Should I practice law if I'm shy? Forum

[A. Nony Mouse]

You should consider a PhD program instead.

If I were you, get out while you can. While there are some good people in the legal profession, there are also a lot of dirtbags in law school and beyond who will make you feel like shit. I'd recommend a nice research position where you make a couple friends and chill in your office until you become a professor.

Noooooooo. No no no. This is so fucking not how it works. Do not do this.

(It's also mostly a myth that academia is the refuge of the socially awkward. If you look at who actually gets hired these days they're all horrifyingly overqualified and articulate, confident people.)

[Bubbles 4 Life]

.

[Desert Fox]

[Desert Fox]

[A. Nony Mouse]

Seriously? I had no idea. I just remember seeing some philosophy grad students chilling at the local bar each week playing trivia and drinking brews. I had 1 of them lecturing to me as a teaching assistant and one of them as a recently elevated professor. Both were awkward as hell in class, but they seemed pretty happy around each other at the bar. Maybe all my experiences are just the exception to the norm.

I mean, you're pointing to 2 people out of all the people who ever taught you in college. All the others were once grad students and have PhDs, too.

And no, to get a PhD you do not chill with your friends for a couple of years until you get a professor job. Not even remotely close. Of course people look happy at a bar drinking and playing trivia. But that's not how they spend the vast majority of their time.

To go back to the OP, my point is mostly that entering a PhD program because you have a humanities BA and crappy job and don't know what else to do is an even worse idea than going to law school for those reasons. (I know PhD programs pay your tuition/give a stipend. It's still a worse idea.)

Desert Fox - I'll grant that the pool entering PhD programs is a little different, and the model for sociability is a little different, but you need to be good at pretty much everything to actually get a job these days, and that includes being able to stand up in front of people and talk. Maybe less on the day-to-day chitchat, but the people who succeed are always the people who know people and talk to people and are liked by people. "Fit" is absolutely a HUGE criterion for hiring and getting tenure.

[SabbathPuppet]

Anybody who thinks that getting a tenure track job doesn't require an enormous amount of professional skills should read through Karen Kelsky's blog or Chronicle Vitae articles. "Professionalization" is the watchword for PhDs today, and your chances of getting a job rest a great deal on whether you evince maturity and collegiality.

[rpupkin]

To go back to the OP, my point is mostly that entering a PhD program because you have a humanities BA and crappy job and don't know what else to do is an even worse idea than going to law school for those reasons.

Completely agree.

[BigZuck]

I have a hard time believing that someone with this apparent level of self-awareness is really and truly awkward to the point of it hindering their ability to get a job.

If you're quiet and shy and don't like small talk you're totally fine, don't worry about it.

[Eee666]

re - academia: I have zero interest in going back to school for the humanities. I agree that humanities grad school is a long shot and it has burned some of my friends.

It would be helpful to know what your debt levels are going to be coming out of school and where in the T14 you're headed. If you have minimal debt, finding a job that is well-suited for your temperament can be top priority, and maybe law school is a reasonable choice. If you're in a position where you have to do biglaw to support yourself, you might be more reliant on a set of social skills you claim you don't possess. (Caveat: your level of self-awareness in this thread belies your opinion of yourself; I think if you're polite and nice, quietness won't hinder you much).

Also, if you're very young and have little professional experience, it could be worth your while to find some and reapply to school. Work at a law firm for a while and see if being a lawyer is what you really want to do. Your t14 acceptance could be a way to get your foot in the door with a firm.

Lower T14... not the bottom though. I will have ~$100k of debt, so I don't think I can job shop. I am almost 30 but I have no professional experience, my work experience is years of manual labour. I am open to doing humble PI things and am ok with not making a lot of money in my career but I have read/heard that PI hiring is very 'fit' dependent. Also because I am not quick on my feet I doubt I would be an effective litigator. I have no interest in crim.

Under no circumstance should you try for law. It's a huge investment (time and money). Even for areas where you don't have to have much interaction with clients or courts (like ERISA or Tax) you still have to get through the interview. If people think you are weird, you'll have a really tough time getting a job. And even if you did, people will shun you because they can't trust you in front of a client.

You don't have to be outgoing and sociable for law, but you can't be a weirdo shutin either.

Law school would be a horrible mistake.

Do accounting or programming or something. Something that won't require a large investment.

Thanks for your candid advice. Yes I am super weird, yes I am very insecure about how I'd come across to a client as I have a lot of trouble comporting myself beyond my default setting.

[FrozenBananaStand]

re - academia: I have zero interest in going back to school for the humanities. I agree that humanities grad school is a long shot and it has burned some of my friends.

It would be helpful to know what your debt levels are going to be coming out of school and where in the T14 you're headed. If you have minimal debt, finding a job that is well-suited for your temperament can be top priority, and maybe law school is a reasonable choice. If you're in a position where you have to do biglaw to support yourself, you might be more reliant on a set of social skills you claim you don't possess. (Caveat: your level of self-awareness in this thread belies your opinion of yourself; I think if you're polite and nice, quietness won't hinder you much).

Also, if you're very young and have little professional experience, it could be worth your while to find some and reapply to school. Work at a law firm for a while and see if being a lawyer is what you really want to do. Your t14 acceptance could be a way to get your foot in the door with a firm.

Lower T14... not the bottom though. I will have ~$100k of debt, so I don't think I can job shop. I am almost 30 but I have no professional experience, my work experience is years of manual labour. I am open to doing humble PI things and am ok with not making a lot of money in my career but I have read/heard that PI hiring is very 'fit' dependent. Also because I am not quick on my feet I doubt I would be an effective litigator. I have no interest in crim.

Under no circumstance should you try for law. It's a huge investment (time and money). Even for areas where you don't have to have much interaction with clients or courts (like ERISA or Tax) you still have to get through the interview. If people think you are weird, you'll have a really tough time getting a job. And even if you did, people will shun you because they can't trust you in front of a client.

You don't have to be outgoing and sociable for law, but you can't be a weirdo shutin either.

Law school would be a horrible mistake.

Do accounting or programming or something. Something that won't require a large investment.

Thanks for your candid advice. Yes I am super weird, yes I am very insecure about how I'd come across to a client as I have a lot of trouble comporting myself beyond my default setting.

This is tough. $100,000 is a lot of debt, but it's not sticker, either. If you go the law route, you'll need good grades to land biglaw, and your previous work experience probably won't be a benefit beyond showing that you have the maturity to work hard doing something unpleasant. That said, I think the fact that you have acknowledged your poor interview skills this early on in the process will help you out a lot. Career services offices, bumbling though they are, do provide a lot in the way of interview prep if you seek it out. You have time to become a better interviewer, and you're probably better at it now than you think.

[Aspie Striver]

Fwiw, most of my undergrad pals that lack social awareness are pursuing the Phd route instead of law school specifically because the thought of arguing in courtroom packed with ppl gives them nightmares.

[SeattleStudent]

I don't have a reply to the shyness question, but I did want to add my two cents on this issue of awkwardness and becoming a professor...

The education field has changed greatly since the days your old, crazy haired, zaney professor landed their job in the 70's. Just like law (and a lot of other fields) there is an overflow of qualified job seekers. On top of that, cuts to education post-2007 have been enormous, especially in the humanities fields. The result is a job market that is *very* dependent on who you know, how outgoing and likeable you are in interviews and mock-class interviews, and I'll add also your ability to move anywhere around the country, possibly chasing jobs after every 2 years that your temp contract is up, even at well-funded private universities.

For reference, I know five people in this field, and as a non-traditional aged student have also made friends with several professors. One of them, a Harvard PhD, had a conversation with me about how difficult it was for him - from Harvard! - to find a job. Things have really changed in the last ten(ish) years. Wish more professors could chime in here, but alas its a law board. Just wanted to add my two cents so OP isn't lured into another profession that now requires similiar skills in order to succeed.

[DrRighteous]

OP already knows not to go for a PhD, based on previous statements but I guess I should chime in and say PhDs are painful. Obviously feeling like you can't speak up is a problem when pursuing a degree that places high value on original thought, composition, etc. Add in the publication review process and you have pretty much hell on earth for anyone who isn't pretty damned confident in themselves/good at presenting themselves publicly through a variety of media.

That being said, most of the PhDs I know are more authentically themselves at work than many the lawyers I know. But small n, probably doesn't generalize, might be a biased/subjective opinion, etc. etc.

[Cogburn87]

I have a hard time believing that someone with this apparent level of self-awareness is really and truly awkward to the point of it hindering their ability to get a job.

(guy who has never met someone with an anxiety disorder)

[BigZuck]

I have a hard time believing that someone with this apparent level of self-awareness is really and truly awkward to the point of it hindering their ability to get a job.

(guy who has never met someone with an anxiety disorder)

(nah)

[krads153]

Under no circumstance should you try for law. It's a huge investment (time and money). Even for areas where you don't have to have much interaction with clients or courts (like ERISA or Tax) you still have to get through the interview. If people think you are weird, you'll have a really tough time getting a job. And even if you did, people will shun you because they can't trust you in front of a client.

You don't have to be outgoing and sociable for law, but you can't be a weirdo shutin either.

Law school would be a horrible mistake.

Do accounting or programming or something. Something that won't require a large investment.

Agree with this. My first thought was programming.

It's not just about interviews and going to court though. It's also about getting work in private practice, and a big part of that is having people enjoy working with you (it's not just work product). You might have trouble getting work at a firm.

There are plenty of shy people in law, but the ones that come off as really weird or whatever don't last long.

Also, most PhDs are a ton of work - it's more work on average than law or med school, so I wouldn't recommend that unless you know exactly what you want to write a dissertation on and are committed to dedicating years of your life to it.