Misdemeanor for civil disobedience affect admissions? Forum

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quijotesca1011

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Re: Misdemeanor for civil disobedience affect admissions?

Post by quijotesca1011 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:22 pm

SFrost wrote:Civil disobedience is by definition against what being a lawyer is about. Lawyers follow and respect the law. I think this is a major character fault (if you had gone through with it).

I would also question the necessity of civil disobedience. Just because you disagree with something does not give you the right to break the law to try and change it. There's a democratic system in place to enact change. If you're a lawyer and disagree with a judge's decision, are you going to strip down in court to make your point heard?
I don't know that I agree with this. Lawyers should no more blindly follow the law than any other profession (indeed, as they are scholars of the law, they are most called to act when they see the law - or the State - perpetuating injustice -- I'm not saying that action has to be civil disobedience, but that is indeed one form of social protest).

Gandhi was a lawyer, would you say his civil disobedience was inappropriate?

Civil disobedience is indeed a means of protesting within democracy. I would assume most posters already know this, but given the nature of some of these comments I think it's worth bringing up again some of the most famous historic examples of civil disobedience:

- India, as noted above
- South Africa during apartheid
- Czechoslovakia's Velvet Revolution
- the Civil Rights Movement

I fail to see how participating in justified civil disobedience, therefore, could demonstrate, "a major character fault." You may not agree with the means, and as I understand the point that lawyers are in a particularly complex position, but that does not mean it is a 'character flaw' if the action is taken in the pursuit of justice (aren't lawyers supposed to be working for justice?) I also don't think civil disobedience is in all cases 'by definition' against what being a lawyer is about. Would you say that lawyers in South Africa under apartheid or the Jim Crow South would have been betraying their profession by participating in civil disobedience against those regimes?

Personally I think civil disobedience probably isn't the most effective way for a lawyer in particular to affect change, since they have a particular power to work within the system that they would risk by breaking the law. Still, it's a decision that merits respect, in my opinion - how many people are willing to put their profession and livelihood on the line to fight injustice? Nonviolent civil disobedience means that you agree to take the consequences of your action to demonstrate that a law is unjust.

I'm not sure about the particulars of this situation (I'm thinking it's referring to UT, but don't know much about what's going on) so I'm not sure how civil disobedience is acting as part of a greater social movement in this case. But to "question the necessity of civil disobedience." in general is to ignore the role that this form of protest has played in history.

Personally, OP, I do think your decision is probably the right one, just in terms of considering range of impact. If you think that you could have the most impactful career in PI as a lawyer, and taking part in this act of civil disobedience could harm your ability to pursue that particular career (which it seems that it could), then your longterm impact would be greater by sitting this one out or supporting in other ways.

Also, another side note, I don't know how 500 people is "a few people simply being let go." That's 500 people and families who's lives are about to change, who may have trouble paying the bills and putting food on the table. It may not be a lot compared to other lay-offs, but I think it's great that students stand up for campus employees and should be applauded. And given what's going on with public higher education in many states around the country, it's probably not a simple matter of "letting them go." As I said, I'm not familiar with the particular case but it very well may be product of increasing pressure to decrease funding to public higher education. As such, this protest would fit into a lot of others going on around the country.
Last edited by quijotesca1011 on Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sublime

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Re: Misdemeanor for civil disobedience affect admissions?

Post by sublime » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:24 pm

..

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SnakySalmon

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Re: Misdemeanor for civil disobedience affect admissions?

Post by SnakySalmon » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:29 pm

sublime wrote:You spent a really long time replying to a really stupid comment. Props.

quijotesca1011

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Re: Misdemeanor for civil disobedience affect admissions?

Post by quijotesca1011 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:31 pm

yeah sorry, I have an unfortunate tendency to be verbose. but really it was more of a reply to the tenor of the thread in general than that one post I quoted at the beginning.

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SFrost

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Re: Misdemeanor for civil disobedience affect admissions?

Post by SFrost » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:03 pm

sublime wrote:You spent a really long time replying to a really stupid comment. Props.
There was definitely more substance in my post than yours.
quijotesca1011 wrote:Civil disobedience is indeed a means of protesting within democracy. I would assume most posters already know this, but given the nature of some of these comments I think it's worth bringing up again some of the most famous historic examples of civil disobedience:


- India, as noted above
- South Africa during apartheid
- Czechoslovakia's Velvet Revolution
- the Civil Rights Movement
I don't disagree that the above issues are obviously worthy of civil disobedience. These are on quite different levels than people getting fired. People getting fired is nothing comparable to apartheid and is just an absurd comparison.

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quijotesca1011

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Re: Misdemeanor for civil disobedience affect admissions?

Post by quijotesca1011 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:26 am

SFrost wrote:
sublime wrote:You spent a really long time replying to a really stupid comment. Props.
There was definitely more substance in my post than yours.
quijotesca1011 wrote:Civil disobedience is indeed a means of protesting within democracy. I would assume most posters already know this, but given the nature of some of these comments I think it's worth bringing up again some of the most famous historic examples of civil disobedience:


- India, as noted above
- South Africa during apartheid
- Czechoslovakia's Velvet Revolution
- the Civil Rights Movement
I don't disagree that the above issues are obviously worthy of civil disobedience. These are on quite different levels than people getting fired. People getting fired is nothing comparable to apartheid and is just an absurd comparison.
This is probably a battle not worth fighting… but the original posts did not say that civil disobedience was not worth it in this case, they said it was fundamentally "by definition against what being a lawyer is about" … and that's what I was responding to.

And obviously Apartheid and lay-offs are not the same level, I am completely aware of that. But the point is that lawyers have been justified in participating in civil disobedience and will be justified in doing so in the future. It depends on the case.

Again, I don't know much about the UT case, but my assumption would be - as my post read - this isn't an issue of 'people getting fired.' I think it's pretty naïve to assume so. According to a few articles:

http://www.austinchronicle.com/news/201 ... -500-jobs/

http://www.austinchronicle.com/daily/ne ... e-layoffs/

It seems the issues here are more to do with 'austerity'-minded privatization of public education/defunding of public education, outsourcing of jobs, and transparency. You may not be in agreement with the protestors, but they are serious issues being debated in public universities across the country (never mind across the world). I have friends who were arrested for participating civil disobedience in North Carolina against reforms to the public higher education system there, and while the issues weren't identical, there's a significant amount of overlap. And personally I think they deserve a lot of respect for standing up for the public higher education system.

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MKC

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Re: Misdemeanor for civil disobedience affect admissions?

Post by MKC » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:50 am

Image

They're pissed about budget cuts in Spain too, but I think there's more of them. Spain can't afford to do anything either.

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FattyMcFatFat

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Re: Misdemeanor for civil disobedience affect admissions?

Post by FattyMcFatFat » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:56 am

PEOPLE SHOULD NEVER BE FIRED EVAR GAHH STUPID CAPITALISM!!!

Solidarity, bro. Solidarity.

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MistakenGenius

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Post by MistakenGenius » Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:06 am

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quijotesca1011

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Re: Misdemeanor for civil disobedience affect admissions?

Post by quijotesca1011 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:27 am

MistakenGenius wrote:
patogordo wrote:see this is why MLK never went to law school
I disagree with a lot of what you say but I take extra exception to this. OP is not talking about doing something on the level of injustice as Civil Rights. I would imagine virtually every adcomm would be impressed with one of the Freedom Riders. He's talking about basically being a whiny little bitch about his school, something he has no right to complain about. Let those teachers get fired, it's how our country works. OP, yes, this could potentially fuck you over and it won't be impressive to anyone. Lawyers prefer to work within the law.
Checking out after this because I don't think this will go anywhere…

But I don't know that I'd call it 'whiny' when OP is talking about standing with university workers. I would assume it's not exactly a question of personal interest. And students pay tuition, they have a right to voice their concerns - they might not have the right to make the final decision, but they do have a right to say something.

And protest/civil engagement is also part of "how our country" works, as a democracy…

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