How far down the ladder does LS at sticker become an objectively bad decision? Forum

FirmBiz · Post by **FirmBiz** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:32 pm

brotherdarkness wrote:
FirmBiz wrote:
brotherdarkness wrote:
Seamus887 wrote:
El Pollito wrote:
jetsfan1 wrote:For those of you saying Y, are you saying that going to H or S at sticker is a bad career/economic move? Again, the question isn't if there are better options but if that decision in and of itself is inherently bad.
being a debt peon for a decade is pretty inherently bad
If it takes you a decade you can't budget.
Oh sure, just live in squalor so that you can pay back Uncle Sam at ~8% ASAP.
Not everyone needs to pay for their own living. You're forgetting that a lot of students that are going into law are 20-21 and are still at home.
I think living at home while going to law school is pretty abnormal. I'm sure there are some who do this, but I don't know any.

Anyways, answering this question based on the exception rather than the rule is foolish.

Oh sure, I get that, but there are exceptions, although it may not be the norm, it does happen.

jkpolk · Post by **jkpolk** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:32 pm

Seamus887 wrote:Look I am not saying go to any school and take any job and it's cool, but if you go to CCN and get a $160,000 starting salary, which you probably will if you want, then you can pay your debt off pretty fast. If you think living off $50,000ish after tax is living in squalor, then I guess I can't say much to that. The further down you go the riskier it is, but Cornell gives you a damn good shot of making enough to pay off your sticker debt as well. Also if you go to a top school and pursue PI your debt can be forgiven in like 5 years I believe. I just really think it's stupid to say no matter what Yale is the only one worth sticker.

You're wrong.

Tiago Splitter · Post by **Tiago Splitter** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:32 pm

FirmBiz wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
FirmBiz wrote:sticker at some schools isn't a terrible decision under certain circumstances.
Assuming you're going private sector and don't have family paying, I'm not sure what those circumstances are. I guess for the rare person who is only in at WUSTL and CLS/NYU maybe. Maybe.
You could be in a school ranked 50-80 with a large or full and get into WUSTL or Cornell at sticker.

These things happen all the time, look at LSN, people have gotten into Cornell well below the median.

No they don't. Maybe they happen, but not with regularity. I know people who got only WUSTL and one of CLS/NYU. But it's rare.

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:34 pm

Post removed.

El Pollito · Post by **El Pollito** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:35 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Seamus887 wrote:Look I am not saying go to any school and take any job and it's cool, but if you go to CCN and get a $160,000 starting salary, which you probably will if you want, then you can pay your debt off pretty fast. If you think living off $50,000ish after tax is living in squalor, then I guess I can't say much to that. The further down you go the riskier it is, but Cornell gives you a damn good shot of making enough to pay off your sticker debt as well. Also if you go to a top school and pursue PI your debt can be forgiven in like 5 years I believe. I just really think it's stupid to say no matter what Yale is the only one worth sticker.
Sticker at CCN is gonna run you 300k. 400k if you pay it down over 10 years. Taking 10 years with 400k does not mean someone has an inability to budget.

yup the cost of sticker is absolutely insane these days

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:36 pm

Post removed.

Tiago Splitter · Post by **Tiago Splitter** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:36 pm

Seamus887 wrote:
El Pollito wrote:
Seamus887 wrote:Look I am not saying go to any school and take any job and it's cool, but if you go to CCN and get a $160,000 starting salary, which you probably will if you want, then you can pay your debt off pretty fast. If you think living off $50,000ish after tax is living in squalor, then I guess I can't say much to that. The further down you go the riskier it is, but Cornell gives you a damn good shot of making enough to pay off your sticker debt as well. Also if you go to a top school and pursue PI your debt can be forgiven in like 5 years I believe. I just really think it's stupid to say no matter what Yale is the only one worth sticker.
i don't think this is accurate for any school
TLS says this about Columbia LRAP,

"Loan Forgiveness
If you participate in the program for less than three years, you are expected to pay back your LRAP loan in full 8. If you participate for between three and four years, Columbia will forgive one-third of your LRAP loan. If you participate for between four and five years, Columbia will forgive two-thirds of your LRAP loan. If you participate in LRAP for five or more years, the full amount of your LRAP loan will be forgiven by Columbia."

Your LRAP loan will be forgiven. Not your debt. Columbia loans you money to pay your debt to the feds, which Columbia then forgives after five years. Which means that until 5 years you actually have to pay Columbia back if you leave public sector work, and then you're still on the hook for the remainder to the feds.

It's ten years for PSLF forgiveness.

brotherdarkness · Post by **brotherdarkness** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:37 pm

~ News Flash ~

There is no one single correct answer to this question. You've gotta take the totality of the circumstances into account.

You got a political science degree, are working a BS job with little or no prospect of advancement, and your family is willing to foot you a no-interest loan? Sticker might be defensible at some schools.

You are an engineer making a good but not great living, currently have no debt, and have always been "intrigued" by the law? Signing up to repay nearly $300k at ~8% is objectively unwise at pretty much any school.

And then there are the millions of other possible scenarios.

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:38 pm

Post removed.

Tiago Splitter · Post by **Tiago Splitter** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:39 pm

Seamus887 wrote:
El Pollito wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Seamus887 wrote:Look I am not saying go to any school and take any job and it's cool, but if you go to CCN and get a $160,000 starting salary, which you probably will if you want, then you can pay your debt off pretty fast. If you think living off $50,000ish after tax is living in squalor, then I guess I can't say much to that. The further down you go the riskier it is, but Cornell gives you a damn good shot of making enough to pay off your sticker debt as well. Also if you go to a top school and pursue PI your debt can be forgiven in like 5 years I believe. I just really think it's stupid to say no matter what Yale is the only one worth sticker.
Sticker at CCN is gonna run you 300k. 400k if you pay it down over 10 years. Taking 10 years with 400k does not mean someone has an inability to budget.
yup the cost of sticker is absolutely insane these days
Would it actually be that much if you include SA and maybe a bit of part time work or pre law savings? Surely you could knock it down to at least $250,000

Just stop trying to justify it dude. I promise you I was in your position four years ago. It's gonna cost even more than you think with the way they keep raising tuition. I told everyone I was gonna finish around 200k in debt, and here I am sitting in the most expensive part of the country and watching it balloon over 240k.

Your summer money isn't gonna go far. Remember you usually don't get paid 1L summer and your living expenses for summer aren't part of the loan package. Making 30k before taxes doesn't really change anything.

And pre-law savings means you aren't paying sticker.

brotherdarkness · Post by **brotherdarkness** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:39 pm

Seamus887 wrote:What do we think of say UT with $$ vs. Columbia at sticker? Are we saying UT is the better option? I just don't see it.

For some kid who grew up in Texas, wants to live in Texas for the rest of his life, blah blah blah?

Tiago Splitter · Post by **Tiago Splitter** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:40 pm

Seamus887 wrote:What do we think of say UT with $$ vs. Columbia at sticker? Are we saying UT is the better option? I just don't see it.

You don't have to go to law school. I wouldn't go to UT in that situation either but I'd probably just shoot for something else knowing what I know now.

At this point I'm all in on PAYE and just pretending like this stuff doesn't exist.

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:44 pm

Post removed.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:45 pm

I basically agree with everything the lawyers have said. Taking 5 years to pay your debt may make you a better budgeter but be stupider financially. So take that into account too.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:45 pm

What are you doing now Seamus?

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:48 pm

Post removed.

shump92 · Post by **shump92** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:49 pm

I feel like this thread was hijacked away from OP. OP has very good stats and quality resume. OP, if debt is a concern for you, then consider some of your higher scholarship offers within the T14 over HYS or CCN. If schools lower in the USNW/TLS hierarchy are as appealing to you, then go there if debt is that intimidating. It's not as if all non-HYS grads are failures for turning down HYS. Good luck, if you go to law school, I am confident you will do well.

Tiago Splitter · Post by **Tiago Splitter** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:49 pm

Seamus887 wrote:Welp I am a splitter so money is very unlikely for me. I am pretty set on this whole law schools deal, guess we will see how it turns out, but I have got to think if heaps of people I know went to TTTTs at sticker and are living better than I am now, I will be ok.

The second part of your post is obviously ridiculous for reasons I don't need to explain to someone with an LSAT as high as yours. To the first part, don't be so fatalistic. People with your numbers can get really good money in the T-14 these days. Apply everywhere and negotiate like an animal.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:51 pm

Seamus887 wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:What are you doing now Seamus?
Paralegal. 30,000ish a year. Liberal arts degree

Yeah fuck that shit. Go to law school.

snagglepuss · Post by **snagglepuss** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:13 am

Just do Northwestern or Cornell with (near) six-figure scholly. CCN is mostly a trap for splitter bros these days.

lavarman84 · Post by **lavarman84** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:14 am

Seamus887 wrote:What do we think of say UT with $$ vs. Columbia at sticker? Are we saying UT is the better option? I just don't see it.

Depends. If you're choosing a strong regional school for COA reasons, choose one that is in the region you want to practice. Don't get overly hung up on rankings. If you want to go to an elite school and are willing to pay sticker, it's your choice. You'll very likely get a good outcome out of Columbia. Problem is that it limits what you can do after you graduate.

Seamus887 wrote:Welp I am a splitter so money is very unlikely for me. I am pretty set on this whole law schools deal, guess we will see how it turns out, but I have got to think if heaps of people I know went to TTTTs at sticker and are living better than I am now, I will be ok.

With your stats, you'll get money at t14 schools.

Ron Howard · Post by **Ron Howard** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:15 am

I think every T14 can be justifiable at sticker under certain, though rare, circumstances. But debt sucks, and someone choosing between CCN at sticker and UVA or Duke or Berkeley with a $90K scholarship would be wise to choose the latter. If, however, a lower T14 at sticker is the only option, where the alternative is a $30K a year job with little sight of advancement and a retake would not help, it too may be justifiable--maybe.

ManoftheHour · Post by **ManoftheHour** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:16 am

El Pollito wrote:S

jetsfan1 · Post by **jetsfan1** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:41 am

Wow thanks for all the debate. My current thinking is that Y would be worth it, HS questionable but I'm leaning yes, and anything below that would need good money. The question becomes when does CCN become worth more than HS or Y. This is all a bit premature I realize, as I haven't even decided to apply yet (let alone be accepted anywhere), but I think it's good to think about and have set cutoffs so if I do I can say anything more than X debt at school Y makes that school not worth it.

Anyway, carry on! Lol this was as much out of curiosity as it was for informing my own decision making. Kind of interesting to hear people's cut off if they had to pay sticker with loans.

runinthefront · Post by **runinthefront** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:03 am

Someone mentioned 50k not being bad. They're right//50k in NYC as a 20 something year old working 40 or even 45-50 hours a week is better than most people have it. But most professionals making 50k aren't on call 24/7, billing 2500+ with a quarter million dollars of debt and an important mid year review coming up.

I don't think I would ever take CCN at sticker. I would take my state flagship at sticker over CCN, actually. Going less than 100k in debt for decent odds at a decent job with billing decent hours vs 300k in debt for a decent job with a miserable hours requirement in a high CoL city?

I'm picking the former