Michigan v Lesser T14 Forum

[mst]

Thanks for the feedback. I have looked at LRAP's but as far as I can tell, all the schools below CCN have roughly the same LRAP offerings (this is obviously a naive summary, and I do intend on doing a more indepth examination). I guess what is difficult is that each school is so different and has its fair share of pros and cons, that it's hard to pick between them all. I love UVA and Duke's campus and sunshine, but really like the atmosphere at Michigan. Like Cornell's size and placement options, while I feel like I might miss out on some PI options and clinics at Gtown and Penn. Argh. Work/travel committments prevent me from (re)visiting any of the campuses before deposit deadline so have to base it on the combination of gut instinct, research, and TLS indoctrination! Guess in the long run it doesn't matter much, I'll be 200K in debt and in ten years no one will care where I went anyways!

Let me do a favor for you and take Gtown out of the equation if you don't have a good amount of money to go there or a very good reason to be in DC for the next 3 years (UVA will give you better DC placement anyways even if that's the case). Honestly if the money was the same I would limit it to Mich, Virginia, and Penn. But if you want to include Duke & Cornell that's fine, not as bad as including Gtown.

Not visiting your future school isn't the greatest idea, but whatever lol...

[pialltheway]

Thanks for the feedback. I have looked at LRAP's but as far as I can tell, all the schools below CCN have roughly the same LRAP offerings (this is obviously a naive summary, and I do intend on doing a more indepth examination). I guess what is difficult is that each school is so different and has its fair share of pros and cons, that it's hard to pick between them all. I love UVA and Duke's campus and sunshine, but really like the atmosphere at Michigan. Like Cornell's size and placement options, while I feel like I might miss out on some PI options and clinics at Gtown and Penn. Argh. Work/travel committments prevent me from (re)visiting any of the campuses before deposit deadline so have to base it on the combination of gut instinct, research, and TLS indoctrination! Guess in the long run it doesn't matter much, I'll be 200K in debt and in ten years no one will care where I went anyways!

Let me do a favor for you and take Gtown out of the equation if you don't have a good amount of money to go there or a very good reason to be in DC for the next 3 years (UVA will give you better DC placement anyways even if that's the case). Honestly if the money was the same I would limit it to Mich, Virginia, and Penn. But if you want to include Duke & Cornell that's fine, not as bad as including Gtown.

Not visiting your future school isn't the greatest idea, but whatever lol...

Gtown only in the mix due to professional connections to the area/school. It's at the bottom of my list though, unless they up my scholly substantially.

With regard to visiting, I haven't had the chance to visit all of the schools in the mix, but have seen my top 3 (hence the re in revisiting). I agree, best way to get a feel for the school is to visit. That said, still having a hard time narrowing it down. To be honest, every school is has good and bad profs, you take the same classes everywhere, and you spend 90 percent of your time in the library. There are only so many factors to compare...

[michigan_man]

both outdated an incorrect. in fact, that chart is one of the most misleading things i have seen on TLS, and that is saying a lot.

Care to be more specific, chief?

Where do I begin? It doesn't begin to give an accurate view of each LRAP. First, Michigan's has been updated and this page hasn't (Michigan's LRAP now ties into IBR, but the program doesn't mandate that you go into public service, and the school helps students protect themselves against negative amortization). NYU, Chicago and Northwestern also protect against negative amortization. For Yale, you could be a bartender making under $60k and still get full coverage for law school loans and some undergrad loans. Harvard and Stanford do you use IBR, which can be a great thing since 120 payment loan forgiveness is all/nothing. Duke's program (if you read the fine print) has limited total funding and payments are reduced accordingly if too many people use the LRAP. Etc.

[Tanicius]

both outdated an incorrect. in fact, that chart is one of the most misleading things i have seen on TLS, and that is saying a lot.

Care to be more specific, chief?

Where do I begin? It doesn't begin to give an accurate view of each LRAP. First, Michigan's has been updated and this page hasn't (Michigan's LRAP now ties into IBR, but the program doesn't mandate that you go into public service, and the school helps students protect themselves against negative amortization). NYU, Chicago and Northwestern also protect against negative amortization. For Yale, you could be a bartender making under $60k and still get full coverage for law school loans and some undergrad loans. Harvard and Stanford do you use IBR, which can be a great thing since 120 payment loan forgiveness is all/nothing. Duke's program (if you read the fine print) has limited total funding and payments are reduced accordingly if too many people use the LRAP. Etc.

Yeah, I was very concerned about Duke's LRAP when I first heard about it. What's important to know, though, is that they have two levels of priority. Government employment in positions like public defense are first priority, so odds are someone in that kind of job would have plenty of reach into Duke's LRAP. Still, it's a sketchy gamble, IMO.

[DreamShake]

Time to end this silly debate. Michigan's LRAP has been updated this year and beats almost every IBR-based LRAP out there:
--LinkRemoved--
To the OP: Visit the campuses. You can tell a lot about the public interest community at a school by visiting. For this reason, I wouldn't even consider Duke, Cornell, Northwestern or Penn if you are serious about public interest. Your choice should be between Boalt, Michigan and maybe Virginia, but I can't speak to UVa's public interest community. Good luck.

For those sold on public interest, I'm pretty sure Boalt has the best IBR-based plan around. IIRC, it has a higher income floor ($65k) and ceiling ($100k) than any other LRAP, and student contribution is a flat 35% of income between those boundaries. Funding is pretty stable since it comes directly from the Professional Degree Fee that every student pays.

[Tanicius]

Time to end this silly debate. Michigan's LRAP has been updated this year and beats almost every IBR-based LRAP out there:
--LinkRemoved--
To the OP: Visit the campuses. You can tell a lot about the public interest community at a school by visiting. For this reason, I wouldn't even consider Duke, Cornell, Northwestern or Penn if you are serious about public interest. Your choice should be between Boalt, Michigan and maybe Virginia, but I can't speak to UVa's public interest community. Good luck.

For those sold on public interest, I'm pretty sure Boalt has the best IBR-based plan around. IIRC, it has a higher income floor ($65k) and ceiling ($100k) than any other LRAP, and student contribution is a flat 35% of income between those boundaries. Funding is pretty stable since it comes directly from the Professional Degree Fee that every student pays.

Whoa. I'd never heard of that before. How much is that fee per student each year?

[DreamShake]

Time to end this silly debate. Michigan's LRAP has been updated this year and beats almost every IBR-based LRAP out there:
--LinkRemoved--
To the OP: Visit the campuses. You can tell a lot about the public interest community at a school by visiting. For this reason, I wouldn't even consider Duke, Cornell, Northwestern or Penn if you are serious about public interest. Your choice should be between Boalt, Michigan and maybe Virginia, but I can't speak to UVa's public interest community. Good luck.

For those sold on public interest, I'm pretty sure Boalt has the best IBR-based plan around. IIRC, it has a higher income floor ($65k) and ceiling ($100k) than any other LRAP, and student contribution is a flat 35% of income between those boundaries. Funding is pretty stable since it comes directly from the Professional Degree Fee that every student pays.

Whoa. I'd never heard of that before. How much is that fee per student each year?

$31k/yr for residents, $26k/yr for non-residents--roughly 3/4 of tuition for residents and 1/2 for non-residents.
http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6943.htm

How will the reduced funding due to California's budget crisis affect LRAP?
Our LRAP is funded primarily by the Professional Degree Fee and is not dependent on state funding.

from http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6196.htm

[pixytree]

As an east coaster who spent 3 yrs in Cville, I have to say I disagree with the person that says an east coaster would be more at home in Ann Arbor. Charlottesville is smaller than Ann Arbor, but you're close enough to DC that you can hop on the train or bus and be in the city in 2-3 hours. Detroit is close to AA but just isn't the same.

That being said, after visiting Ann Arbor, I really liked it. I, like you, applied to UMich on whim (but knowing they had a strong program I was interested in) and decided to give them a closer look after receiving some $. It turned out to be a great visit. A lot of people go gaga over the campus, but that's not what sold me. Dean Z really is an asset to the school-she really takes the time to get to know the students. Can;t say the same for Dean Carminck (sp) though others may have better insight. What really sold me is the student culture-everyone seemed reallly nice and they went out of their way to make us feel welcome. I haven't decided where I'm going yet, but I really liked my visit to UMich.

Feel free to PM if you want to know more.

[TheStrand]

Thanks for the feedback. I have looked at LRAP's but as far as I can tell, all the schools below CCN have roughly the same LRAP offerings (this is obviously a naive summary, and I do intend on doing a more indepth examination). I guess what is difficult is that each school is so different and has its fair share of pros and cons, that it's hard to pick between them all. I love UVA and Duke's campus and sunshine, but really like the atmosphere at Michigan. Like Cornell's size and placement options, while I feel like I might miss out on some PI options and clinics at Gtown and Penn. Argh. Work/travel committments prevent me from (re)visiting any of the campuses before deposit deadline so have to base it on the combination of gut instinct, research, and TLS indoctrination! Guess in the long run it doesn't matter much, I'll be 200K in debt and in ten years no one will care where I went anyways!

Just FYI, when you look into Michigan's LRAP if you just google it will come up with the old system. The new one is here:
--LinkRemoved--
Make less than GS-11 and Mich makes your entire IBR payment. Higher than GS-11 up to 150% of GS-11 (around 88k this year) and they will pay on a sliding scale. As michigan_man stated earlier, they also protect against negative amortization. And you don't have to work in the public sector. Gov work, non-profit, or small private firm it doesn't matter. There is also no overall time commitment. So you can do LRAP for as long as you want, doesn't have to be 10 years, and you can do it starting up to five years after grad (so, start out in BigLaw, then switch to something lower paying and still qualify).

As to why people love the school, I just want to reiterate that the students are really truly amazing. Alumni network is a huge huge deal (did you go to an alumni reception? The one in NY had like four alums to every admit, and they spanned from like the 1980s to the present). The profs are also really cool. If there is a particular one in a field you would want to learn more about, Dean Z can hook you up. That all being said though, there's no wrong choice really. Good luck with your decision!

[Marionberry]

If you're dead set on PI, GULC is generally a better choice than a lot of lower T14s, unless you're interested in a very specific PI field for which that may not be the case.