Job Market Forum

[bobloblaw0227]

Congrats on getting in and getting some money. In my estimation, with this year shaping up to be the lowest 1L enrollment in law school history (thanks largely to TLS), it is a great time to go to law school. U of A is arguably the best law school in Arizona, and there are sure to be opportunities there. I'm not a career counselor or hiring partner, so I can't give you great advice, but just wanted to drop in and say don't get discouraged with the pervasive negativity on TLS. I'm sure whatever choice you make will work out. Personally, I think if you're going to go to a regional school, go to the one close to where you want to work.

Thank you. Are you an attorney? Which state? I appreciate the feedback, by the way.

Not an attorney, prospective law student as well. I work in BigLaw and interact with lawyers daily who are excited for me as I consult them about this decision. Like you, I have some great schollies and a lot of factors to weigh. I can't really give great advice about your initial question, just wanted to throw in a little positivity to the quagmire of despair that is TLS.

[bobloblaw0227]

...this year [is] shaping up to be the lowest 1L enrollment in law school history

it is a great time to go to law school.

This doesn't really follow.

Actually.... if enrollment is dipping but the amount of jobs remains relatively stable, the percentage of students at law schools enjoying favorable outcomes increases, even if the actual number of those jobs never moves.

And this means that it is a great time to go to law school?

Relative to pretty much anyone who started law school after 2005, yes, it is a great time to go to law school.

[El Principe]

...this year [is] shaping up to be the lowest 1L enrollment in law school history

it is a great time to go to law school.

This doesn't really follow.

Actually.... if enrollment is dipping but the amount of jobs remains relatively stable, the percentage of students at law schools enjoying favorable outcomes increases, even if the actual number of those jobs never moves.

And this means that it is a great time to go to law school?

I think it offers an advantage for some of the low T14s and borderline schools.

It's not like firms are going into the next year knowing they need X amount of first-years, thinking "well, even though we're still short on filling these positions, we'll just stop interviewing guys from USC because we only take top 1/3 at USC; we won't go lower".

I mean, do I really have to explain supply and demand?

Supply of graduates from ABC School of Law decreasing yearly + demand of lawyers needed from ABC Law remains constant --> higher percentage of graduates hired.

No skin off the back of the firms, and it's only a benefit for the student because a higher percentage of students theoretically get employment.

For example, I don't believe the number of students accepting biglaw jobs + fed clerkships changed for Vanderbilt from 2012-2013, however, the percentage jumped from ~38 to ~45 or something like that.

That guy's quote doesn't take into account the fact that the economy could tank, which would affect the demand of jobs, but holding everything else constant, I think there's some merit to his point.

[NovelatLaw]

I'm tired of hearing people tell me 'study harder and go kick ass on the exam'. I'm a hands on person, I enjoy negotiating and arguing and most of all I friggin hate the LSAT. So I'm done with that exam. . . . if you're going to recommend I retake the exam or talk crap about a school ranked 40th then just keep it to yourself.

This is whining in my book.

I'm asking for the views/opinions of professionals who have real life experience preferably in the legal industry.

Yet you are pretty quick to to dismiss those views.

You aren't going to be a trial lawyer right out of the gate. Even if you are, the amount of time spent either arguing or negotiating is a very small percentage of your time. Prep time, research, and writing is the bulk of the practice. Much of that work makes studying for the LSAT seem down right exciting.

I appreciate the feedback and I understand it's not all fun and games. It's not as though I can't handle the LSAT rather It's that I've already dedicated two years of my life on improving my score. Numbers aren't everything and I believe I can be successful without attending a T10 school. I was interested in hearing from professionals who might agree with this view since those of you who disagree seem to be very easy to come by.

Also, you mentioned something earlier along the lines of if I'm only borrowing the amount of money that, say, I can make in my first year out of law, then it would be worth attending. My question to you is: what factors are you basing this calculation on??? And yes, my tuition will be less than 70k.

If you dug hard enough you could probably find someone who would tell you that buying a bunch of lottery tickets is a sound financial investment. That doesn't mean that buying a bunch of lottery tickets is a sound financial investment.

I'm not sure you really understand what law school/legal practice is all about. It's not mock trial every day, usually you're nose deep in stuff that's way more esoteric and soul-numbingly dull than the material on the LSAT. If studying for tests ain't your thing, then don't go to law school.

Also, don't go to law school unless you can attend a strong regional for cheap and are prepared to live and work in that region long term, OR it's a tippy top school. Going to UofA and trying to get a job in CA is a really poor decision IMO. I know someone who did that, would not recommend. She found something eventually, but it took a long time, its low paying and not a practice area that she particularly enjoys. She basically just had to take what she could get because employers aren't particularly clamoring for UofA grads in CA. Also, she's attractive so that should have given her a solid bump, if she was a schmo she might still be looking for a job. Plus she has to carry around DAT DEBT. It's just one anecdote I know, but I'd imagine that a lot of people struggle like that when you look at the job placement statistics of schools like this.

Only way to win the lottery is to have the winning ticket and that's usually the result of playing. Comparatively there must be more ways to becoming a successful attorney, even if it's in Arizona. Will the odds be against me? I can't say. But betting against the odds usually have higher returns. Still betting on a successful career is much easier than successfully choosing your madness bracket. So, I get it, it's a risk, but what's the worst that can happen? I'm 70k in debt as a failed attorney, who ends up working as a CPA in the exciting world of audit? It's worth the risk IMO.

Studying is my thing! I love studying and learning and writing and talking and playing the guitar. I love life! Why shouldn't I? My dilemma was whether I should continue studying for the LSAT or begin studying to become an attorney at a regionally strong law school in AZ. Perhaps I need to warm up to the idea of working in AZ for some time, perhaps for the remainder of my life/career. I can adapt. I'm sure. Or, just maybe, we can conclude this conversation with an interview at the end of my first year in AZ...Are you in CA?

[CO2016YEAH]

I read a bunch of the replies and I'll pretty much echo what everyone has said. Unless you go to a T-14 elite school your school's reputation and network will be more or less local. Can you build a career local to where you go and lateral back? Maybe. Can you network in CA from wherever you go outside of AZ? Less likely, and you're competing with lots of smart CA students that have been interning/externing/clerking here for free during law school that will be vying to snap up any openings for grads.

Most importantly, your statement that you are sick of/can't take more of the lsat and just want to get on with it because you enjoy negotiating and arguing is highly indicative that you won't like law school and have no idea what you are in for. Good luck with that.

If you don't like repetitive, often mind-numbing, and sometimes incredibly exhausting studying than skip law school. Any arguing you will do in law school will be based on tireless research, writing, analyzing, citing, and editing. The same applies to most jobs you will get out of law school, at least for the first several years. Yes. The Lsat is virtually a game.

If you like negotiating and arguing become an alcoholic used car salesman/woman and get into a dysfunctional marriage.

[NovelatLaw]

Congrats on getting in and getting some money. In my estimation, with this year shaping up to be the lowest 1L enrollment in law school history (thanks largely to TLS), it is a great time to go to law school. U of A is arguably the best law school in Arizona, and there are sure to be opportunities there. I'm not a career counselor or hiring partner, so I can't give you great advice, but just wanted to drop in and say don't get discouraged with the pervasive negativity on TLS. I'm sure whatever choice you make will work out. Personally, I think if you're going to go to a regional school, go to the one close to where you want to work.

Thank you. Are you an attorney? Which state? I appreciate the feedback, by the way.

Not an attorney, prospective law student as well. I work in BigLaw and interact with lawyers daily who are excited for me as I consult them about this decision. Like you, I have some great schollies and a lot of factors to weigh. I can't really give great advice about your initial question, just wanted to throw in a little positivity to the quagmire of despair that is TLS.

Congrats to you as well and good luck on your decision process! Also thanks for the positive vibe!

[copingtrope]

I mean, do I really have to explain supply and demand?

I think I'm good. Thanks. Look, everything you just said was actually quite obvious, and I don't deny that that could be the case. But that still doesn't mean it's a "great time to go to law school." When something becomes slightly less terrible, that does not necessarily mean it's "great." That's all I'm saying.

[NovelatLaw]

I read a bunch of the replies and I'll pretty much echo what everyone has said. Unless you go to a T-14 elite school your school's reputation and network will be more or less local. Can you build a career local to where you go and lateral back? Maybe. Can you network in CA from wherever you go outside of AZ? Less likely, and you're competing with lots of smart CA students that have been interning/externing/clerking here for free during law school that will be vying to snap up any openings for grads.

Most importantly, your statement that you are sick of/can't take more of the lsat and just want to get on with it because you enjoy negotiating and arguing is highly indicative that you won't like law school and have no idea what you are in for. Good luck with that.

If you don't like repetitive, often mind-numbing, and sometimes incredibly exhausting studying than skip law school. Any arguing you will do in law school will be based on tireless research, writing, analyzing, citing, and editing. The same applies to most jobs you will get out of law school, at least for the first several years. Yes. The Lsat is virtually a game.

If you like negotiating and arguing become an alcoholic used car salesman/woman and get into a dysfunctional marriage.

Pahahah! Duly noted. However I'm sure life will be more challenging on this path than it would be for a disappointed law student who's in over his head. I appreciate the feedback.

[CO2016YEAH]

If you dug hard enough you could probably find someone who would tell you that buying a bunch of lottery tickets is a sound financial investment. That doesn't mean that buying a bunch of lottery tickets is a sound financial investment.

I'm not sure you really understand what law school/legal practice is all about. It's not mock trial every day, usually you're nose deep in stuff that's way more esoteric and soul-numbingly dull than the material on the LSAT. If studying for tests ain't your thing, then don't go to law school.

Also, don't go to law school unless you can attend a strong regional for cheap and are prepared to live and work in that region long term, OR it's a tippy top school. Going to UofA and trying to get a job in CA is a really poor decision IMO. I know someone who did that, would not recommend. She found something eventually, but it took a long time, its low paying and not a practice area that she particularly enjoys. She basically just had to take what she could get because employers aren't particularly clamoring for UofA grads in CA. Also, she's attractive so that should have given her a solid bump, if she was a schmo she might still be looking for a job. Plus she has to carry around DAT DEBT. It's just one anecdote I know, but I'd imagine that a lot of people struggle like that when you look at the job placement statistics of schools like this.

Only way to win the lottery is to have the winning ticket and that's usually the result of playing. Comparatively there must be more ways to becoming a successful attorney, even if it's in Arizona. Will the odds be against me? I can't say. But betting against the odds usually have higher returns. Still betting on a successful career is much easier than successfully choosing your madness bracket. So, I get it, it's a risk, but what's the worst that can happen? I'm 70k in debt as a failed attorney, who ends up working as a CPA in the exciting world of audit? It's worth the risk IMO.

Studying is my thing! I love studying and learning and writing and talking and playing the guitar. I love life! Why shouldn't I? My dilemma was whether I should continue studying for the LSAT or begin studying to become an attorney at a regionally strong law school in AZ. Perhaps I need to warm up to the idea of working in AZ for some time, perhaps for the remainder of my life/career. I can adapt. I'm sure. Or, just maybe, we can conclude this conversation with an interview at the end of my first year in AZ...Are you in CA?

This is pure comedy. And I'm usually one of the jovial and un-jaded ones around here.

Edit: I know I got those quotes wrong when I trimmed. Sorry, Zuck.

[bobloblaw0227]

If you dug hard enough you could probably find someone who would tell you that buying a bunch of lottery tickets is a sound financial investment. That doesn't mean that buying a bunch of lottery tickets is a sound financial investment.

I'm not sure you really understand what law school/legal practice is all about. It's not mock trial every day, usually you're nose deep in stuff that's way more esoteric and soul-numbingly dull than the material on the LSAT. If studying for tests ain't your thing, then don't go to law school.

Also, don't go to law school unless you can attend a strong regional for cheap and are prepared to live and work in that region long term, OR it's a tippy top school. Going to UofA and trying to get a job in CA is a really poor decision IMO. I know someone who did that, would not recommend. She found something eventually, but it took a long time, its low paying and not a practice area that she particularly enjoys. She basically just had to take what she could get because employers aren't particularly clamoring for UofA grads in CA. Also, she's attractive so that should have given her a solid bump, if she was a schmo she might still be looking for a job. Plus she has to carry around DAT DEBT. It's just one anecdote I know, but I'd imagine that a lot of people struggle like that when you look at the job placement statistics of schools like this.

Only way to win the lottery is to have the winning ticket and that's usually the result of playing. Comparatively there must be more ways to becoming a successful attorney, even if it's in Arizona. Will the odds be against me? I can't say. But betting against the odds usually have higher returns. Still betting on a successful career is much easier than successfully choosing your madness bracket. So, I get it, it's a risk, but what's the worst that can happen? I'm 70k in debt as a failed attorney, who ends up working as a CPA in the exciting world of audit? It's worth the risk IMO.

Studying is my thing! I love studying and learning and writing and talking and playing the guitar. I love life! Why shouldn't I? My dilemma was whether I should continue studying for the LSAT or begin studying to become an attorney at a regionally strong law school in AZ. Perhaps I need to warm up to the idea of working in AZ for some time, perhaps for the remainder of my life/career. I can adapt. I'm sure. Or, just maybe, we can conclude this conversation with an interview at the end of my first year in AZ...Are you in CA?

This is pure comedy. And I'm usually one of the jovial and un-jaded ones around here.

Edit: I know I got those quotes wrong when I trimmed. Sorry, Zuck.

I assume you are a 1L (from your username)? Just wondering. Lets take a look at Arizona's 2013 ABA employment data: 21/147 graduates were unemployed, seeking employment 9 months after graduation in 2013. Assuming this whole finding a job thing is strictly up to luck, as TLS likes to posit, that gives you an 85% chance of finding a job with a free legal education. How is that a bad decision? In terms of finding a job in CA, it may not be possible right out of LS, but with a few years of good work experience under your belt it would definitely be possible, especially if he's not gunning for BigLaw.

[Cellar-door]

Only way to win the lottery is to have the winning ticket and that's usually the result of playing. Comparatively there must be more ways to becoming a successful attorney, even if it's in Arizona. Will the odds be against me? I can't say. But betting against the odds usually have higher returns. Still betting on a successful career is much easier than successfully choosing your madness bracket. So, I get it, it's a risk, but what's the worst that can happen? I'm 70k in debt as a failed attorney, who ends up working as a CPA in the exciting world of audit? It's worth the risk IMO.

Studying is my thing! I love studying and learning and writing and talking and playing the guitar. I love life! Why shouldn't I? My dilemma was whether I should continue studying for the LSAT or begin studying to become an attorney at a regionally strong law school in AZ. Perhaps I need to warm up to the idea of working in AZ for some time, perhaps for the remainder of my life/career. I can adapt. I'm sure. Or, just maybe, we can conclude this conversation with an interview at the end of my first year in AZ...Are you in CA?

This is pure comedy. And I'm usually one of the jovial and un-jaded ones around here.

Edit: I know I got those quotes wrong when I trimmed. Sorry, Zuck.

I assume you are a 1L (from your username)? Just wondering. Lets take a look at Arizona's 2013 ABA employment data: 21/147 graduates were unemployed, seeking employment 9 months after graduation in 2013. Assuming this whole finding a job thing is strictly up to luck, as TLS likes to posit, that gives you an 85% chance of finding a job with a free legal education. How is that a bad decision? In terms of finding a job in CA, it may not be possible right out of LS, but with a few years of good work experience under your belt it would definitely be possible, especially if he's not gunning for BigLaw.

It's about 66% in actual legal jobs, most of those likely on the lowest paying end of the scale looking at breakdowns of job type.
17% unemployed.
3 years of life later the employment odds aren't much better than straight out of undergrad.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers
I know these are 2012 numbers, but until the 2013 numbers are official they're the ones to use.
Of course the OP is doing some fine trolling so it doesn't really matter.

[copingtrope]

I'd be borrowing about 80k for the whole three years.

that gives you an 85% chance of finding a job with a free legal education.

Going to AZ for free might not be such a bad idea, but 80k is definitely not free.

[CO2016YEAH]

I assume you are a 1L (from your username)? Just wondering. Lets take a look at Arizona's 2013 ABA employment data: 21/147 graduates were unemployed, seeking employment 9 months after graduation in 2013. Assuming this whole finding a job thing is strictly up to luck, as TLS likes to posit, that gives you an 85% chance of finding a job with a free legal education. How is that a bad decision? In terms of finding a job in CA, it may not be possible right out of LS, but with a few years of good work experience under your belt it would definitely be possible, especially if he's not gunning for BigLaw.

Yep. 1L here. I actually agree with you on the job market turn-around. Admits (and, thus, grads) continue to drop every year, legal hiring is beginning to improve. I try to keep it a secret. though. It's better if people don't think jumping into law school is a great idea. I do think it is a good time to go, though. At least if someone is resolved to be an attorney, and has a reasonably good idea of what that entails.

I also think the UofA idea doesn't sound bad. Especially if OP doesn't mind staying working in AZ for a while to try to lateral back. AZ has one of the better job markets right now. Jumping right back to CA at grad will likely be more difficult, though. But that depends on how much things improve between now and 2017.

There was still plenty of comedy in that post, though. Right down to the endearing suggestion to "conclude the discussion with an interview." There was someone about as giddy at my orientation, who was gone before our Contracts prof got to "consideration."

I just thing OP should pull the reins in for a second and scope this endeavor out a bit. The good news is, if the reaction to law school is what I suspect it might be, he/she can bail without having put out much expense. Best case scenario is everything turns out great!

Best of luck OP. Your enthusiasm probably just makes me smile, given that I've spent the bulk of the week working on a 5,000 word post-trial motion for LRW that seems better suited to 10,000 words, while keeping up with everything else. Law school is not a joke, and it's not playing court. But I wish you the best.

[rad lulz]

For example, I don't believe the number of students accepting biglaw jobs + fed clerkships changed for Vanderbilt from 2012-2013, however, the percentage jumped from ~38 to ~45 or something like that.

No it changed

2012 and 2013 classes were roughly the same size

[El Principe]

For example, I don't believe the number of students accepting biglaw jobs + fed clerkships changed for Vanderbilt from 2012-2013, however, the percentage jumped from ~38 to ~45 or something like that.

No it changed

2012 and 2013 classes were roughly the same size

Oh, hmmm. Interesting. Looks like I'll be taking another look at Vandy. So expensive tho, even with the scholarship.

[rad lulz]

For example, I don't believe the number of students accepting biglaw jobs + fed clerkships changed for Vanderbilt from 2012-2013, however, the percentage jumped from ~38 to ~45 or something like that.

No it changed

2012 and 2013 classes were roughly the same size

Oh, hmmm. Interesting. Looks like I'll be taking another look at Vandy. So expensive tho, even with the scholarship.

Remember class of 2013 when they applied it was the application peak

[bobloblaw0227]

I assume you are a 1L (from your username)? Just wondering. Lets take a look at Arizona's 2013 ABA employment data: 21/147 graduates were unemployed, seeking employment 9 months after graduation in 2013. Assuming this whole finding a job thing is strictly up to luck, as TLS likes to posit, that gives you an 85% chance of finding a job with a free legal education. How is that a bad decision? In terms of finding a job in CA, it may not be possible right out of LS, but with a few years of good work experience under your belt it would definitely be possible, especially if he's not gunning for BigLaw.

Yep. 1L here. I actually agree with you on the job market turn-around. Admits (and, thus, grads) continue to drop every year, legal hiring is beginning to improve. I try to keep it a secret. though. It's better if people don't think jumping into law school is a great idea. I do think it is a good time to go, though. At least if someone is resolved to be an attorney, and has a reasonably good idea of what that entails.

I also think the UofA idea doesn't sound bad. Especially if OP doesn't mind staying working in AZ for a while to try to lateral back. AZ has one of the better job markets right now. Jumping right back to CA at grad will likely be more difficult, though. But that depends on how much things improve between now and 2017.

There was still plenty of comedy in that post, though. Right down to the endearing suggestion to "conclude the discussion with an interview." There was someone about as giddy at my orientation, who was gone before our Contracts prof got to "consideration."

I just thing OP should pull the reins in for a second and scope this endeavor out a bit. The good news is, if the reaction to law school is what I suspect it might be, he/she can bail without having put out much expense. Best case scenario is everything turns out great!

Best of luck OP. Your enthusiasm probably just makes me smile, given that I've spent the bulk of the week working on a 5,000 word post-trial motion for LRW that seems better suited to 10,000 words, while keeping up with everything else. Law school is not a joke, and it's not playing court. But I wish you the best.

I agree with everything you said, and appreciate the honesty. I like to discourage people who are my year from going to law skool too so my competition will be less fierce. With that said, it gets a little frustrating reading the same, one-size-fits-all advice about how law skool is akin to a North Korean labor camp and you shouldn't go unless you have a $160,000 in the bag upon graduation. Many people are well-suited to the profession, and often those who make the most money in the law (usually plaintiffs' lawyers) never got big firm jobs. I will not discourage your proselytizing, and if someone is convinced not to go to law skool by a bunch of strangers on a message board, they probably shouldn't go. Just know there are plenty of great lawyers who did not go T14. I will be one of them, and OP might be too.

[rad lulz]

f

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Even if every grad got employed the cost of law school isn't really going down and a lot of the jobs that are available really blow in terms of $ and what the actual job is

This. People get caught up on FTLT legal and all that, but what's the real difference between shitty 45k mind numbing legal job w/ 150k debt vs shitty 45k mind numbing non legal job with 150k debt? The problem is a huge percentage of people attend law school with vague notions of ponies and end with up with shit on their face.