Where should my application floor be? Forum

[005618502]

Biglaw does not pay 200k a year after 3 years on average. IDK where you got those numbers from.

please tell me what the pay for 4th year associates are at many of the big firms from your standpoint and post some evidence of why you think so.

Heres mine:

http://www.infirmation.com/shared/searc ... New%20York

Though i have seen it from other places before

[northwood]

dont go into lawthinking its a sure fire way to get rich.....

some people may end up very rich, most wont be making 200k after 3 or 4 years

thinking you will be one of the very few is a foolish mistake

[pereira6]

OP is going to be in at many T14 which do place well in biglaw and does pay that kind of money as long as he gets good grades and can interview okay

While I'm wholly confident in my ability to perform well in law school, it seems like so many grades in law school are partly based on luck.

Also, in the T14, I'm not going to law school with ANY idiots. They all deserve to be there, and will work hard. There won't be a healthy amount of willing bottom feeders.

Just a general concern of mine that I could work my ass off, do well qualitatively and still suck quantitatively relative to the rest of the class. Which makes me hesitant to take on a whole lotta debt

[northwood]

OP is going to be in at many T14 which do place well in biglaw and does pay that kind of money as long as he gets good grades and can interview okay

While I'm wholly confident in my ability to perform well in law school, it seems like so many grades in law school are partly based on luck.

Also, in the T14, I'm not going to law school with ANY idiots. They all deserve to be there, and will work hard. There won't be a healthy amount of willing bottom feeders.

Just a general concern of mine that I could work my ass off, do well qualitatively and still suck quantitatively relative to the rest of the class. Which makes me hesitant to take on a whole lotta debt

this is very true. Its refreshing to see that someone on this forum isnt going to assume that they are going to be in the top 1/3 of their class. Just make sure you understand the stipulations for scholarship offers. Some require you to stay in the top 1/3, have a certain gpa. If you dont make it, then you lose the sholarship and have to pay full tuition.

[Bildungsroman]

Also, in the T14, I'm not going to law school with ANY idiots.

While I wouldn't go into law school expecting to be the smartest person around, you'd be surprised at the fair number of morons who make it into the T14.

[whymeohgodno]

Also, in the T14, I'm not going to law school with ANY idiots.

While I wouldn't go into law school expecting to be the smartest person around, you'd be surprised at the fair number of morons who make it into the T14.

Are there many morons at Yale?

[northwood]

theres morons everywhere

[pereira6]

While I wouldn't go into law school expecting to be the smartest person around, you'd be surprised at the fair number of morons who make it into the T14.

While you may be an experienced TLS poster, until you go to law school yourself, you can't expect me to consider this as a credited answer.

[adt231]

Waste of time.

Can I get a +1 from somebody on this?

It depends. How set is your dream of being in the legal arena of the corporate sports world? If that is all you want to do with your JD, then yup it's a waste of time (unless your dad is already doing something in that field).

If you could see yourself doing something else with your JD then: nope, it's not a waste of time. I know you are worried about not being top of your class if you go to top 14, but let's say you finish 40th percentile. Imagine that you went to BC on a partial ride instead to save $100,000 in loans. You really think you're going to be top of your class at BC if you're only 40th percentile at a top14 school? Yea, the students at BC aren't as good, on the whole, as many students in the higher ranked schools; but, it's a mistake to think that this sort of school will be anything more than very marginally easier. You're going to be competing against kids with 166s and 167s at BC instead of 169s and 170s (does anyone on here really think that this means these students will be much easier to rank higher than?!). So if you're worried about not doing well in law school at a top 14, then do not apply anywhere in the top 100; and it follows if that you're worried about not doing well in a top 100, then do not apply to law school.

Thus, the moral is if you are truly worried that you are going to come out of law school and not be competitive at the sorts of jobs that you want, go wherever you can get a FULL ride (whether that is BC, Florida, Oregon, Cardozo, etc.) because if you don't land your target job(s) or if you hate law school, the worst case scenario is that you switch careers versus switching careers and owing 200k in debt. And if you are confident in your abilities to do well and you're sure that corporate law is what you want to do, then yes, do not even consider anything below, I'd say, USC.

[pereira6]

It depends. How set is your dream of being in the legal arena of the corporate sports world? If that is all you want to do with your JD, then yup it's a waste of time (unless your dad is already doing something in that field).

If you could see yourself doing something else with your JD then: nope, it's not a waste of time. I know you are worried about not being top of your class if you go to top 14, but let's say you finish 40th percentile. Imagine that you went to BC on a partial ride instead to save $100,000 in loans. You really think you're going to be top of your class at BC if you're only 40th percentile at a top14 school? Yea, the students at BC aren't as good, on the whole, as many students in the higher ranked schools; but, it's a mistake to think that this sort of school will be anything more than very marginally easier. You're going to be competing against kids with 166s and 167s at BC instead of 169s and 170s (does anyone on here really think that this means these students will be much easier to rank higher than?!). So if you're worried about not doing well in law school at a top 14, then do not apply anywhere in the top 100; and it follows if that you're worried about not doing well in a top 100, then do not apply to law school.

Thus, the moral is if you are truly worried that you are going to come out of law school and not be competitive at the sorts of jobs that you want, go wherever you can get a FULL ride (whether that is BC, Florida, Oregon, Cardozo, etc.) because if you don't land your target job(s) or if you hate law school, the worst case scenario is that you switch careers versus switching careers and owing 200k in debt. And if you are confident in your abilities to do well and you're sure that corporate law is what you want to do, then yes, do not even consider anything below, I'd say, USC.

Thank you for the really thoughtful answer, it means a lot. I don't mean to come across as nervous or not confident, I just like to seriously consider the worst case scenarios.

The sports legal arena is my dream. I'm aware of the difficulty of entering into such a market, so while it is a dream, I can DEFINITELY see myself working somewhere else (out of a necessity that I would not dislike).

Here's a different spin on the question: 200k of debt=serious trouble with a 60k job. What about 100k of debt? I like to think its "trouble, but manageable". I mean, thousands of (really stupid) kids get 100k of debt with a UG degree. While I'm certainly aware of the saturated legal market right now, certainly a law degree is worth more for future value than a UG degree. Someone said to me a while back that "a 60k job=youre fucked either way".

Thoughts?

[pereira6]

I hope I'm not too late to be considered "reviving a dead thread", but I thought I'd update my final decision.

Decided to apply to a few lower-ranked schools. 12 bucks an app, capped my number at 20, decided what the hell? The extra 60 dollars I spend could be a 50,000$ investment if certain situations arise.

Applied to Illinois, Indiana, Tulane, Connecticut, Maryland, and Alabama as safety-maybe-great-scholarship schools. If my T14ish cycle goes awful then these are schools I can see myself ending up at just in case. I can't take a year off to try again next year so I thought this was a good decision to add more schools like this.

Thanks for everyone's help! Good luck!

[BrownBears09]

I mean, thousands of (really stupid) kids get 100k of debt with a UG degree.

This statement shows your lack of world experience. You're saying that kids who get 100k of debt for an Ivy BA/BS are "really stupid?"

I may not be one of the kids with heavy UG debt, but it strikes me as arrogant.

[pereira6]

This statement shows your lack of world experience. You're saying that kids who get 100k of debt for an Ivy BA/BS are "really stupid?"

I may not be one of the kids with heavy UG debt, but it strikes me as arrogant.

There are always certain circumstances in which paying the kitchen sink for an UG is worth it, and an Ivy league education is certainly one of those situations that is right for most people.

Also, if the UG degree is intended as a student's terminal degree, then it may be worth it (this could be because the terminal degree is good enough to start a lucrative career in; engineering is often considered one of those programs).

It can't be ignored that the job market for UG degree-only individuals is not very lucrative. And that could very well be the case even when the economy returns to a better state. The demand for people to have an advanced degree of some sort is high. On those lines, it's probably a better idea to not pay a ton of money when a return to school in the near future--sometimes immediately--is expected. I say probably because you indeed indicated a situation that escapes my opinion.

It is my personal opinion that if one is to pursue an advanced degree of some sort, and does not have a legitimate reason to attend some 30k plus private institution over the state school system (the definition of a legitimate reason is subjective, but I'm thinking of fairly obvious situations--like Ivy league schools or having rich parents), then it is optimal to reduce the loans for UG. 100k of debt plus maybe 150-200k for law school? Not looking good I'd say. Attending a good public school and leaving with 0 debt is allowing me to consider schools right now at sticker price that I would not be able to if I had private school debt.

I do apologize for using the term "really stupid", even if I disagree with those decisions. Don't mean to come across as an ass haha...I don't mean to offend those who did! But I am curious to see if there is anyone who paid a lot for an UG degree who is currently in, looking for, or graduated from a law school who would choose a cheaper UG if given another chance.

[bigkahuna2020]

It can't be ignored that the job market for UG degree-only individuals is not very lucrative.

It is certainly far more than 100k more lucrative over the lifetime of a degree. Even PoliSci/Business/Sociology degrees