do adcoms know if you apply to multiple schools? Forum

[Clearly]

Where do you expect to earn 80k coming out of law school? The bimodal salary of lawyers allows for very few of those jobs.



Those 25-50-75 numbers conveniently mask the fact that in terms of frequency you're far more likely to make 45 than 80.

[A. Nony Mouse]

How many graduates from each of those schools end up getting private jobs? How many reported their salaries?

[Clearly]

Also, I'm not trying to sound sour, I'm legit just making sure you're making an educated decision. I'm not particularly prestige focused btw, but I don't like seeing people pay 250,000 to make 50,000...

[TheProdigal]

I'm on my phone, so if this seems curt, it's not intentional.

Just glancing at two of those salary reports, BC has 18% not reporting salary, and UNH has 40% not reporting salary. These salary averages and medians are meaningless with so many employed students declining to report their salary. You absolutely should assume they are below median - and likely the majority are below the reported 25th.

[Troianii]

I'm on my phone, so if this seems curt, it's not intentional.

Just glancing at two of those salary reports, BC has 18% not reporting salary, and UNH has 40% not reporting salary. These salary averages and medians are meaningless with so many employed students declining to report their salary. You absolutely should assume they are below median - and likely the majority are below the reported 25th.

As far as assuming worst case scenario that makes sense, but I just don't see any reason to believe the worst case scenario is the reality. I'm sure the actual figures are lower, but I don't think its that bad, because these are self-reported by the graduates, not the school. There's no incentive for an underemployed graduate to not report or for a graduate starting at 160k to report - and vice versa. On what basis do you assume that the majority who don't report salary are below the reported 25th?

[TheProdigal]

Because people in bad situations don't want to tell anybody about it. Take a look at reporting rates for the T14, and compare to the ones you posted - I think Columbia has something like 98% reporting. LST also provides the percentage of graduates certain to be making above the reported median (which is obviously 50% - not reporting %).

[Troianii]

Where do you expect to earn 80k coming out of law school? The bimodal salary of lawyers allows for very few of those jobs.


Those 25-50-75 numbers conveniently mask the fact that in terms of frequency you're far more likely to make 45 than 80.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those are figures for all law graduates, right? (btw, I've attached an updated link below, class of 2013 has 78.2/82.4) And since there are nearly 200 law schools, the majority are coming from a less respected school than has even been discussed in this thread (like Cooley, which has more graduates than any other law school and currently produces more than 2% of all law degrees). And when looking at graphs like this it's important to be aware that so many lawyers start out around 50k because there is very little fluctuation among public law positions. It doesn't matter much where you got your degree when it comes to public law salaries, just look at Columbia, ranked #4, where the median public sector salary is 47k - which falls right in the middle of that area your talking about with that graph, right? That's barely any higher than Akron, which isn't even close to being ranking in the top 100, where its graduates in public practice earn a median salary of 41k.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... sals/2013/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/akron/sals/2013/



http://www.nalp.org/class_of_2013_bimodal_salary_curve

[Troianii]

Also, I'm not trying to sound sour, I'm legit just making sure you're making an educated decision. I'm not particularly prestige focused btw, but I don't like seeing people pay 250,000 to make 50,000...

I get that you mean the best and it just came off the wrong way. I guess I misread your facial expressions on the internets.

I get where you're coming from and of course I don't want to make 50k/yr, but I'm not in the situation where I'm worried about being 250k in debt. Like I mentioned in the OP I'm a vet so I have some resources to pay for college, and currently only have subsidized student loans to the tune of about 15-20k, and that's all I'll have for my undergrad. It's actually less than my current assets, and I still have some GI benefits left over, so I'm really not worried about that. Worst case scenario, like I said, I'm comfortable studying at UNH where I expect to get some kind of scholarship, but I'd be willing to take some loans to go to a better school like BC (where I don't expect to get in, let alone get scholarships).

[TheProdigal]

Tacking on a little more here. You're looking at around 70% or worse full-time, long-term jd required employment from these schools. From there, take out another 10-20% for PI. Even assuming unreported salaries have the same median as unreported, that means a median private sector salary puts a graduate in the top 25% of earners. Now factor in IP (particularly if you're not eligible), kids guaranteed a good paying gig at their family's firm, paralegals guaranteed a job through their firm, etc., and you're down to a pretty small slice of total graduates.

[gnomgnomuch]

If you want a well paying job out of law school then you basically have to retake. I know it's not what you want to hear, but a 3.0/158 isn't gonna get you in anywhere (and def no scholarship money) that's worth going to for a shot at a well paying job. You're essentially going to end up with 250k of debt (unless you have outside funding, which it doesn't seem like you do) and a maybe 10-20 percent chance at paying it off.


Strongly consider working somewhere else in the meantime, and retaking the LSAT. A 5-10 point bump for you could leave you at the same LS you'd end up in now, but with a substantial scholarship.

[Troianii]

How many graduates from each of those schools end up getting private jobs? How many reported their salaries?

For BC, 50.2% got private sector jobs and reported salaries, 12.3% got private jobs and didn't report.

[Troianii]

If you want a well paying job out of law school then you basically have to retake. I know it's not what you want to hear, but a 3.0/158 isn't gonna get you in anywhere (and def no scholarship money) that's worth going to for a shot at a well paying job. You're essentially going to end up with 250k of debt (unless you have outside funding, which it doesn't seem like you do) and a maybe 10-20 percent chance at paying it off.


Strongly consider working somewhere else in the meantime, and retaking the LSAT. A 5-10 point bump for you could leave you at the same LS you'd end up in now, but with a substantial scholarship.

Yeah, I don't know how people even manage to take on 250k of loans in just three years. Kind of boggles your mind, doesn't it?

I may retake it, but a retake for this cycle just isn't practical in my case, but I might retake in the spring or summer if I end up not getting any decent options at all. Thanks the response, and also I love the avatar. What is it from?

[Auxilio]

Honestly, not to be too obstinate, but you really should retake. As a Native everything I have heard means that is a ridiculously huge boost. What that means is all you really need to aim for is like a 161-3 (which is almost always doable for someone with a 158, if nothing else just practice the Logic Games section since they are the easiest to improve off of - look at 7 Sage videos). That would be enough to get a big scholarship I think to something T20 or so, and probably some money from a few of the T14.

I am less knowledgeable about firm hiring, but I believe they also aim for diversity so if you go to someplace with half-decent BL you can probably be fairly confident you will get in. The route to the 80-100k job you mentioned before most easily goes through a couple years in BL.

[gnomgnomuch]

If you want a well paying job out of law school then you basically have to retake. I know it's not what you want to hear, but a 3.0/158 isn't gonna get you in anywhere (and def no scholarship money) that's worth going to for a shot at a well paying job. You're essentially going to end up with 250k of debt (unless you have outside funding, which it doesn't seem like you do) and a maybe 10-20 percent chance at paying it off.


Strongly consider working somewhere else in the meantime, and retaking the LSAT. A 5-10 point bump for you could leave you at the same LS you'd end up in now, but with a substantial scholarship.

Yeah, I don't know how people even manage to take on 250k of loans in just three years. Kind of boggles your mind, doesn't it?

I may retake it, but a retake for this cycle just isn't practical in my case, but I might retake in the spring or summer if I end up not getting any decent options at all. Thanks the response, and also I love the avatar. What is it from?

Well, 50-55k or so for a year of tuition, another 15-25k for living expenses adds up to about 200-240k in loans. Add in an insane interest rate, and there you go.

[Troianii]

Honestly, not to be too obstinate, but you really should retake. As a Native everything I have heard means that is a ridiculously huge boost. What that means is all you really need to aim for is like a 161-3 (which is almost always doable for someone with a 158, if nothing else just practice the Logic Games section since they are the easiest to improve off of - look at 7 Sage videos). That would be enough to get a big scholarship I think to something T20 or so, and probably some money from a few of the T14.

I am less knowledgeable about firm hiring, but I believe they also aim for diversity so if you go to someplace with half-decent BL you can probably be fairly confident you will get in. The route to the 80-100k job you mentioned before most easily goes through a couple years in BL.

Well like I said, a retake just wouldn't work for me this cycle. I may retake, but its unlikely it'd have any effect on this cycle and... well, I'm a veteran. I'm getting old. If any of you guys feel like you'd be okay putting law school off for a year, imagine you've already done it for four or five years and are considering putting it off for another. Now if I don't well this cycle come 2016, I may retake and apply it toward the next cycle.

Thanks for the advice.

[Auxilio]

Honestly, not to be too obstinate, but you really should retake. As a Native everything I have heard means that is a ridiculously huge boost. What that means is all you really need to aim for is like a 161-3 (which is almost always doable for someone with a 158, if nothing else just practice the Logic Games section since they are the easiest to improve off of - look at 7 Sage videos). That would be enough to get a big scholarship I think to something T20 or so, and probably some money from a few of the T14.

I am less knowledgeable about firm hiring, but I believe they also aim for diversity so if you go to someplace with half-decent BL you can probably be fairly confident you will get in. The route to the 80-100k job you mentioned before most easily goes through a couple years in BL.

Well like I said, a retake just wouldn't work for me this cycle. I may retake, but its unlikely it'd have any effect on this cycle and... well, I'm a veteran. I'm getting old. If any of you guys feel like you'd be okay putting law school off for a year, imagine you've already done it for four or five years and are considering putting it off for another. Now if I don't well this cycle come 2016, I may retake and apply it toward the next cycle.

Thanks for the advice.

I'm honestly confused why you are so adamantly ruling out a December or even February test.

[Troianii]

Honestly, not to be too obstinate, but you really should retake. As a Native everything I have heard means that is a ridiculously huge boost. What that means is all you really need to aim for is like a 161-3 (which is almost always doable for someone with a 158, if nothing else just practice the Logic Games section since they are the easiest to improve off of - look at 7 Sage videos). That would be enough to get a big scholarship I think to something T20 or so, and probably some money from a few of the T14.

I am less knowledgeable about firm hiring, but I believe they also aim for diversity so if you go to someplace with half-decent BL you can probably be fairly confident you will get in. The route to the 80-100k job you mentioned before most easily goes through a couple years in BL.

Well like I said, a retake just wouldn't work for me this cycle. I may retake, but its unlikely it'd have any effect on this cycle and... well, I'm a veteran. I'm getting old. If any of you guys feel like you'd be okay putting law school off for a year, imagine you've already done it for four or five years and are considering putting it off for another. Now if I don't well this cycle come 2016, I may retake and apply it toward the next cycle.

Thanks for the advice.

I'm honestly confused why you are so adamantly ruling out a December or even February test.

Because 158 was my best practice test. I realize less than 10% of the people on the forum would have been pleasantly surprised with a 158, but I was. But because it was a "good day" for me it becomes even less likely for me to score better, and while I have time to study I don't have enough time to study such that I can be sure to bump my score up a few points. Statistically people retaking the lsat only get (on average) a 2pt bump, and only about one out of ten get that much desired 5-10pt bump. If I'm going to retake, I'm going to retake when I can be confident that I'll get a solid bump, but I've got a heavy course load including writing my thesis, and put that together with the fact that this was my best practice score, a December retake just isn't in the works for me. I may well retake it in February, bUT a December retake just isn't practical.

[Troianii]

You should retake the lsat.

Btw I'm starting to seriously consider a retake for December/February. It's going to make my life a living expletive - ing hell for four months because I am already so busy, but when I started to look at the app/adm grid on lsac I just realized that multiple strong softs, even with URM status, wouldn't be enough to get to schools I'd prefer to. And then I saw that 64% of people who took Princeton Review got a 10+ bump, which I thought a 10pt bump was incredibly unlikely, I figured it's worth making my own life hell again for a bit. Just really, really, really not looking forward to it.

[Clearly]

Nooooo. Don't take TPR! They are the worst! Deff retake but you'll do better with 7 sage or velocity lsat!

[Troianii]

Nooooo. Don't take TPR! They are the worst! Deff retake but you'll do better with 7 sage or velocity lsat!

Alright, well do you know if there is any statistical analysis of performance, or result guarantees for other programs? I know Kaplan and TPR have them, but I have heard (particularly with Kaplan) that they kinda suck.

[Clearly]

The problem with those data is that they don't actually tell you scores. How good TPR is at raising people from 130 to 140 is pretty irrelevant to someones odds of breaking 160 or 170. The best you can get is referrals from people who actually improved to high scores, and both 7sage and velocity are routinely recommended here by people who have scored high. I used velocity myself a long time ago.

[Auxilio]

Yeah I would also choose one of the other options, I usually recommend 7 Sage. He has all his logic games up on youtube for free, so you can watch a couple of those to get a feel.