If I knew a smart, well-pedigreed kid who was considering LS Forum

[KeepitKind]

since i don't enjoy beating dead horses, i'll just add an ad hominem arg:

off the top of my head, ficatch is the most irksome, least interesting poster on this forum

[Curious1]

with corporates squeezing out the lawyers

Yeah I stopped reading there. Do you know how many CEOs have JDs? The better corporations are doing, the more lawyers they'll need. It's bad right now for lawyers BECAUSE it's bad for corporations.

[NiccoloA]

I would advise this student to attend law school only if he attains admission to one of the following:

Yale Law School
Harvard Law School
Stanford Law School

For the sake of argument, let's say "well-pedigreed" means (1) a 3.6-4.0 GPA in a liberal arts major from an Ivy or equivalent, or (2) a 3.4-3.6 in a hard science major from any college. Let's also assume this individual views all careers on an equal playing field (i.e., doesn't have a "passion" for anything, nor would he despise doing it), and is actually smart (scores a 165+ without prepping, or whatever that comes out to with prep).

Everyone talks about T13 or T14, but the fact is that these days law school simply doesn't stand up to other career choices available to kids who actually have desirable/marketable skills. The science kid should clearly try to shoot for med school (a vastly superior profession), even though he may have to go back to school to raise his GPA. The Ivy shit-major kid is in a less enviable position (I assume a 3.6 at Dartmouth doesn't get you i-banking?), but I would hope that he could find a nice job somewhere where he could make six figures within a few years... if not, then I'll adjust the hypo to maybe make kid (1) have a 3.8-4.0 from HYP.

Man... You really hate law school.

[bluesplitter]

with corporates squeezing out the lawyers

Yeah I stopped reading there. Do you know how many CEOs have JDs? The better corporations are doing, the more lawyers they'll need. It's bad right now for lawyers BECAUSE it's bad for corporations.

I hear ya, and many people can benefit from a JD and succeed in business. Thats for sure.

Not sure which economy your looking at, but corporations have been doing relatively well in this economy, well here in Texas anyway.

When i say that corporates are aiming to "squeez them out", I am primarily referreing to the new trend of having salaried "in house lawyers", where they work you to death for 65k a year. So, instead of hiring hot shot firms, they just have a full time employed band of lawyers to do their bidding.



And as far as CE0's goes, ----dude, becoming a CEO of bigtime corp is like winning the lottery.

You cant take "i gotta JD so iam goin to the top" to the bank.

I know you prolly haven't been in the "real world" yet. But you'll see.....

[Curious1]

And as far as CE0's goes, ----dude, becoming a CEO of bigtime corp is like winning the lottery.

Again, such poor reasoning...becoming CEO takes talent and skill and yes, a lot of luck, but in general cream rises to the top. No one said anything about JD = success. It takes a lot of hard work no matter what industry you're in if you want to succeed.

Anyway I haven't heard anything about in-house work--maybe someone who does this can enlighten me. Anecdotally I know a dude who left Cravath for a big Silicon Valley company and is really happy with the reduced hours and not-that reduced pay. Is that the general consensus? In-house = less money but way better hours? If so, then by how much?

Also, is there move to move up in in-house gigs? If so, would it only be in the legal department, or the more "general track"?

[Robespierre]

Let's also assume this individual views all careers on an equal playing field (i.e., doesn't have a "passion" for anything, nor would he despise doing it).

Law school takes three years out of the prime of your life and costs $200K+. Thus, if you're not passionate about becoming a lawyer, you don't belong in law school. So I agree with the OP, but he's really not saying much.

[vanwinkle]

I think its stupid not to be born into money. Fuckin tards everywhere.

I lol'd. This thread needed this.

[jim-green]

The rest I pretty much agree. Except I might say the T6 is ok...limiting it to ONLY HYS is a bit extreme, even for an uber-elitist like me. So...don't go to LS unless you can get into T6 and want to practice. Cheers!

Why T6 and not T5? Someone told me to go to the top 5 schools or not at all. This advice would mean T5.

[03121202698008]

Not sure if you're serious...

So absolutely everyone who wants to go to LS would be better off going to med school? Interest doesn't matter at all? I know that I would absolutely fail pre-med, let alone real med school...

Agreed. OP neglects to ask, "what if they hate medicine?" It truly isn't for everyone. Under his analysis, someone who would really enjoy being a lawyer, be admitted to the T14, and have a decent chance at a job they'd love shouldn't go.

[Curious1]

The rest I pretty much agree. Except I might say the T6 is ok...limiting it to ONLY HYS is a bit extreme, even for an uber-elitist like me. So...don't go to LS unless you can get into T6 and want to practice. Cheers!

Why T6 and not T5? Someone told me to go to the top 5 schools or not at all. This advice would mean T5.

I guess T5 is as good a cutoff as any, esp since the T6 school, NYU, had a large swathe shut out of OCI this year.

[bluesplitter]

If the revolution is ongoing, will you stay in law school knowing that the legal system could change, or would join your generation and respond to this biased system that works against the average person.

?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjqqtx57 ... r_embedded

[Kimberly]

Going the med school route, I speak from experience: (1)Science is pretty boring if you like to think big picture, which most lawyerly types do. (2) The first two years of med school are cool, the final two absolutely suck as you are what we like to call in medicine, "the scut puppy." This means that you will spend your time kissing as much *^# as possible, getting coffee for the attending, sucking up to the resident, and then trying to learn enough in the few precious moments you have to be able to pass your exams at the end of your rotation. 60-80 hour weeks in the hospital those last two years and then you have to study outside of the hospital so that you kinda look like you might know what you are talking about some day. And, by the way, NO SUMMERS OFF after year two of med school! Not glamorous. (3) Then you bust your absolute *^# getting into a residency program in a field that interests you (ie: makes a good living and has a not-so-kill-yourself-terrible lifestyle) and not in the middle of absolute nowhere. And, once you do, you have like a month to celebrate your successes before the real hell starts. It isn't just the long hours in residency... we all will work very hard at some point. Let's just put it this way, they had to pass resident labor laws to restrict work weeks to 80 hours and so restrict single shifts to 30 hours at once with a mandatory 10 hour break between shifts. And, these laws are broken ALL OF THE TIME. But, like I said, it isn't just the long hours and crap pay (40K annual) for between 3-8 years of your prime- it is the RISK and REALITY of illness. I was sick my entire residency. I was perpetually living in fear that I would get stuck with a needle and contract HIV from a patient. I was perpetually living in fear that the homeless patients coughing down the hall was going to give me TB. And, I was living in the reality that I got bronchitis 2-3 times per year, was hospitalized with meningitis, contracted MRSA, etc. Not glamorous. (4) Finally, you get to practice medicine with 200K in debt, still working 50-60hr weeks, and getting paid marginally well. So, unless you absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE taking care of sick people, I would choose another profession. It is certainly not a default to law! And, we (the medical field) don't need people who don't want to be there and aren't going to be happy serving people... it is depressing enough taking care of sick people day in and day out... we don't need someone who starts the game off already doing it for the wrong reasons! Go to LS!

[Curious1]

If the revolution is ongoing, will you stay in law school knowing that the legal system could change, or would join your generation and respond to this biased system that works against the average person.

?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjqqtx57 ... r_embedded

No. I'm trying to join the biased system.

[Curious1]

Going the med school route, I speak from experience: (1)Science is pretty boring if you like to think big picture, which most lawyerly types do. (2) The first two years of med school are cool, the final two absolutely suck as you are what we like to call in medicine, "the scut puppy." This means that you will spend your time kissing as much *^# as possible, getting coffee for the attending, sucking up to the resident, and then trying to learn enough in the few precious moments you have to be able to pass your exams at the end of your rotation. 60-80 hour weeks in the hospital those last two years and then you have to study outside of the hospital so that you kinda look like you might know what you are talking about some day. And, by the way, NO SUMMERS OFF after year two of med school! Not glamorous. (3) Then you bust your absolute *^# getting into a residency program in a field that interests you (ie: makes a good living and has a not-so-kill-yourself-terrible lifestyle) and not in the middle of absolute nowhere. And, once you do, you have like a month to celebrate your successes before the real hell starts. It isn't just the long hours in residency... we all will work very hard at some point. Let's just put it this way, they had to pass resident labor laws to restrict work weeks to 80 hours and so restrict single shifts to 30 hours at once with a mandatory 10 hour break between shifts. And, these laws are broken ALL OF THE TIME. But, like I said, it isn't just the long hours and crap pay (40K annual) for between 3-8 years of your prime- it is the RISK and REALITY of illness. I was sick my entire residency. I was perpetually living in fear that I would get stuck with a needle and contract HIV from a patient. I was perpetually living in fear that the homeless patients coughing down the hall was going to give me TB. And, I was living in the reality that I got bronchitis 2-3 times per year, was hospitalized with meningitis, contracted MRSA, etc. Not glamorous. (4) Finally, you get to practice medicine with 200K in debt, still working 50-60hr weeks, and getting paid marginally well. So, unless you absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE taking care of sick people, I would choose another profession. It is certainly not a default to law! And, we (the medical field) don't need people who don't want to be there and aren't going to be happy serving people... it is depressing enough taking care of sick people day in and day out... we don't need someone who starts the game off already doing it for the wrong reasons! Go to LS!

Thank you for this. People need to understand that nothing GUARANTEES a good job. If you want to succeed and make money you need to put in the hours, now matter what you're doing.

[flcath]

since i don't enjoy beating dead horses, i'll just add an ad hominem arg:

off the top of my head, ficatch is the most irksome, least interesting poster on this forum

I think I'm objectively decent, at worst.

Also over the past couple months like 99% of my posts have been anon.

[jim-green]

Why T6 and not T5? Someone told me to go to the top 5 schools or not at all. This advice would mean T5.

I guess T5 is as good a cutoff as any, esp since the T6 school, NYU, had a large swathe shut out of OCI this year.

Thanks, that helps. I was wondering if the ABA or law firms had a formal group called T6 or something that I did not know of. How come NYU had students shut out of OCI? Were they not allowed to apply for jobs at all, or do you mean the students with low GPAs who interviewed did not receive offers?

[Robespierre]

Why T6 and not T5? Someone told me to go to the top 5 schools or not at all. This advice would mean T5.

I guess T5 is as good a cutoff as any, esp since the T6 school, NYU, had a large swathe shut out of OCI this year.

Thanks, that helps. I was wondering if the ABA or law firms had a formal group called T6 or something that I did not know of. How come NYU had students shut out of OCI? Were they not allowed to apply for jobs at all, or do you mean the students with low GPAs who interviewed did not receive offers?

Yeah, I had the same question. A large swathe weren't allowed to participate? Or didn't get interviews? Or didn't get callbacks? Or didn't get jobs? What are you saying, Curious?

[jim-green]

Yeah, I had the same question. A large swathe weren't allowed to participate? Or didn't get interviews? Or didn't get callbacks? Or didn't get jobs? What are you saying, Curious?

I'm surprised this could happen because there were a few students from GULC who got Biglaw jobs. Since NYU=6 and GULC=14, shouldn't almost all NYU students get jobs before the 1st GULC student? It's not like you can't send a resume from New York to DC by e-mail today and travel to an interview.

[Blessedassurance]

You really think I don't know what I would enjoy? How about I suck at science?

The fact that you suck at science doesn't mean you'll enjoy being a lawyer. You may enjoy being a lawyer but the point is, you don't know that at this point.

[DoubleChecks]

You really think I don't know what I would enjoy? How about I suck at science?

The fact that you suck at science doesn't mean you'll enjoy being a lawyer. You may enjoy being a lawyer but the point is, you don't know that at this point.

Wait, I forget now (and can't be bothered to re-read parts of this thread) -- was his point ultimately that he would enjoy law or that he would enjoy law more than he would science?

[soj]

You really think I don't know what I would enjoy? How about I suck at science?

The fact that you suck at science doesn't mean you'll enjoy being a lawyer. You may enjoy being a lawyer but the point is, you don't know that at this point.

Wait, I forget now (and can't be bothered to re-read parts of this thread) -- was his point ultimately that he would enjoy law or that he would enjoy law more than he would science?

Don't you go being all logical now.

[Blessedassurance]

Yeah, I had the same question. A large swathe weren't allowed to participate? Or didn't get interviews? Or didn't get callbacks? Or didn't get jobs? What are you saying, Curious?

I'm surprised this could happen because there were a few students from GULC who got Biglaw jobs. Since NYU=6 and GULC=14, shouldn't almost all NYU students get jobs before the 1st GULC student? It's not like you can't send a resume from New York to DC by e-mail today and travel to an interview.

Are you Canadian, 21 or both?

[Blessedassurance]

Wait, I forget now (and can't be bothered to re-read parts of this thread) -- was his point ultimately that he would enjoy law or that he would enjoy law more than he would science?

You really think I don't know what I would enjoy? How about I suck at science?

[DoubleChecks]

Wait, I forget now (and can't be bothered to re-read parts of this thread) -- was his point ultimately that he would enjoy law or that he would enjoy law more than he would science?

You really think I don't know what I would enjoy? How about I suck at science?

But then...

How do you know you'll enjoy being a lawyer?

I know I would enjoy it more than chemistry or biology or economics. What other career options exist?

[romothesavior]

This thread fucking blows, from the stupid OP to the uninformed responses that follow.