Official Foreign Applicants Thread 2011-2012 Forum

[sokomofo]

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[dean159]

In fee waiver news, I received a UVA waiver by email and managed to solicit waivers from Georgetown and Michigan.

Chicago however, informed me that they don't give out solicited waivers so if you haven't received an email from them it seems you're out of luck.

Does anyone know when Columbia usually starts sending out waivers?

[Nulli Secundus]

Hello, 170-176/Superior here, reapplying after withdrawing from waitlist at Harvard last year. Good luck to all other international applicants!

[karl.j.leitner]

Hi guys,

Seems like I'm getting into the race fairly late - have been considering applying stateside for the last few days. I have a solid 2.i from a good (or rather, reputable) English university, but noone I ring there seems to be able to tell me how I get that evaluated in terms of GPA. Did you all have to pay some separate company to evaluate it for you?

On another note, does anyone know which of the T14 are most renowned for human rights, public, and CLT law (or even if there are any outside the T14 that specialise in just those)?

[AntipodeanPhil]

Hi guys,

Seems like I'm getting into the race fairly late - have been considering applying stateside for the last few days. I have a solid 2.i from a good (or rather, reputable) university, but noone I ring there seems to be able to tell me how I get that evaluated in terms of GPA. Did you all have to pay some separate company to evaluate it for you?

You can't get a GPA (at least, not an official one that counts for U.S. law school applications). Foreign educated students aren't assigned GPAs by LSAC.

What happens instead is that you send your transcripts to LSAC, and they give your degree an evaluation - superior, above average, average, or below average. A solid 2.1 would most likely be "above average."

An above average might rule you out of HYS, but everywhere else would be open to you, with a good enough LSAT score. However, if you're planning to apply this cycle, you'd have to take the December LSAT - which means you should start studying now.

[karl.j.leitner]

What happens instead is that you send your transcripts to LSAC, and they give your degree an evaluation - superior, above average, average, or below average. A solid 2.1 would most likely be "above average."

Ah, I see - that clears a lot of stuff up. Thank you. My major worry is that I had a rocky path through uni which included a quite radical course change, and it was only in the last year that I pulled myself up to a good standard. In the UK it's not an issue, because only the final year exams count, but is the LSAC GPA assessment likely to take my marks in previous years into account?

However, if you're planning to apply this cycle, you'd have to take the December LSAT - which means you should start studying now.

Yep, on it. Will be able to more accurately assess where I should be aiming after a couple of practice tests. I'm not dead set on HYS (Columbia would be my first choice), but assuming I do get an above average rating, am I right in thinking a *very* high LSAT might put me back into contention for those three? Or should I just save the cash?

[AntipodeanPhil]

Is the LSAC GPA assessment likely to take my marks in previous years into account?

Nobody knows how LSAC determines their evaluations - they refuse to provide information. We have to try and make inferences from previous results. The consensus here seems to be that they will take all grades into account, although they also seem to care about the type of degree (2.1, et cetera).

I have heard second hand that LSAC has - in occasional cases - given 2.1s both superior and average evaluations, so nothing is guaranteed.

Assuming I do get an above average rating, am I right in thinking a *very* high LSAT might put me back into contention for those three? Or should I just save the cash?

The only true international student we know of (on this site or LSN) that got into Harvard last year was apparently a superior / 180. Harvard and Yale have both recently rejected internationals with above averages and very high LSAT scores (174+s).

IMHO, with a very high LSAT score you would have some very slim hope at Harvard, no hope at Yale, and a good shot at Columbia. Columbia seems to love high LSAT internationals, as do some of the lower T14. I don't know anything at Stanford (I'm not applying there).

Unfortunately, however, there isn't much data to go by here, since there aren't many high LSAT above average internationals on this forum and LSN, so all I'm doing is making guesses on limited anecdotal evidence and other posters' opinions.

EDIT: I had forgotten about this person - a superior / 177 accepted by H&C and rejected by Y&S.
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/pushingdaisies

[Curious1]

hey guys, another international applicant here. i went to undergrad in the US. 3.85/167. retaking in october, and hopefully i wont have a panic attack this time

Are we considered "international applicants" even if we went to undergrad in the US? My understanding was that we would be evaluated the same way as US applicants because we would use the same numbers (GPA and LSAT). Is it harder for international applicants, period, or just for international applicants with no GPAs?

[AntipodeanPhil]

Are we considered "international applicants" even if we went to undergrad in the US? My understanding was that we would be evaluated the same way as US applicants because we would use the same numbers (GPA and LSAT). Is it harder for international applicants, period, or just for international applicants with no GPAs?

If you have a US undergraduate degree, you will get an official LSAC GPA, and I'm sure that means you will be evaluated differently than a foreign-educated international. I would guess your international status would still be strongly relevant, though.

[Curious1]

[quote=I would guess your international status would still be strongly relevant, though.[/quote]

In a good or bad way?

[AntipodeanPhil]

I would guess your international status would still be strongly relevant, though.

In a good or bad way?

IMO, what all internationals have in their favor is that they bring diversity. The potential bad things are that: (a) because federal student loans are unavailable and private student loans will require U.S. cosigners, internationals are less likely to be able to pay the fees - and hence get a visa - which is a yield-protect concern; (b) internationals are less likely to be able to get employment in the U.S. after graduation, because of accents and other cultural factors, but also because they would need work authorization, which is expensive and a hassle.

[Curious1]

I would guess your international status would still be strongly relevant, though.

In a good or bad way?

IMO, what all internationals have in their favor is that they bring diversity. The potential bad things are that: (a) internationals are less likely to be able to pay the fees - and hence get a visa - which is a yield-protect concern; (b) internationals are less likely to be able to get employment in the U.S. after graduation, because of accents and other cultural factors, but also because they would need work authorization, which is expensive and a hassle.

Ah ok. Well I'm Canadian...so probably not much cultural/accent/money difference from the average American?

Thanks for the insight though! Good luck to you.

[karl.j.leitner]

Thanks Phil, that's a lot of help. My ultimate goal is to do well enough to get a judicial clerkship when I graduate - do you know of any foreign student on here who's managed to do something like that?

[mjitbswyd]

Hello! International applicant here. 174/Superior. Previous MVP LLM with strait As and recommendation letters from its seminar professors. Only applying for HYS this cycle, and will apply for other schools next year if not admitted.

[BKB]

LSAC is freaking me out....It has been four weeks since my transcript is received, and it is still not processed. Moreover, last week LSAC sent me a notice asking for Graduation Certificate and Degree Certificate. I'm still undergraduate....have not graduated yet.
Has anyone encountered similar problems?

[IamIn]

LSAC is freaking me out....It has been four weeks since my transcript is received, and it is still not processed. Moreover, last week LSAC sent me a notice asking for Graduation Certificate and Degree Certificate. I'm still undergraduate....have not graduated yet.
Has anyone encountered similar problems?

I would just call them and ask...

[AntipodeanPhil]

Thread bump!

I'm in at Georgetown, and under review at Harvard and Chicago. Anyone else with news?

[drdolittle]

Just out of idle curiosity, those of you who are not US permanent residents (who of course are eligible for gov loans & other benefits), how are you guys funding the insane cost of law school these days? Private loans? Loans/grants from your home country or school? Some of you have great stats and I'm sure could get full tuition scholarships from good schools, outside maybe the very top, but that still leaves living expenses, etc...I remember all this being a huge burden for international students (i.e. non-US perm residents) at my UG. Not to mention then trying to secure a visa upon graduation beyond the year-long practical training.

[AntipodeanPhil]

Just out of idle curiosity, those of you who are not US permanent residents (who of course are eligible for gov loans & other benefits), how are you guys funding the insane cost of law school these days? Private loans? Loans/grants from your home country or school? Some of you have great stats and I'm sure could get full tuition scholarships from good schools, outside maybe the very top, but that still leaves living expenses, etc...I remember all this being a huge burden for international students (i.e. non-US perm residents) at my UG. Not to mention then trying to secure a visa upon graduation beyond the year-long practical training.

I'm a permanent resident, so this isn't an issue for me, but from what I've gathered through asking other internationals about this, most from Western countries seem to either have money (i.e., come from wealthy backgrounds) or else have a way to get private loans - such as a US cosigner. I think some from non-Western countries can get government loans or grants. I also think some internationals apply without any of these and just hope that the money issue will work itself out. There are a small number of law schools that are willing to loan money to students directly, so that is a possibiliity - although probably a very slim one.

This is an especially difficult issue, of course, because to get a student visa one needs to prove to the US government upfront that one has the means to both pay tuition AND living costs. So even a full tuition scholarship wouldn't be enough.

[lovejopd]

Wow congrats

[IamIn]

Thread bump!

I'm in at Georgetown, and under review at Harvard and Chicago. Anyone else with news?

Congrats!

I have a question, Phil.

you mentioned the disadvantages that international students may face (no federal loans, hard to get a visa, etc). I am on F-1 visa right now but I will be going through adjustment of status procedure in the next few months (due to marriage) and I will be getting my permanent resident status soon ( I hope). Do you think I should write an addendum explaining this? I don't want them to discriminate against me because of my F-1 status. I will be applying in the next few days.

[AntipodeanPhil]

You mentioned the disadvantages that international students may face (no federal loans, hard to get a visa, etc). I am on F-1 visa right now but I will be going through adjustment of status procedure in the next few months (due to marriage) and I will be getting my permanent resident status soon ( I hope). Do you think I should write an addendum explaining this? I don't want them to discriminate against me because of my F-1 status. I will be applying in the next few days.

I would certainly write an addendum - just something short that explains this. They obviously care about immigration status, since they ask about it, and what matters to them is not your immigration status now, but while you're there. I have a suspicion that some law schools YP internationals with borderline numbers and no obvious way to pay. And beyond clarifying your immigration status, it would also help to explain (or emphasis) your ties to America - why you want to go to law school here, et cetera (although you probably cover that in your PS).

I went through that process a couple of years ago - it's a real hassle. I assume you know it takes a while for the forms to be processed - at least a few months.

[sfamor]

Hi everyone- I'm not an international student, but went to a undergraduate university in the US that used an evaluation system instead of grades. As a result I don't have an LSAC gpa either. I'm wondering if you guys have tried to use any of the law school admissions numbers and predictor sites and how you have put in your numbers without having a gpa? I've been plugging in 4.0 just to get it to work (since it won't if you leave the gpa box blank), but I know that's not really accurate. Anyone tried it or have any suggestions?

[IamIn]

You mentioned the disadvantages that international students may face (no federal loans, hard to get a visa, etc). I am on F-1 visa right now but I will be going through adjustment of status procedure in the next few months (due to marriage) and I will be getting my permanent resident status soon ( I hope). Do you think I should write an addendum explaining this? I don't want them to discriminate against me because of my F-1 status. I will be applying in the next few days.

I would certainly write an addendum - just something short that explains this. They obviously care about immigration status, since they ask about it, and what matters to them is not your immigration status now, but while you're there. I have a suspicion that some law schools YP internationals with borderline numbers and no obvious way to pay. And beyond clarifying your immigration status, it would also help to explain (or emphasis) your ties to America - why you want to go to law school here, et cetera (although you probably cover that in your PS).

I went through that process a couple of years ago - it's a real hassle. I assume you know it takes a while for the forms to be processed - at least a few months.

Thanks a lot for the advice! I will try to write an addendum. I would really appreciate if you could take a look at it (after I write it), you seem very knowledgeable in this area.
I have another question concerning this. In the applications schools ask about permanent city, permanent country, etc. Since I've been leaving at my current US address for the last three years and I am planning on staying here, should I put it as my permanent address or should I put my overseas address since I am not a permanent resident yet?

[AntipodeanPhil]

Thanks a lot for the advice! I will try to write an addendum. I would really appreciate if you could take a look at it (after I write it), you seem very knowledgeable in this area.
I have another question concerning this. In the applications schools ask about permanent city, permanent country, etc. Since I've been leaving at my current US address for the last three years and I am planning on staying here, should I put it as my permanent address or should I put my overseas address since I am not a permanent resident yet?

I'm not especially knowledgeable, but I would be happy to take a look.

As you probably know, one of the conditions for an F-1 visa is that you maintain a permanent residence in your home country, so I would list a foreign address as your permanent address until your AOS - I guess you don't want to state something that violates immigration law when applying to law schools, although I'm sure no law school would report you.