My GPA is worse than I thought Forum

[reasonable_man]

Resonable_man,
I hear every argument you are making and I have weighed the pros and cons. I took a paralegal class as a change of career and realized, that I love studying the law and I want to be more than a paralegal. I also know when I get out of law school, I will not know shit and people 15 years younger than me will be telling me what to do. I dont want big law, I also do not want to be a partner. I have no desire to go through all that.

I finally found something in my life that I love and I am going to pursue it. I firmly believe that there is always room for one more good employee. If I work hard, network and play the game, somethign will happen. Maybe that is dreaming.

When I hear non-traditional grad or "older" student; this is where my mind goes first:

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/08/lawsuit- ... 7-million/

[kalvano]

At what age does this shift in thinking happen? Is it the same for a 35-year-old? 33?

Bump for 2nd-pagedness.

[reasonable_man]

At what age does this shift in thinking happen? Is it the same for a 35-year-old? 33?

Bump for 2nd-pagedness.

For me.. 33 at graduation would be the absolute oldest I'd want to deal with and that's even pushing it.. To me >30 is ideal.

[pieinthesky]

Do you infer the interviewees age from their undergrad graduation year and work experience or getting it from some concrete source?

[reasonable_man]

Do you infer the interviewees age from their undergrad graduation year and work experience or getting it from some concrete source?

You can usually tell by the gap in graduation from Ugrad to LS... I'm not saying its a hard and fast rule. But my preference is a "new" lawyer. Not someone that is coming to the profession after a long first career.

[spleenworship]

Do you infer the interviewees age from their undergrad graduation year and work experience or getting it from some concrete source?

You can usually tell by the gap in graduation from Ugrad to LS... I'm not saying its a hard and fast rule. But my preference is a "new" lawyer. Not someone that is coming to the profession after a long first career.

Glad I wasn't that interested in biglaw. Funny though, I would actually keep my head down and do good work simply because I know I am starting over in a totally unrelated field. Actually, part of the reason I went to law school was to do something totally different. Oh well, perhaps working in a related area of law to my previous profession is the way to go.

[Kandahar]

...as someone who has engaged in law firm hiring at both a small and mid-sized firm (and is in his very late 20s), I would not want anything to do with you. I believe that I’m not the only one that would feel that way (if others were willing to be more honest). I don’t want to teach an African American dog new tricks and I most certainly don’t want to deal with some black person (working under me), the believes he or she knows more because they have “been there and done that.” I may be closed minded (I already admit that), but the fact is, I doubt I’m the only one that feels that way...

Still credited?

To the original poster: yes, there are a lot of racists, misogynists, and ageists, like reasonable_man, out there, and some of them are in positions that allow them to impede your progress on the basis of their own prejudice and stereotypes and without any consideration of your personal qualities and qualifications. I just don't agree that not playing their game is the only way to win. If you want law, and you can do law school under the same conditions that someone of any age (be it 18, 22, 25, or 50) should do law school (get into a top school and graduate with little debt), then go for it. Potential barriers to success like ageism, just like racism, shouldn't dictate your choices.

[reasonable_man]

...as someone who has engaged in law firm hiring at both a small and mid-sized firm (and is in his very late 20s), I would not want anything to do with you. I believe that I’m not the only one that would feel that way (if others were willing to be more honest). I don’t want to teach an African American dog new tricks and I most certainly don’t want to deal with some black person (working under me), the believes he or she knows more because they have “been there and done that.” I may be closed minded (I already admit that), but the fact is, I doubt I’m the only one that feels that way...

Still credited?

To the original poster: yes, there are a lot of racists, misogynists, and ageists, like reasonable_man, out there, and some of them are in positions that allow them to impede your progress on the basis of their own prejudice and stereotypes and without any consideration of your personal qualities and qualifications. I just don't agree that not playing their game is the only way to win. If you want law, and you can do law school under the same conditions that someone of any age (be it 18, 22, 25, or 50) should do law school (get into a top school and graduate with little debt), then go for it. Potential barriers to success like ageism, just like racism, shouldn't dictate your choices.

Do not ever again misquote me and insert a racist comment into something that I said or imply that I am a racist to push your absurd agenda. There is a certain line that should not be crossed and superimposing a racist comment into a “quote” is beyond that line.

I have worked for and with people of all colors and sexes and have worked for partners of all age and gotten along just fine with each of them. I am bringing up a valid point for people to consider. And as a matter of fact, I’ve constructively answered several specific questions via PM through this thread that might not have otherwise come to the surface had I been more politically correct.

Do not ever do that again. I am the furthest thing from a racist. If you want to take a shot at me, come up with something witty and intelligent to say and take a shot. But don’t resort to using the race card when my statement did not even remotely imply a racist bent. Moreover, not quite sure how I also became a misogamist, but I’m pretty sure I’m not that either. As a matter of fact, the last person I hired happened to be a woman. She interviewed in a field of men with equal qualifications, but was simply the best candidate and thus was picked. I’m pretty sure she would agree that I am not a bigot.

I’d love to know your background in the legal field so that we can see where your expertise comes from… You’re clearly not a lawyer (and likely not even a 1L), because frankly, most Lawyers and would be lawyers would have enough sense to not make such an obnoxious statement. So please, enlighten us with your credentials.

[Patriot1208]

...as someone who has engaged in law firm hiring at both a small and mid-sized firm (and is in his very late 20s), I would not want anything to do with you. I believe that I’m not the only one that would feel that way (if others were willing to be more honest). I don’t want to teach an African American dog new tricks and I most certainly don’t want to deal with some black person (working under me), the believes he or she knows more because they have “been there and done that.” I may be closed minded (I already admit that), but the fact is, I doubt I’m the only one that feels that way...

Still credited?

To the original poster: yes, there are a lot of racists, misogynists, and ageists, like reasonable_man, out there, and some of them are in positions that allow them to impede your progress on the basis of their own prejudice and stereotypes and without any consideration of your personal qualities and qualifications. I just don't agree that not playing their game is the only way to win. If you want law, and you can do law school under the same conditions that someone of any age (be it 18, 22, 25, or 50) should do law school (get into a top school and graduate with little debt), then go for it. Potential barriers to success like ageism, just like racism, shouldn't dictate your choices.

LOL at equating "being worried about hiring a new associate that is 45" and racism.

[20121109]

...as someone who has engaged in law firm hiring at both a small and mid-sized firm (and is in his very late 20s), I would not want anything to do with you. I believe that I’m not the only one that would feel that way (if others were willing to be more honest). I don’t want to teach an African American dog new tricks and I most certainly don’t want to deal with some black person (working under me), the believes he or she knows more because they have “been there and done that.” I may be closed minded (I already admit that), but the fact is, I doubt I’m the only one that feels that way...

Still credited?

To the original poster: yes, there are a lot of racists, misogynists, and ageists, like reasonable_man, out there, and some of them are in positions that allow them to impede your progress on the basis of their own prejudice and stereotypes and without any consideration of your personal qualities and qualifications. I just don't agree that not playing their game is the only way to win. If you want law, and you can do law school under the same conditions that someone of any age (be it 18, 22, 25, or 50) should do law school (get into a top school and graduate with little debt), then go for it. Potential barriers to success like ageism, just like racism, shouldn't dictate your choices.

This is the absolute worst kind of trolling.

reasonable man was giving a legitimate opinion and you shit all over it. I have very little tolerance for bigots, but he is not one of them. Stop being ridiculous.

If you attempt to derail this conversation again or paint reasonable man in an unfair light, you will receive a ban. Please refrain from frustrating an otherwise helpful discussion.

[bandenjamin]

...as someone who has engaged in law firm hiring at both a small and mid-sized firm (and is in his very late 20s), I would not want anything to do with you. I believe that I’m not the only one that would feel that way (if others were willing to be more honest). I don’t want to teach an African American dog new tricks and I most certainly don’t want to deal with some black person (working under me), the believes he or she knows more because they have “been there and done that.” I may be closed minded (I already admit that), but the fact is, I doubt I’m the only one that feels that way...

Still credited?

To the original poster: yes, there are a lot of racists, misogynists, and ageists, like reasonable_man, out there, and some of them are in positions that allow them to impede your progress on the basis of their own prejudice and stereotypes and without any consideration of your personal qualities and qualifications. I just don't agree that not playing their game is the only way to win. If you want law, and you can do law school under the same conditions that someone of any age (be it 18, 22, 25, or 50) should do law school (get into a top school and graduate with little debt), then go for it. Potential barriers to success like ageism, just like racism, shouldn't dictate your choices.

This is the absolute worst kind of trolling.

reasonable man was giving a legitimate opinion and you shit all over it. I have very little tolerance for bigots, but he is not one of them. Stop being ridiculous.

If you attempt to derail this conversation again or paint reasonable man in an unfair light, you will receive a ban. Please refrain from frustrating an otherwise helpful discussion.

I'm confused, so discrimination against someone because of their age (uncontrolled characteristic) is somehow OK, while discrimination against another person because of Race (another uncontrolled characteristic) is not? I don't the initial changes were meant in anyway to actually imply that reasonable_man was a racist, more to make the point that if you replaced his comments regarding ageism with racism people would flip their lids about it (which did in fact happen).

So I'll ask, why is it OK to discriminate against a 40 year old man who wants to work in a big law firm? Is it then OK to discriminate against a woman because she might get pregnant? How about someone with a disability? I think this is the point that Kandahar was trying to get across.

[Grizz]

If you can't figure out why age is different than race, I can't help you.

[Patriot1208]

If you can't figure out why age is different than race, I can't help you.

Or why employers look at them differently....

[vanwinkle]

I'm confused, so discrimination against someone because of their age (uncontrolled characteristic) is somehow OK, while discrimination against another person because of Race (another uncontrolled characteristic) is not? I don't the initial changes were meant in anyway to actually imply that reasonable_man was a racist, more to make the point that if you replaced his comments regarding ageism with racism people would flip their lids about it (which did in fact happen).

So I'll ask, why is it OK to discriminate against a 40 year old man who wants to work in a big law firm? Is it then OK to discriminate against a woman because she might get pregnant? How about someone with a disability? I think this is the point that Kandahar was trying to get across.

It doesn't matter what you think of an issue, editing someone else's posts to make it look like they were being a racist is just plain not okay. In fact, this entire discussion should cease, and anyone who continues it will be banned. Period. Race has nothing to do with this thread at all, and race-baiting in the on-topic forums is prohibited. Assume that the same applies for off-topic segues into other inflammatory things like gender discrimination. If you derail a thread by making it about these things, you do so at your own risk.

Anyone who continues posting on this line of conversation will be banned.

Let's get back on-topic.

[FloridaGirl]

Do you infer the interviewees age from their undergrad graduation year and work experience or getting it from some concrete source?

You can usually tell by the gap in graduation from Ugrad to LS... I'm not saying its a hard and fast rule. But my preference is a "new" lawyer. Not someone that is coming to the profession after a long first career.

Does perceived age come in to play at all? Will a 35 year old who looks 30 be in a better position than a 30 year old who looks 40?

[pieinthesky]

Do you infer the interviewees age from their undergrad graduation year and work experience or getting it from some concrete source?

You can usually tell by the gap in graduation from Ugrad to LS... I'm not saying its a hard and fast rule. But my preference is a "new" lawyer. Not someone that is coming to the profession after a long first career.

Does perceived age come in to play at all? Will a 35 year old who looks 30 be in a better position than a 30 year old who looks 40?

I think if your resume makes it clear that you are 35 it won't matter if you look thirty, they'll know you are in your mid thirties.

For example, if you graduated from undergrad in 1998, worked from 1998-2008, then graduated from law school in 2011, they could just do the math and figure out you are around 35, even if you look 25.

But then again, people typically like a younger fresh face, so maybe it won't matter. All I can say is, make sure you have daily routine for taking care of your face and body. That's what I'm doing to protect myself from people's assumptions based on my age.

[KMaine]

RM makes some interesting points. I think alot of people see things his way. I can even understand it to a certain degree. I will say that I will be 37 when I graduate and will be starting a job at a big firm in Boston after I graduate. 2 other people in my class are my age and have Biglaw jobs lined up in NYC. I will say, I think I had a harder time during the hiring process than other people with my stats, but the firm I am with seems to like me. There was little awkwardness this summer, I think partially because I don't have the been there done that attitude and I am more than happy to take direction from people younger than myself. Also, I do think people valued my professionalism. I feel like I do have time to make partner (though I do wish I started 10 years earlier), and I certainly have enough time to repay my loans (especially since I will be starting work at 4 times my previous salary). Again, I do not wish to negate what RM says or to call him out. I think what he says is very true, and older students who think that attitude does not exist are fooling themselves.

[run26.2]

RM makes some interesting points. I think alot of people see things his way. I can even understand it to a certain degree. I will say that I will be 37 when I graduate and will be starting a job at a big firm in Boston after I graduate. 2 other people in my class are my age and have Biglaw jobs lined up in NYC. I will say, I think I had a harder time during the hiring process than other people with my stats, but the firm I am with seems to like me. There was little awkwardness this summer, I think partially because I don't have the been there done that attitude and I am more than happy to take direction from people younger than myself. Also, I do think people valued my professionalism. I feel like I do have time to make partner (though I do wish I started 10 years earlier), and I certainly have enough time to repay my loans (especially since I will be starting work at 4 times my previous salary). Again, I do not wish to negate what RM says or to call him out. I think what he says is very true, and older students who think that attitude does not exist are fooling themselves.

I agree with this sentiment and I will be around that age when I graduate. I think I had a harder time getting callbacks, but I also think I was able to do well during my summer because of my past experience. In other words, it might be harder to get your foot in the door, but you may also have an advantage once you're there.

The type of firm you are at is going to make a difference. My guess is that biglaw firms of the ilk that simply grind associates down for 3-4 years, and most of whom have little chance at making partner, will probably not give you much consideration. Firms with practice areas that tend to have people with advanced degrees are going to be more friendly to older students as they have experience with them coming in at an older age.

[reasonable_man]

RM makes some interesting points. I think alot of people see things his way. I can even understand it to a certain degree. I will say that I will be 37 when I graduate and will be starting a job at a big firm in Boston after I graduate. 2 other people in my class are my age and have Biglaw jobs lined up in NYC. I will say, I think I had a harder time during the hiring process than other people with my stats, but the firm I am with seems to like me. There was little awkwardness this summer, I think partially because I don't have the been there done that attitude and I am more than happy to take direction from people younger than myself. Also, I do think people valued my professionalism. I feel like I do have time to make partner (though I do wish I started 10 years earlier), and I certainly have enough time to repay my loans (especially since I will be starting work at 4 times my previous salary). Again, I do not wish to negate what RM says or to call him out. I think what he says is very true, and older students who think that attitude does not exist are fooling themselves.

I will never take offense to someone making a reasonable argument in opposition to my position. In fact, you could have called me an asshole while saying the same thing and I would still be cool with it... I do not think it's impossible to make partner, just harder.

I do give the older students credit for wanting to deal with the BS associated with being a young associate at mid-life. I wouldn't want to. It's hard enough dealing with it in your late 20s when you, in theory, have less on your plate, i.e. Kids, etc. My small firm has a great work life balance and when I think back to working at my mid-sized firm I do not miss the workload for even one second and I'm still relatively young (28 - starting my 3rd full year of practice). Best of luck to you guys. I hope to be way past that level of work by that point in my life.

[Kandahar]

...as someone who has engaged in law firm hiring at both a small and mid-sized firm (and is in his very late 20s), I would not want anything to do with you. I believe that I’m not the only one that would feel that way (if others were willing to be more honest). I don’t want to teach an African American dog new tricks and I most certainly don’t want to deal with some black person (working under me), the believes he or she knows more because they have “been there and done that.” I may be closed minded (I already admit that), but the fact is, I doubt I’m the only one that feels that way...

Still credited?

To the original poster: yes, there are a lot of racists, misogynists, and ageists, like reasonable_man, out there, and some of them are in positions that allow them to impede your progress on the basis of their own prejudice and stereotypes and without any consideration of your personal qualities and qualifications. I just don't agree that not playing their game is the only way to win. If you want law, and you can do law school under the same conditions that someone of any age (be it 18, 22, 25, or 50) should do law school (get into a top school and graduate with little debt), then go for it. Potential barriers to success like ageism, just like racism, shouldn't dictate your choices.

Do not ever again misquote me and insert a racist comment into something that I said or imply that I am a racist to push your absurd agenda. There is a certain line that should not be crossed and superimposing a racist comment into a “quote” is beyond that line.

I have worked for and with people of all colors and sexes and have worked for partners of all age and gotten along just fine with each of them. I am bringing up a valid point for people to consider. And as a matter of fact, I’ve constructively answered several specific questions via PM through this thread that might not have otherwise come to the surface had I been more politically correct.

Do not ever do that again. I am the furthest thing from a racist. If you want to take a shot at me, come up with something witty and intelligent to say and take a shot. But don’t resort to using the race card when my statement did not even remotely imply a racist bent. Moreover, not quite sure how I also became a misogamist, but I’m pretty sure I’m not that either. As a matter of fact, the last person I hired happened to be a woman. She interviewed in a field of men with equal qualifications, but was simply the best candidate and thus was picked. I’m pretty sure she would agree that I am not a bigot.

I’d love to know your background in the legal field so that we can see where your expertise comes from… You’re clearly not a lawyer (and likely not even a 1L), because frankly, most Lawyers and would be lawyers would have enough sense to not make such an obnoxious statement. So please, enlighten us with your credentials.

For some reason you think it's okay to be prejudiced against older people, but not other races. My quote change, made obvious by bold and italics, was to demonstrate how easy it is to change a less-noticed prejudiced comment into something more recognizable.

The fact that you responded so ferociously, and I got threatened by a ban by not one but two mods, proves my point. My point, which you seem to have missed, is that it is wrong to presuppose someone will be an inferior worker on the basis of general stereotypes. I think it is wrong to presuppose a minority will be an inferior worker just because of one's (NOT YOURS) past experiences with them. Same for women, homosexuals, 40 year olds, or any other group one may feel is a poor candidate SOLELY BASED ON STEREOTYPES AND NOT THE INDIVIDUAL.

For the mods, you, and whomever else:

I was calling reasonable_man an ageist, not a racist. Reread his posts, and mine, and they will all back this up.

[Kandahar]

I'm confused, so discrimination against someone because of their age (uncontrolled characteristic) is somehow OK, while discrimination against another person because of Race (another uncontrolled characteristic) is not? I don't the initial changes were meant in anyway to actually imply that reasonable_man was a racist, more to make the point that if you replaced his comments regarding ageism with racism people would flip their lids about it (which did in fact happen).

So I'll ask, why is it OK to discriminate against a 40 year old man who wants to work in a big law firm? Is it then OK to discriminate against a woman because she might get pregnant? How about someone with a disability? I think this is the point that Kandahar was trying to get across.

This exactly. Thank you for restoring my faith in the board.

[20121109]

Kandahar temp banned for ignoring mod directives. See below:

Anyone who continues posting on this line of conversation will be banned.

Reasonable man was simply stating that older law students are at a disadvantage when compared to younger students. The merits of such an issue are not up for discussion in this thread. Let me be clear: there is no censorship going on. If you feel strongly about it, make another thread and discuss ageism or whatever there. But please do not blindly ignore mod directives and derail a thread.

[KMaine]

RM makes some interesting points. I think alot of people see things his way. I can even understand it to a certain degree. I will say that I will be 37 when I graduate and will be starting a job at a big firm in Boston after I graduate. 2 other people in my class are my age and have Biglaw jobs lined up in NYC. I will say, I think I had a harder time during the hiring process than other people with my stats, but the firm I am with seems to like me. There was little awkwardness this summer, I think partially because I don't have the been there done that attitude and I am more than happy to take direction from people younger than myself. Also, I do think people valued my professionalism. I feel like I do have time to make partner (though I do wish I started 10 years earlier), and I certainly have enough time to repay my loans (especially since I will be starting work at 4 times my previous salary). Again, I do not wish to negate what RM says or to call him out. I think what he says is very true, and older students who think that attitude does not exist are fooling themselves.

I will never take offense to someone making a reasonable argument in opposition to my position. In fact, you could have called me an asshole while saying the same thing and I would still be cool with it... I do not think it's impossible to make partner, just harder.

I do give the older students credit for wanting to deal with the BS associated with being a young associate at mid-life. I wouldn't want to. It's hard enough dealing with it in your late 20s when you, in theory, have less on your plate, i.e. Kids, etc. My small firm has a great work life balance and when I think back to working at my mid-sized firm I do not miss the workload for even one second and I'm still relatively young (28 - starting my 3rd full year of practice). Best of luck to you guys. I hope to be way past that level of work by that point in my life.

Thanks, RM. Like I said, I wish I would have done this 10 years ago, but given the fact that I did not, I am pretty happy to have the opportunity. Actually, doing the kind of work associates do is more attractive to me now then spending any more years teaching.

[BarcaCrossesTheAlps]

Hehe.. I'm an "older" student, too.

I'll be 36 when I graduate. However, I look 24 at present (no sh1t) and I'll be going straight from undergrad to law school. So, hopefully I buck the obstacles. Also, I'll be going for a masters in labor that I hope to use as my primary employment chip in industry.


Anyway, interesting discussion going on here...

[3ThrowAway99]

Age discrimination is illegal (except where bonafide job requirement). I knew an attorney who graduated law school when he was probably late 40s and did fine.

TLS seems to have especially crappy posting lately--people being dicks (speaking more generally than accusing anyone in particular) etc. I guess it's usually like that, but it just seems bad to me recently. Yeah, age may be a factor to consider, but it is not something to 'reasonably' counsel someone to avoid a profession on account of IMO.