Kansas Law admissions dean thread discussion thread Forum

[Businesslady]

Not to be too cynical, and obviously everyone deserves top-notch representation et cetera, but isn't this an "if a tree falls in the forest" question? Like, if you fuck up some formality to the detriment of the type of client who's stuck hiring your 4L ass in the first place, does it make a sound? I mean, maybe there's the Ethics King of Bumfuck Nowhere on call to raid you for your policy limits on contingency, but that doesn't seem menacing enough to structure legal education around. Disclaimer: I know fucking jack shit about any of this

[20160810]

Not to be too cynical, and obviously everyone deserves top-notch representation et cetera, but isn't this an "if a tree falls in the forest" question? Like, if you fuck up some formality to the detriment of the type of client who's stuck hiring your 4L ass in the first place, does it make a sound? I mean, maybe there's the Ethics King of Bumfuck Nowhere on call to raid you for your policy limits on contingency, but that doesn't seem menacing enough to structure legal education around. Disclaimer: I know fucking jack shit about any of this

Practically speaking of course you have a longer leash when you're dealing with unsophisticated clients who don't know they're getting bad service but ethics &c

Plus your malpractice insurance is still priced pretty high

[Businesslady]

Sure but like to the extent we're talking about people going to Kansas Law knowing they want to do solo practice or pretty much anything else for that matter, the point is that using LST numbers for T1-T2 schools apples-to-apples with T14s for anything beyond trying to understand geographical placement and reputation beyond the area is just dumber than shit

[fats provolone]

"malpractice" is a ridiculous red herring, and it annoys me because it implies the main barrier to success as a solo is lawyering skills or w/e. that's dumb. the hard part is obviously getting clients who will pay you.

there is tons and tons of shit a new lawyer could do w/ little to no experience. i mean you work at a firm right, and even then how often does someone actually tell you what you're supposed to do? it's not that hard to figure shit out. esp. transactional stuff.

[sublime]

..

[fats provolone]

i bet at least half of all malpractice claims are about missing deadlines.

[20160810]

"malpractice" is a ridiculous red herring, and it annoys me because it implies the main barrier to success as a solo is lawyering skills or w/e. that's dumb. the hard part is obviously getting clients who will pay you.

there is tons and tons of shit a new lawyer could do w/ little to no experience. i mean you work at a firm right, and even then how often does someone actually tell you what you're supposed to do? it's not that hard to figure shit out. esp. transactional stuff.

Getting clients is pretty easy. I know a lot of bankruptcy solos and they basically just spent a shitload of money on Google ads and wait for the phone to ring. I really think doing a shitty job is the bigger concern. I am constantly having people look over my shoulder and review my work, which is good at this point in my career. Even when I am figuring shit out on my own, which is increasingly often, it's done by referencing materials a 4L solo probably couldn't afford or asking other associates for help. Even now after clerking for a year and practicing for like a year and a half id be pretty freaked out about going solo and probably would only do a few things

[20160810]

i bet at least half of all malpractice claims are about missing deadlines.

This is probably true but not missing them is a lot easier when you have computer programs, staff members and other attorneys to keep you focused

I get vision reminders emailed to me whenever deadlines come up in one of my cases and its great

[sublime]

..

[Businesslady]

Even when I am figuring shit out on my own, which is increasingly often, it's done by referencing materials a 4L solo probably couldn't afford or asking other associates for help.

This does seem like a thing but I feel like a school serious about solos could still consider 1) extending its licenses for the materials available online to recent grads for a reasonable period of time and 2) expanding its practice clinics to include informal advice to recent grads in solo practice (with whatever disclaimers and indemnities necessary) as an admittedly way inferior substitute for associate supervision so the door doesn't hit them in the ass so hard when they get diplomas.

It just doesn't seem like that much of a thing in this instance, though, and there's gotta be a law Stack Overflow somewhere. Is the secret lawyer board fun?

[utahraptor]

"malpractice" is a ridiculous red herring, and it annoys me because it implies the main barrier to success as a solo is lawyering skills or w/e. that's dumb. the hard part is obviously getting clients who will pay you.

there is tons and tons of shit a new lawyer could do w/ little to no experience. i mean you work at a firm right, and even then how often does someone actually tell you what you're supposed to do? it's not that hard to figure shit out. esp. transactional stuff.

maybe, but I think that it's something that stresses people out, I think ?every? solo on SA has had a legal malpractice suit filed against them (and a complaint to the state bar association, &c.)

I'd be less concerned about the "can I do this" than the "am I equipped to handle this when people said I did it wrong"

[A. Nony Mouse]

Sure but like to the extent we're talking about people going to Kansas Law knowing they want to do solo practice or pretty much anything else for that matter, the point is that using LST numbers for T1-T2 schools apples-to-apples with T14s for anything beyond trying to understand geographical placement and reputation beyond the area is just dumber than shit

I actually pretty much agree with this (mostly because I went to a regional school and while obviously it doesn't have T14 outcomes, I'm not sure LST bare numbers give the full picture. If you go expecting/wanting T14 outcomes obviously that's not going to work, and that kind of mismatch + debt can still be a huge issue. I think LST is clearly the place to start and doing important work, of course).

I don't think going solo, especially if you're in a smaller market, is impossible. I have no desire ever to do it, but I think the right person can pull it off, and that you can use your time in law school to gain skills for that. I do think it's a small percentage of grads who have any shot at making it work, though. And like with everything about law school, trying to go solo is a way worse idea if you're trailing clouds of debt, which too many people are.

Re: getting legal malpractice suits *filed* against you - isn't that just the cost of being a solo? Many people are idiots who will be inclined to sue their lawyers when the lawyer couldn't make miracles happen, ie win their impossible case. You can't do much about that. It's losing the suits or getting sanctioned that's the issue.

[WichitaShocker]

"malpractice" is a ridiculous red herring, and it annoys me because it implies the main barrier to success as a solo is lawyering skills or w/e. that's dumb. the hard part is obviously getting clients who will pay you.

there is tons and tons of shit a new lawyer could do w/ little to no experience. i mean you work at a firm right, and even then how often does someone actually tell you what you're supposed to do? it's not that hard to figure shit out. esp. transactional stuff.

I can't speak to the malpractice discussion because I am just a 0L, and my knowledge of malpractice is "do bad stuff, get in trouble". In terms of KU grads going solo, I know it is not uncommon for KU and Washburn grads (the other Kansas LS),and a lot of them do quite well (a lot fail too). The thing is a lot that are going "solo" are doing so in one horse towns where they have lived all their lives and will have no problem getting clients, because everyone knows them. In addition to that, a lot go solo in these small towns by taking the spot of daddy as the towns only attorney.

[starry eyed]

"malpractice" is a ridiculous red herring, and it annoys me because it implies the main barrier to success as a solo is lawyering skills or w/e. that's dumb. the hard part is obviously getting clients who will pay you.

there is tons and tons of shit a new lawyer could do w/ little to no experience. i mean you work at a firm right, and even then how often does someone actually tell you what you're supposed to do? it's not that hard to figure shit out. esp. transactional stuff.

Yes, i would add that focusing on stuff you can get done quick (real estate closing, no-fault divorces, etc) would be much more profitable than engaging in drawn out court proceedings. Also, location is a huge consideration too. The quick transactional solo-ers would be at an advantage versus the bunch of solo-ers that are huddled around courthouses competing with each other, especially if they choose an area with little competition. ie. far away from court, and in smaller cities. The hard part of being a solo practitioner is not the actual lawyering, it's the ability to get a good reputation in the area you're working in. a lot of that comes down to personality/communication skills. A less depressing way to think of being a solo-er is that you're really more of a businessman than a lawyer practicing shitlaw.

[cotiger]

So 60% employment + 8* students

*(Including "a fair percentage don’t make it long-term")

I didn't truly understand how absurdly entitled this mentality was until I started looking into other grad programs. Law schools have BY FAR the best and most detailed employment disclosures of any graduate field. I was a little distressed about this until I realized that in most other fields the act of finding you a job isn't seen as ultimately the responsibility of the school. At the best law schools the majority of the people find their incredibly lucrative employment by literally sitting there as the school arranges their interviews for them (*omg bid list* doesn't count as a job search, sorry).

People seem MAF at schools like KU in part bc they're just offering you the degree and not that immediate job offer along with it. Bar results don't come out until like November, so that means that 40% of the class hasn't found a job within 4 months of being qualified for one. Obviously 100% immediate employment would be awesome, but irl shit takes time.

For sure, as an educational institution there's a moral obligation not to be fucking over your students by gouging them with tuition and pumping out way more than will be able to use the degree. But $20k/yr for a legal education doesn't sound particularly unreasonable (esp. w/ 80% getting some sort of reduction and 25% getting more than half off), and neither does producing ~100 grads/year as the state flagship.

But by all means continue with the righteous got'ems.

[20160810]

Even when I am figuring shit out on my own, which is increasingly often, it's done by referencing materials a 4L solo probably couldn't afford or asking other associates for help.

This does seem like a thing but I feel like a school serious about solos could still consider 1) extending its licenses for the materials available online to recent grads for a reasonable period of time and 2) expanding its practice clinics to include informal advice to recent grads in solo practice (with whatever disclaimers and indemnities necessary) as an admittedly way inferior substitute for associate supervision so the door doesn't hit them in the ass so hard when they get diplomas.

It just doesn't seem like that much of a thing in this instance, though, and there's gotta be a law Stack Overflow somewhere. Is the secret lawyer board fun?

I think law schools making their library materials available to graduates who go solo would be awesome.

[20160810]

Sure but like to the extent we're talking about people going to Kansas Law knowing they want to do solo practice or pretty much anything else for that matter, the point is that using LST numbers for T1-T2 schools apples-to-apples with T14s for anything beyond trying to understand geographical placement and reputation beyond the area is just dumber than shit

I actually pretty much agree with this (mostly because I went to a regional school and while obviously it doesn't have T14 outcomes, I'm not sure LST bare numbers give the full picture. If you go expecting/wanting T14 outcomes obviously that's not going to work, and that kind of mismatch + debt can still be a huge issue. I think LST is clearly the place to start and doing important work, of course).

I don't think going solo, especially if you're in a smaller market, is impossible. I have no desire ever to do it, but I think the right person can pull it off, and that you can use your time in law school to gain skills for that. I do think it's a small percentage of grads who have any shot at making it work, though. And like with everything about law school, trying to go solo is a way worse idea if you're trailing clouds of debt, which too many people are.

Re: getting legal malpractice suits *filed* against you - isn't that just the cost of being a solo? Many people are idiots who will be inclined to sue their lawyers when the lawyer couldn't make miracles happen, ie win their impossible case. You can't do much about that. It's losing the suits or getting sanctioned that's the issue.

The other big issue with going solo (apart from consumer bankruptcy, DWI, or other things where you get paid up-front) is that even if you don't get sued for malpractice, losing might mean that you can't ever collect your fees from the client, and when you're a brand new lawyer running her own shop 1 or 2 non-paying clients could mean doom.

[bk1]

The other big issue with going solo (apart from consumer bankruptcy, DWI, or other things where you get paid up-front) is that even if you don't get sued for malpractice, losing might mean that you can't ever collect your fees from the client, and when you're a brand new lawyer running her own shop 1 or 2 non-paying clients could mean doom.

This was FD's original point (that getting paying clients is the biggest barrier). I know fuckall about BK but even if you're right that it is so complex that newly minted JDs couldn't handle it solo, there are undoubtedly other areas that are simple enough that newly minted JDs could handle it solo (e.g. DWI/wills as mentioned above).

I do really like the idea of law schools making their law libraries available to recent grads.

[AReasonableMan]

The other big issue with going solo (apart from consumer bankruptcy, DWI, or other things where you get paid up-front) is that even if you don't get sued for malpractice, losing might mean that you can't ever collect your fees from the client, and when you're a brand new lawyer running her own shop 1 or 2 non-paying clients could mean doom.

This was FD's original point (that getting paying clients is the biggest barrier). I know fuckall about BK but even if you're right that it is so complex that newly minted JDs couldn't handle it solo, there are undoubtedly other areas that are simple enough that newly minted JDs could handle it solo (e.g. DWI/wills as mentioned above).

I do really like the idea of law schools making their law libraries available to recent grads.

If schools know that many grads will be going solo they should really respond by offering entire classes about how to go into business for themselves. Rule 7 of the Model Rules of Professional Conduct touch on this, but they really have to do a better job of making them practice ready. Everyone knows that nobody is really practice ready coming out of law school, but in big law or clerking you really don't have to be. Your job is really do what the Partner X/Judge Y tells me to, and this is likely going to be researching or writing. You learn slowly from watching the pro you're working for. If you're going solo, you have to know the in's and out's of advertising, fee agreements, collecting money, etc. out the gate. Presumably, a K-JD will be incredibly easy to take advantage of, especially if they are dealing with the type of clientele who'd go to a 26 yr old solo.

[bk1]

If schools know that many grads will be going solo they should really respond by offering entire classes about how to go into business for themselves. Rule 7 of the Model Rules of Professional Conduct touch on this, but they really have to do a better job of making them practice ready. Everyone knows that nobody is really practice ready coming out of law school, but in big law or clerking you really don't have to be. Your job is really do what the Partner X/Judge Y tells me to, and this is likely going to be researching or writing. You learn slowly from watching the pro you're working for. If you're going solo, you have to know the in's and out's of advertising, fee agreements, collecting money, etc. out the gate.

I'm not sure you have to know those things coming out of the gate (i.e. some people will succeed even without that knowledge), but I do think that if you do have some familiarity with them that you're far more likely to succeed. I think that all schools should offer classes in it and the ABA maybe even make it mandatory (because it's not like all the electives that law students take are all that meaningful).

Presumably, a K-JD will be incredibly easy to take advantage of, especially if they are dealing with the type of clientele who'd go to a 26 yr old solo.

My suspicion is that the kind of person who would go to a solo fresh JD would also be fairly unsophisticated. Unless you mean that the kind of person who would go to a solo fresh JD would not have a ton of money and may just decide not to pay because they have to make rent that month, then I agree that this person would take advantage of the solo (though not necessarily intentionally from the start).

[AReasonableMan]

If schools know that many grads will be going solo they should really respond by offering entire classes about how to go into business for themselves. Rule 7 of the Model Rules of Professional Conduct touch on this, but they really have to do a better job of making them practice ready. Everyone knows that nobody is really practice ready coming out of law school, but in big law or clerking you really don't have to be. Your job is really do what the Partner X/Judge Y tells me to, and this is likely going to be researching or writing. You learn slowly from watching the pro you're working for. If you're going solo, you have to know the in's and out's of advertising, fee agreements, collecting money, etc. out the gate.

I'm not sure you have to know those things coming out of the gate (i.e. some people will succeed even without that knowledge), but I do think that if you do have some familiarity with them that you're far more likely to succeed. I think that all schools should offer classes in it and the ABA maybe even make it mandatory (because it's not like all the electives that law students take are all that meaningful).

Presumably, a K-JD will be incredibly easy to take advantage of, especially if they are dealing with the type of clientele who'd go to a 26 yr old solo.

My suspicion is that the kind of person who would go to a solo fresh JD would also be fairly unsophisticated. Unless you mean that the kind of person who would go to a solo fresh JD would not have a ton of money and may just decide not to pay because they have to make rent that month, then I agree that this person would take advantage of the solo (though not necessarily intentionally from the start).

I meant more that it's a different kind of clientele. For instance, a mortgage broker who refinances a two-million dollar business loan may need more expertise than one who refinances an eighty thousand dollar loan on a family home. However, the latter is much more likely to run into payment issues. I don't doubt that a newly minted JD won't have to handle complex cases, and also don't doubt most of these clientele couldn't care less if the lawyer went to Yale or Kansas. My concern is that many are only going to the newly minted JD, because the seasoned more reputable attorneys don't want their business. The idea that individuals with assets requiring probate or a trust will pop into a random place in the cheap area of town because it has a "wills" sign seems pretty naive. I could be wrong, but I'd suspect it's deadbeat city.

[bk1]

My concern is that many are only going to the newly minted JD, because the seasoned more reputable attorneys don't want their business.

Reputable attorneys aren't just turning away cases that are sure losers, they're turning away cases that aren't worth it to them (i.e. not a good enough return). Ideally new JDs would be picking up the latter and hopefully law school curriculum can help them tell the difference between the two.

[AReasonableMan]

My concern is that many are only going to the newly minted JD, because the seasoned more reputable attorneys don't want their business.

Reputable attorneys aren't just turning away cases that are sure losers, they're turning away cases that aren't worth it to them (i.e. not a good enough return). Ideally new JDs would be picking up the latter and hopefully law school curriculum can help them tell the difference between the two.

No, I meant individuals reputable attorneys wouldn't take because they're unlikely to get paid. I'm sure simple tort cases like a slip and fall in a local business would be easy to get a quick settlement check on, but for DWI's and divorces, a newly minted solo may only be getting judgment proof clientele. Even if an individual was living paycheck to paycheck and got a DWI, you'd think they would sell most of their possessions on Ebay to get the best representation. People take things like their liberty pretty seriously. A solo would be trying to pay their rent on the runt of the litter. You've got to imagine when most people have a legal issue, they ask friends and relatives if they know a good lawyer. I'd suspect most of these people would walk through the door because they cant afford/were turned down by these reputable lawyers.

[bk1]

Even if an individual was living paycheck to paycheck and got a DWI, you'd think they would sell most of their possessions on Ebay to get the best representation. People take things like their liberty pretty seriously. You would kind of be expecting to pay your rent on the runt of the litter.

People do not sell all their stuff to get the "best" lawyer. And, I believe, most first time DUIs aren't looking at serious jail time.

[AReasonableMan]

Even if an individual was living paycheck to paycheck and got a DWI, you'd think they would sell most of their possessions on Ebay to get the best representation. People take things like their liberty pretty seriously. You would kind of be expecting to pay your rent on the runt of the litter.

People do not sell all their stuff to get the "best" lawyer. And, I believe, most first time DUIs aren't looking at serious jail time.

You're probably right. I'm just having a hard time understanding why they'd go to a freshly minted JD. Why would they expect this to benefit them?