Why do people do this?! Forum

[jrobby6]

Unfortunately when my parents think law school, they think prestigious. They also have this preconceived notion that whatever law school you attend WILL get you any job around the country.

[Ragged]

You assume that at least some people going to T4 and T3 schools have the grades/scores (or the ability to get the scores) that put them in contention for T14 seats.

I think what he means is that those people would try alot harder and then possible achieve those grades/stats, which would make it more competitive for the rest of us. Except of course those people are not going to be likely to apply to LS the same cycle as the person who gave them the advice, so in that sense yea.... logic fail.

[hellokitty]

Unfortunately when my parents think law school, they think prestigious. They also have this preconceived notion that whatever law school you attend WILL get you any job around the country.

This is exactly the way my family sees things. None of them went to law school. Everyone is either in healthcare or academia. They think it doesn't matter where I get my degree, so it has been kind of a struggle to convince them that I need to take a year off to try for better schools.

[Ragged]

I hate meeting other ppl in my area who plan on going to law school.. They always get really excited at first and then they start talking about the LSAT. They always ask me what I got on the LSAT and get real quiet and awkward when I respond. The worst is when they are seniors who know Im a junior (most people assume I havent taken the LSAT yet) and try to give me advice and tips and tell me how impossible the LSAT is.

And the fact that you're black should make it even more awkward, assuming those people are white.

[motiontodismiss]

Just like in every other industry, we stand to benefit more by them not thinking.

I'm going through the 2011/2012 cycle, so I stand to benefit more by them not thinking.

[A'nold]

It's a little bit of what most of the posters have said, but there's something else too. People aren't usually like us where they go and find out everything about law school. They see the law degree, not the school, and assume a law degree is itself prestigeous and look at average starting salary tables and say, "80k starting isn't so bad" and then go to law school without having ever done anymore research. They think that the career services department will help them get one of these "average 80k" jobs and that (I've heard this probably over 100 times since I started at my own t3 school) "as long as you pass the bar, you're set." At the McGeorge ASD I went to last year, someone asked about grades and one of the upperclassmen actually told him that grades don't matter and that all that matters is passing the bar. I'm sure there were quite a few people like me who actually took that comment like a punch to the gut and were actually offended that someone would say something so retarded, but I bet about half of the people nodded their heads in a knowing sort of way.
When you have a > 3.0 GPA and can only muster > a 150 on the LSAT and an "accredited school" offers you admission and you really want to "be an attorney" (whatever that means) you will jump at the opportunity, especially after you get that beautiful shiny packet that looks all prestigeous. "Hey, I'm going to law school!" Like the poster said above, we care b/c of compassion. However, there is often no talking these people out of it. They want to go to law school and only Cooley or Florida Coastal or some similar kind of school gives them that opportunity. Plus, didn't you know that "your degree doesn't matter, it's what you do after you graduate that matters" and also that "they'll own you in court one day?"

[Nom Sawyer]

I hate meeting other ppl in my area who plan on going to law school.. They always get really excited at first and then they start talking about the LSAT. They always ask me what I got on the LSAT and get real quiet and awkward when I respond. The worst is when they are seniors who know Im a junior (most people assume I havent taken the LSAT yet) and try to give me advice and tips and tell me how impossible the LSAT is.

And the fact that you're black should make it even more awkward, assuming those people are white.

lol what does race have to do with it? I'm pretty sure mentioning a 99 percentile score will make most LSAT takers feel awkward (unless ur on TLS)..

[A'nold]

Unfortunately when my parents think law school, they think prestigious. They also have this preconceived notion that whatever law school you attend WILL get you any job around the country.

This is exactly the way my family sees things. None of them went to law school. Everyone is either in healthcare or academia. They think it doesn't matter where I get my degree, so it has been kind of a struggle to convince them that I need to take a year off to try for better schools.

Right. My father-in-law is in business and in the business world you can succeed by "being the best, regardless of what degree you have" and "your degree won't matter once you get out in the real world." I love the sentiment, but it's really freaking hard to convince people in other fields that law is different and prestige matters.

[rundoxierun]

I hate meeting other ppl in my area who plan on going to law school.. They always get really excited at first and then they start talking about the LSAT. They always ask me what I got on the LSAT and get real quiet and awkward when I respond. The worst is when they are seniors who know Im a junior (most people assume I havent taken the LSAT yet) and try to give me advice and tips and tell me how impossible the LSAT is.

And the fact that you're black should make it even more awkward, assuming those people are white.

lol what does race have to do with it? I'm pretty sure mentioning a 99 percentile score will make most LSAT takers feel awkward (unless ur on TLS)..

Haha yea.. I dont think most of them make the racial distinction connection. Most of these people are not the types who even know what an URM is. They are more of the type that tells you their dream is to go to Harvard law so they are spending their senior year retaking all their low level classes to raise their gpa.. and then they ask you what type of questions are on the LSAT.

[Always Credited]

why do people care what other people do when it doesnt affect them?

I assume he cared because it was his girlfriend - which lends some suspicion to the idea that he only knew she was going to law school because she one day, offhandedly mentioned attending Cooley.

Flameski, IMO. Or he literally gives his gurrrrrrl zero TLC. Which could be explained by the possible Cooley attendance.




Hmm.

RC Fail.

Lots of fails ITT

The only RC fail there was your own. Don't throw stones in glass houses.

[Na_Swatch]

why do people care what other people do when it doesnt affect them?

I assume he cared because it was his girlfriend - which lends some suspicion to the idea that he only knew she was going to law school because she one day, offhandedly mentioned attending Cooley.

Flameski, IMO. Or he literally gives his gurrrrrrl zero TLC. Which could be explained by the possible Cooley attendance.




Hmm.

RC Fail.

Lots of fails ITT

The only RC fail there was your own. Don't throw stones in glass houses.

double the RC Fail.... massive, massive RC Fail

[rando]

RC Fail.

Lots of fails ITT

The only RC fail there was your own. Don't throw stones in glass houses.

Did you really just call me out on your own blatant failure to read?

[A'nold]

Double, no TRIPLE wammy super mega infinity times infinity warp RC FAILZ!

[junelsat]

Unfortunately when my parents think law school, they think prestigious. They also have this preconceived notion that whatever law school you attend WILL get you any job around the country.

This is exactly the way my family sees things. None of them went to law school. Everyone is either in healthcare or academia. They think it doesn't matter where I get my degree, so it has been kind of a struggle to convince them that I need to take a year off to try for better schools.

The only polite way to describe this notion is "misinformed" but honestly its just ignorant.

[prezidentv8]

I hate meeting other ppl in my area who plan on going to law school.. They always get really excited at first and then they start talking about the LSAT. They always ask me what I got on the LSAT and get real quiet and awkward when I respond. The worst is when they are seniors who know Im a junior (most people assume I havent taken the LSAT yet) and try to give me advice and tips and tell me how impossible the LSAT is.

And the fact that you're black should make it even more awkward, assuming those people are white.

--ImageRemoved--

[PDaddy]

I hate meeting other ppl in my area who plan on going to law school.. They always get really excited at first and then they start talking about the LSAT. They always ask me what I got on the LSAT and get real quiet and awkward when I respond. The worst is when they are seniors who know Im a junior (most people assume I havent taken the LSAT yet) and try to give me advice and tips and tell me how impossible the LSAT is.

And the fact that you're black should make it even more awkward, assuming those people are white.

So, you're one of only about 20 black people in the entire world to score above 170 this year, meaning you're a freak. Do the awkward looks surprize you? If they're white, they either think the world as they know it has been turned upside down, or they don't believe you. It's probably (mostly) the latter. lol.

I was over at my girlfriend's house last week and her friend said she is going to law school like myself. She is very excited. I asked her where she is going and she said Cooley... at sticker. Her LSAT was a 146 and she did not wanna retake and I didnt ask about the GPA but I assume it was fairly low. I asked (being as delicate as possible of course) if she was comfortable paying so much for Cooley and she said "Sure, I'll make that back in a year or two after I graduate." The sad thing is, I think this is happening all over the US, students are taking T4's at sticker or close to it because they want a law degree from anywhere just to say they have one. I, unlike many people on TLS, feel that paying sticker for a fairly prestigious law school (at least within its market) is fine, but not for Cooley or some other T4 trash. Do people not have common sense? How in the world do these people pay off their loans? Mathematically, without any connections, I dont see them ever paying off their loans, so how does their life go after graduation?

I'm just curious, did she tell you about her finances? Your other points are well-taken. She could probably get into a TTT or even a low T2 with a little work. If she's poor, she should play the secioeconimically disadvantaged angle and go to one of the better TTT like Suffolk, Wayne State, or even Southwestern.

Unfortunately when my parents think law school, they think prestigious. They also have this preconceived notion that whatever law school you attend WILL get you any job around the country.

This is exactly the way my family sees things. None of them went to law school. Everyone is either in healthcare or academia. They think it doesn't matter where I get my degree, so it has been kind of a struggle to convince them that I need to take a year off to try for better schools.

I can see both sides of the argument in your case, kitty. Didn't you get into 'Bama? That's a reputable school (albeit a regional one) that can get you good jobs. I think your parents have an argument on this one. If you just don't want to stay in 'Bama, I think we can all fully appreciate that, although I wonder why you applied there. It's really the fault of the employers. There should be some way of giving graduates from every school a chance to compete for the top jobs after graduation.

If we truly believe in meritocracy, there's something really retarded about the employment of a standardized exam - taken before law school - impacting one's professsional future to such a great extent, especially when that test does not measure/predict the skills required to be a lawyer. Let everyone battle for it. The cream always rises to the top, so if these Harvard folks are really the best, they shouldn't mind a little post law school competition for jobs. Nobody is "entitled" to anything just because they have a degree.

This mess exists because law firms recruiters are lazy and expect the schools to do their "sorting" for them. That's just my take on it.

[hellokitty]

I can see both sides of the argument in your case, kitty. Didn't you get into 'Bama? That's a reputable school (albeit a regional one) that can get you good jobs. I think your parents have an argument on this one. If you just don't want to stay in 'Bama, I think we can all fully appreciate that, although I wonder why you applied there. It's really the fault of the employers. There should be some way of giving graduates from every school a chance to compete for the top jobs after graduation.

If we truly believe in meritocracy, there's something really retarded about the employment of a standardized exam - taken before law school - impacting one's professsional future to such a great extent, especially when that test does not measure/predict the skills required to be a lawyer. Let everyone battle for it. The cream always rises to the top, so if these Harvard folks are really the best, they shouldn't mind a little post law school competition for jobs. Nobody is "entitled" to anything just because they have a degree.

This mess exists because law firms recruiters are lazy and expect the schools to do their "sorting" for them. That's just my take on it.

At the time I applied, I wasn't 100% sure what I wanted to do and I just wanted one school close to home in case I decided to stay for some unforeseen reason. But no I don't wanna stay in this region and thus I'm going to retry for t14 in the fall.

[honestabe84]

Unfortunately when my parents think law school, they think prestigious. They also have this preconceived notion that whatever law school you attend WILL get you any job around the country.

This is exactly the way my family sees things. None of them went to law school. Everyone is either in healthcare or academia. They think it doesn't matter where I get my degree, so it has been kind of a struggle to convince them that I need to take a year off to try for better schools.

Right. My father-in-law is in business and in the business world you can succeed by "being the best, regardless of what degree you have" and "your degree won't matter once you get out in the real world." I love the sentiment, but it's really freaking hard to convince people in other fields that law is different and prestige matters.

This is hilarious. My family is the exact same way. They all have this warped sense of reality where everyone with a law degree is going to be successful. They also think that a law degree is so "versatile" and that if you're a good lawyer, where you got your degree from is meaningless. I've been trying to explain how things really are, but they usually just dismiss me and think that I'm just being pessimistic.

It gets so annoying sometimes explaining this to people. Whenever I say anything to anyone about being concerned about the market and that I'm having second thoughts about law school, people always say "why? You could be a lawyer." For some reason people think JD=MD. They also think that all lawyers are doing fascinating work and making truckloads of cash.

To be honest, 3-4 years ago I didn't know anything about the profession, and I figured that as long as I got a degree I would be successful. I blame the media for perpetuating this myth. It's always drummed into everyone that lawyers are all smart and rich. Basically they look at all 200 ABA law school grads the way we look at grads from Yale that were in the top 5% of their class and were on law review.

[Janus]

I think that sometimes people don't have a choice (and sometimes they do and are ill-informed). I'm going to a T3 (as of this year's rankings) with a 164 LSAT and 3.7 GPA. I took the LSAT one time and didn't bring a watch. Funny, those proctors positioned the clock exactly where I couldn't see it. So, I thought about taking the LSAT again because I was sure that the lack of a clock cost me at least 5 points, and I also thought that I could have been more serious about my studying. But, in the end, it didn't matter. (And it was more a battle with my ego than anything else.) Because as of right now, I am geographically bound with my only choices being the T3 (previously T2 and will probably make it back there soon) and an unranked provisionally accredited school. So, I'll be attending the T3/2. That being said, I'm not attending the T3/2 at sticker, and I wouldn't have attended the T4/unranked at sticker.

People who graduate from the T3 at the top of the class get good or even great jobs, even in this job market. So I'll have my work cut out for me. It is possible, and it is not a blank DOOM.

I asked my very well paid friend at a very well-known firm in a major market if I should be concerned about the slip of the T2 to the T3. She responded, "umm....not really." I think the reply from most people on TLS would be, sure, it doesn't matter, because there's no difference between a bottom T2 and a (top) T3 for job prospects, implying that the job prospects are grim at best. My friend who is at that really great firm with a really nice salary went to a T2 (towards the bottom) and got that job the T14's want.

So, there are those of us out there who knowingly choose other things over a T14 and are no worse for it. Maybe even better off because we have less debt coming out. Life is not always as clear cut as TLS makes it out to be.

I've been wanting to say something to this affect on TLS for some time. Since you asked the question, I thought I would give it a shot.

[Na_Swatch]

I think that sometimes people don't have a choice (and sometimes they do and are ill-informed). I'm going to a T3 (as of this year's rankings) with a 164 LSAT and 3.7 GPA. I took the LSAT one time and didn't bring a watch. Funny, those proctors positioned the clock exactly where I couldn't see it. So, I thought about taking the LSAT again because I was sure that the lack of a clock cost me at least 5 points, and I also thought that I could have been more serious about my studying. But, in the end, it didn't matter. (And it was more a battle with my ego than anything else.) Because as of right now, I am geographically bound with my only choices being the T3 (previously T2 and will probably make it back there soon) and an unranked provisionally accredited school. So, I'll be attending the T3/2. That being said, I'm not attending the T3/2 at sticker, and I wouldn't have attended the T4/unranked at sticker.

People who graduate from the T3 at the top of the class get good or even great jobs, even in this job market. So I'll have my work cut out for me. It is possible, and it is not a blank DOOM.

I asked my very well paid friend at a very well-known firm in a major market if I should be concerned about the slip of the T2 to the T3. She responded, "umm....not really." I think the reply from most people on TLS would be, sure, it doesn't matter, because there's no difference between a bottom T2 and a (top) T3 for job prospects, implying that the job prospects are grim at best. My friend who is at that really great firm with a really nice salary went to a T2 (towards the bottom) and got that job the T14's want.

So, there are those of us out there who knowingly choose other things over a T14 and are no worse for it. Maybe even better off because we have less debt coming out. Life is not always as clear cut as TLS makes it out to be.

I've been wanting to say something to this affect on TLS for some time. Since you asked the question, I thought I would give it a shot.

The difference is, your friend was before ITE, we are ITE.

That said, T2 and T3 aren't that different and it sounds like you like your region. Best of luck!

[JTX]

why do people care what other people do when it doesnt affect them?

I assume he cared because it was his girlfriend - which lends some suspicion to the idea that he only knew she was going to law school because she one day, offhandedly mentioned attending Cooley.

Flameski, IMO. Or he literally gives his gurrrrrrl zero TLC. Which could be explained by the possible Cooley attendance.




Hmm.

RC Fail.

Lots of fails ITT

The only RC fail there was your own. Don't throw stones in glass houses.

best post ever.

[danquayle]

why do people care what other people do when it doesnt affect them?

General oversaturation. Even at Cooley, the top 1-5% can be competitive for a good job.