!!!???"

ETA: And alas, I didn't get money at any other schools, other than the 60K at NYU. Once I factor in the higher COL at NYU the gap narrows enough that I think it has to be Harvard. Here's hoping that my appeal there gets me more $$.

for example, counterfactually, if you were completely debt-financing sticker, you'd be at $322,436 debt at repayment according to law school transparency

those little costs above and beyond tuition/col are sneaky and add up

I ran the numbers myself. I have a shockingly low COL generally and would be well under the lifestyle budget that they give. Like well under. I spend about $75/month on food, for example, no medical costs, don't own a car, travel by train instead of plane, etc. My savings can pay for all of the non-tuition costs plus some of the tuition. For me the debt really isn't much of an issue. With the way I handle money I have no doubt that I can pay it off in 5 years regardless of my salary. LIPP would be icing on the cake. The bigger issue is the time, the lifestyle change, having to move _again_, etc.

It's really unwise to fetishize Harvard. It has a lot going for it, but it also has a lot of drawbacks. It's just a school among schools, so please don't let its (somewhat unearned) mystique be the deciding factor.

[landshoes]

do you live in the boston area now...? HLS' cost estimates are low for the area IMO and you should probably not assume you'll spend the same amount as you do wherever you currently live

I currently live in Washington DC. It's a super-duper expensive city. And I spend just about nothing.

ok I'm just telling you that cambridge and surrounding areas (that are reasonably accessible by transit) are probably more expensive than DC proper. and it's not well reflected in COL calculators because of the way they generalize across the entire metro regions. having HLS subsidized housing will likely help, the housing here is out of control.

you're a librarian and I'm sure excellent at research so I might not be telling you anything you don't already know, but a lot of people assume the area is cheaper than it actually is.

[lunixer]

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[lunixer]

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[landshoes]

do you live in the boston area now...? HLS' cost estimates are low for the area IMO and you should probably not assume you'll spend the same amount as you do wherever you currently live

I currently live in Washington DC. It's a super-duper expensive city. And I spend just about nothing.

ok I'm just telling you that cambridge and surrounding areas (that are reasonably accessible by transit) are probably more expensive than DC proper. and it's not well reflected in COL calculators because of the way they generalize across the entire metro regions. having HLS subsidized housing will likely help, the housing here is out of control.

you're a librarian and I'm sure excellent at research so I might not be telling you anything you don't already know, but a lot of people assume the area is cheaper than it actually is.

Thanks for letting me know. I appreciate that. I did build rose glasses into my own model and exaggerated my expenses beyond where I thought they would be, so I'm pretty sure my estimate is within a narrow 95% confidence interval. Still could be wrong though. I guess there's a possibility that some expense will come up that I never anticipated.

yeah, if you've done that, the only thing I'd add to your model (lol@me, very serious) if you haven't already is a regular uber / lyft trip to get bulk staples. however, if you split with someone else it is probably negligible.

also probably telling you something you already know, but: your time is very valuable in 1L, probably much more valuable than it is when working full-time. so something to consider when deciding how much cash vs. time you're going to want to spend on things like shopping. I enjoy shopping, getting good deals, buying in bulk, and stuff like that but it's often not worth it because the marginal cost savings is too low when balanced with the time expenditure (and there are certain more "valuable" times -- i.e. 9pm is less valuable than 8am because I get much less schoolwork done with the same amount of effort.)

anyway, I think the big issue here isn't the cost: it's that you think being a lawyer will be fulfilling. you seem to have the type of personality that I've seen really enjoy being an attorney. you like iterating things, researching, and covering all the eventualities with a mildly (or very) pessimistic approach. not joking, you remind me a lot of one of my best friends who is going on 8 (9?) years in biglaw, who actually likes it a lot.

fulfilling? no. because this is not a personality that finds much "fulfilling." there's an inherent ability/willingness to always see all sides of something, and that's just not a personality that leads itself well to being fulfilled. so in that sense, maybe doing a job where you get rewarded for these kinds of traits isn't great for fulfillment, even if you'd enjoy the job and work itself.

I should also note that needing to agree with the people you work for makes you substantially less marketable / valuable as an attorney. or to put it another way, if you want to agree with the people you work for, you're going to pay for it. either by having a substantially lower salary and far fewer job options, or by being unhappy to work for people you don't agree with. so that worries me about what you've said about yourself and the law. even my public defender friends, who are usually very passionate about PD work, have clients who they hate and who do stupid shit that bothers them. saying things you don't believe / mean / agree with is one of the fundamental requirements for the vast majority of legal jobs.

[landshoes]

also you asked me before if I am fulfilled and happy...that's not really something I look for in a job. I was raised with an immigrant mentality (you need to succeed, have a stable job, and do well and that's the most important thing, and happiness is not really in the equation). I have not really even considered my happiness and fulfillment in terms of career; it would be impossible for me to be happy if I weren't financially stable and couldn't give that to my kid(s) and loved ones.

[Tls2016]

OP: you are already financially stable with significant savings and a solid job. You are going to trade that in for 6 figures of debt and a biglaw job (when you don't even want to practice law except in the vaguest sense.)

It's sad to me that the Harvard name is pulling you into doing something you have serious and realistic doubts about. Really very sad that status and prestige is over riding your own instinct of what is the correct decision for you.

[zot1]

I went to UCI. Happy I did. Once in college I decided I wanted to be a lawyer and nothing else, so I made it happen. Once in law school, even though I enjoyed the experience, I became very disillusioned with the profession. However, I got a government job that I love and pays me more than enough, so it truly worked out for me.

Edit: I'm not sure that I can think of something I felt lied to during the admin process. I personally worked as an admissions ambassador and we don't get any kind of training whatsoever from admissions. The process is more like admissions sends an email asking students if they would like to call prospective students, give tours, etc. if you sign up, you get a spreadsheet where you sign up and then you do it. No one really tells you what to do or say.

[lunixer]

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[landshoes]

I might be mixing you up with someone else who was asking about their job / fulfillment.

I feel like if you're the kind of person who is fulfilled by a meaningful job, working with children, then there are areas of legal practice that you might like--but they're almost uniformly low-paid and miserable jobs that people burn out of quickly.

The jobs that pay back the HLS investment are mostly biglaw, although if you have FedGov hiring preference then you're actually better set than most to get the decent 90k job.

If you really want the H name there are other grad schools that take one year and that could get you into education or policy. Law school is just a long, expensive 3 years to get into a job that will be largely similar to the job you have now. There are interesting and worthwhile parts of law school, but many of them exist (but better and more cheaply) in other graduate programs.

[jp1447]

I took the money at a lower T14 instead of more prestigious schools at a higher price. 1L was the worst year of my life.

Personally, I think an equally strong business school would have been a better career choice. Less costly, less time, and less of a hyper focus on grades.

[landshoes]

I actually like the people at my law school a lot, but it's still stressful and difficult, largely because of the curve and the fact that everyone here is smart and hard-working. Insecurity city.

[jbagelboy]

I would not go. And I think I've said this in another thread of yours.

Not to self-aggrandize, but objectively, I'm a successful law student at a top school, I've had a lot of different opportunities and will have more as time goes on, I enjoyed law school itself for the most part, but the opportunity cost--and direct financial cost--is absolutely devastating. I can never really become anything else, when there are so many things I now realize I'd rather be; I'm tied by debt to options I will most likely become unhappy with, and I've tied my wife to the same unhappy fate. I can't enjoy the luxury my position and salary would otherwise afford. Don't go to law school to become a policy-maker. Go to law school only if you want to become an actual lawyer. And as another poster said, don't fetishize HLS or any other one top school. They are really all very similar, they all have their upsides and disappointments, and the vast majority end up at large law firms whether they want to or not. If you want the most flexibility out of law school, take on the least debt/lowest cost.

[zot1]

I second the above. I know a handful of peers who went to law school wanted to go into politics, but ended up in a legal job instead because couldn't crack into politics right away.

[lunixer]

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[A. Nony Mouse]

I second the above. I know a handful of peers who went to law school wanted to go into politics, but ended up in a legal job instead because couldn't crack into politics right away.

What's the outlook on jobs for senators? Or at policy-influencing orgs like ACLU or Cato or whatever?

My sense is that if you want these kinds of jobs you will likely have to work to forge your own path, because there is less of a straight shot for law school to non-law positions. (ACLU hires lawyers of course, but is VERY competence, and while I don't have direct experience with the ACLU my sense is that either you'd have to lateral there after getting experience somewhere else, or get a fellowship to work there directly after graduation - which still might not turn into a permanent job.) You don't need a JD to work for a senator or at the Cato Institute, so you're competing with plenty of non-lawyers for non-law jobs, and will have to do some selling of your skills. Law school isn't designed to get you to those jobs. You may be able to get there, but it will require more initiative than going for lawyer jobs.