Why do some ppl with high numbers get rejected? Forum

[lacrossebrother]

I phrased that kind of tongue in cheek. Nonetheless, you shouldn't require disclosure of criminal histories until making a conditional offer of acceptance. Federal agencies and contractors are proscribed from doing so, and most national employers have elected to discontinue the practice in light of the litany of states and municipalities making it illegal to do.

While I think there is a legitimate question regarding the actual permissibly of requiring such disclosures in the application process --by a public school that participates in federal financial aid programs, you would think that a school that purports to be critical of the effects of societal forces such as recidivism would be a little bit more progressive.

The ex-ante exclusion of certain individuals based on your fear that they may struggle at the bar-certification stage is also a rather weak justification. The stated mission of your law school actually is of course (as it should be) couched in terms of a commitment to academics. "The mission of the Texas Tech University School of Law is to educate and train individuals for the ethical practice of law in the 21st Century; to engage in productive, effective scholarship, both within our academic community and within the larger academic community throughout our state and nation; and to render public service." Of course, there's a connection between bar-acceptance and training for the ethical practice of law. But this seems to be a small portion of your mission, and there is still a disconnect between the state bar's c&f and the academic study of the law.

[A. Nony Mouse]

But it's a professional program. If you want actual academic study of the law you should do a PhD in something, not a JD. The only reason to do a JD is to enter the legal profession.

(I generally agree that asking for criminal history once a conditional offer of acceptance has been made would make sense, but I also don't know how many applicants get knocked out for C&F and whether it's enough to make the conditional offer thing a logistical nightmare.)

[SPerez]

I phrased that kind of tongue in cheek. Nonetheless, you shouldn't require disclosure of criminal histories until making a conditional offer of acceptance. Federal agencies and contractors are proscribed from doing so, and most national employers have elected to discontinue the practice in light of the litany of states and municipalities making it illegal to do.

While I think there is a legitimate question regarding the actual permissibly of requiring such disclosures in the application process --by a public school that participates in federal financial aid programs, you would think that a school that purports to be critical of the effects of societal forces such as recidivism would be a little bit more progressive.

The ex-ante exclusion of certain individuals based on your fear that they may struggle at the bar-certification stage is also a rather weak justification. The stated mission of your law school actually is of course (as it should be) couched in terms of a commitment to academics. "The mission of the Texas Tech University School of Law is to educate and train individuals for the ethical practice of law in the 21st Century; to engage in productive, effective scholarship, both within our academic community and within the larger academic community throughout our state and nation; and to render public service." Of course, there's a connection between bar-acceptance and training for the ethical practice of law. But this seems to be a small portion of your mission, and there is still a disconnect between the state bar's c&f and the academic study of the law.

I see where you're coming from. Perhaps that's something for law students to bring up to the ABA through the student division at some point, since all 200+ law schools require disclosure of criminal offenses. It's pretty universal for professional programs of all kinds, and for law school specifically one's pattern of law-abiding (or not) behavior seems pretty germane to the admissions process. Many law faculty view part of a law school's role as a gatekeeper to the profession in addition to the state bar (others disagree, of course).

Our C&F question closely tracks our state bar's question. I have, though, removed the language asking for arrests because I feel that is sort of shaky ground to be on for various reasons (some of which you mentioned). I only ask for convictions, pleas, etc., but a lot of schools also ask for arrests because their state bars do. I also don't ask about traffic violations, even though the bar does, because that's just an administrative PITA for everyone involved and 9 times out of 10 it isn't anything worth knowing. I figure if someone has SO many traffic violations that it brings into question their respect for the law (and therefore fitness to be a lawyer) they will probably end up with a non-traffic offense or warrant that would have to be disclosed. And even then, an applicant has a full opportunity to comment on their criminal history and provide us with any context or information they think is relevant.

Dean Perez
Texas Tech Law

[iamapipersson]

Hypothetically, how bad of a C&F issue does someone have to have to be denied at TTT with a 3.5/170

Are we in the felony range or class 1-3 misdemeanor range?

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[+] Spoiler

Convicted murderers have been accepted into 50-60 with lower lsat scores. Many schools would gladly take that risk with a 170.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[barkschool]

Hypothetically, how bad of a C&F issue does someone have to have to be denied at TTT with a 3.5/170

Are we in the felony range or class 1-3 misdemeanor range?

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[+] Spoiler

Convicted murderers have been accepted into 50-60 with lower lsat scores. Many schools would gladly take that risk with a 170.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

This whole thing seemed like flame but it's just carried on too far

[iamapipersson]

Hypothetically, how bad of a C&F issue does someone have to have to be denied at TTT with a 3.5/170

Are we in the felony range or class 1-3 misdemeanor range?

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[+] Spoiler

Convicted murderers have been accepted into 50-60 with lower lsat scores. Many schools would gladly take that risk with a 170.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

This whole thing seemed like flame but it's just carried on too far

Example 1: http://abovethelaw.com/2011/09/new-tula ... -murderer/

[barkschool]

Hypothetically, how bad of a C&F issue does someone have to have to be denied at TTT with a 3.5/170

Are we in the felony range or class 1-3 misdemeanor range?

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[+] Spoiler

Convicted murderers have been accepted into 50-60 with lower lsat scores. Many schools would gladly take that risk with a 170.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

This whole thing seemed like flame but it's just carried on too far

Example 1: http://abovethelaw.com/2011/09/new-tula ... -murderer/

This guy's a great listen as well; (not a murder, however)
http://www.npr.org/2015/12/08/458901392 ... -just-lost


I think I draw the line at convicted murderer for admission to the profession. Hard to hold shitty law schools (see starved business) to a standard, if they don't want to keep those student out of the profession the ABA should at least be doing it.

[iamapipersson]

Hypothetically, how bad of a C&F issue does someone have to have to be denied at TTT with a 3.5/170

Are we in the felony range or class 1-3 misdemeanor range?

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[+] Spoiler

Convicted murderers have been accepted into 50-60 with lower lsat scores. Many schools would gladly take that risk with a 170.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

This whole thing seemed like flame but it's just carried on too far

Example 1: http://abovethelaw.com/2011/09/new-tula ... -murderer/

This guy's a great listen as well; (not a murder, however)
http://www.npr.org/2015/12/08/458901392 ... -just-lost


I think I draw the line at convicted murderer for admission to the profession. Hard to hold shitty law schools (see starved business) to a standard, if they don't want to keep those student out of the profession the ABA should at least be doing it.

Murder has many, many dimensions. It could range from mass murdering sociopathy to a beaten and bruised pregnant wife reaching for a gun as her husband comes to choke her. Both are murder in most jurisdictions, but clearly different ethical ramifications. And one can only attempt to understand those ramifications in a fair and equitable society, not only in a trial.

[Hand]

You can rob some banks, become a jail house lawyer, get a JD, and teach at GULC - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shon_Hopwood

[flowering]

.

[ms9]

If someone reminds me in about a month I will do a blog on this -- in a sort of rank order fashion.

Reminder!

Remind me on the 10th (but I have been working on something about this, of sorts)

[roranoa]

If someone reminds me in about a month I will do a blog on this -- in a sort of rank order fashion.

Reminder!

Remind me on the 10th (but I have been working on something about this, of sorts)

Reminder!

[ms9]

I got really into giving one reason why this happens (and probably more than you realize, although certainly not in massive amounts)

http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/generation-neurotic/

Enjoy being offended by me!

[RZ5646]

I got really into giving what reason why this happens (and probably more than you realize, although certainly not in massive amounts)

http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/generation-neurotic/

Enjoy being offended by me!

Wow, except for the complaining online part, I can't believe people actually do these things. It seems obvious that you'll hurt your chances.

[ms9]

I got really into giving what reason why this happens (and probably more than you realize, although certainly not in massive amounts)

http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/generation-neurotic/

Enjoy being offended by me!

Wow, except for the complaining online part, I can't believe people actually do these things. It seems obvious that you'll hurt your chances.

I just now had someone keep calling me hitting redial over and over and when I finally answered it was a simple question that almost anyone on TLS could answer. So people do it, trust me.

[lymenheimer]

I got really into giving what reason why this happens (and probably more than you realize, although certainly not in massive amounts)

http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/generation-neurotic/

Enjoy being offended by me!

Wow, except for the complaining online part, I can't believe people actually do these things. It seems obvious that you'll hurt your chances.

I just now had someone keep calling me hitting redial over and over and when I finally answered it was a simple question that almost anyone on TLS could answer. So people do it, trust me.

Spivey, do you direct your clients to TLS at any point during the consulting process?

[ms9]

I got really into giving what reason why this happens (and probably more than you realize, although certainly not in massive amounts)

http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/generation-neurotic/

Enjoy being offended by me!

Wow, except for the complaining online part, I can't believe people actually do these things. It seems obvious that you'll hurt your chances.

I just now had someone keep calling me hitting redial over and over and when I finally answered it was a simple question that almost anyone on TLS could answer. So people do it, trust me.

Spivey, do you direct your clients to TLS at any point during the consulting process?

I do. If they have a specific circumstance where there is a similar thread about it on TLS I do. I just beg them to always check with me before they do something recommended on TLS.

Others are blissfully unaware of TLS and it seems to work well. To be completely honest, as much as I love TLS there are parts of it that can hurt applicants (one of which is mentioned in the blog), especially when people start critiquing the Personal Statements et. al. of others. So I don't always point people here but often do after we are all done with editing on our end

[Alive97]

I can attest to TLS being an anxiety increaser for applicants. I don't think it hurt my process, but it's unfortunate. I was pretty chill about it all until I came on TLS. People desperately reading tea leaves about the status of their app etc. let up people lol.