I need some advice... UCLA (60k) or NYU (sticker)? Forum

[270910]

Here's the thing: Much below top 25% of the class at UCLA and you start to have basically 0 realistic chance at a big firm job, and will have to struggle for other forms of legla employment. At NYU you can probably have a fighting chance at a big firm job down to median, and if the economy picks up probably even below.

Spending 3 years in Cali with less debt is going to mean nothing if you graduate without the ability to get a job that will help you pay down that loan.

NYU places extremely well in California. Fewer students head there because it tends to attract those gunning for NYC big law.

The difference between these schools is such that there's a very real chance given identical performance at each school, one sets you up for lucrative employment + exit options and the other puts you in a real bind for finding a legal job that you enjoy. Obviously if you're last in each class you'll be hosed. At the top of NYU's class your clerkship and elite firm options are even more broad than at UCLA.

I think the extra debt is worth it for somebody who doesn't know what they want to do. Almost all cool legal jobs require high performance + pedigree, not just big law.

[tar2009]

wow. thank you all SO MUCH!!! this has been extremely helpful. for your info, I don't know where I want to end up in CA. I am interested in both northern and southern california, and I probably wont be able to make a final decision until a few things develop in my life.

when i spoke to a UCLA 3L, he described to me how a future students may be screwed by the fact that so many firms have been defferring their new employers and eventually will have to simply NOT hire one year to make up for it. does this ring a bell to anyone? will that screwed class potentially be us??

[KG_CalGuy]

wow. thank you all SO MUCH!!! this has been extremely helpful. for your info, I don't know where I want to end up in CA. I am interested in both northern and southern california, and I probably wont be able to make a final decision until a few things develop in my life.

when i spoke to a UCLA 3L, he described to me how a future students may be screwed by the fact that so many firms have been defferring their new employers and eventually will have to simply NOT hire one year to make up for it. does this ring a bell to anyone? will that screwed class potentially be us??

I think we'll be fine, it's this years 3L class that is really screwed. The problem was that last year's class had a lot of their jobs deferred and when the time came for them to actually stop working at the firm, many firms rescinded their offer. So the problem is that firms are ready to start hiring more (than last year that is), but the market is saturated between those who got screwed last year and those that are graduating this year.

[kittenmittons]

wow. thank you all SO MUCH!!! this has been extremely helpful. for your info, I don't know where I want to end up in CA. I am interested in both northern and southern california, and I probably wont be able to make a final decision until a few things develop in my life.

when i spoke to a UCLA 3L, he described to me how a future students may be screwed by the fact that so many firms have been defferring their new employers and eventually will have to simply NOT hire one year to make up for it. does this ring a bell to anyone? will that screwed class potentially be us??

I think we'll be fine, it's this years 3L class that is really screwed. The problem was that last year's class had a lot of their jobs deferred and when the time came for them to actually stop working at the firm, many firms rescinded their offer. So the problem is that firms are ready to start hiring more (than last year that is), but the market is saturated between those who got screwed last year and those that are graduating this year.

I agree. There won't be a backlog of people from previous years choking off jobs for c/o 2013. Those people just lost the time lottery and got screwed

[tar2009]

yeah... thats what im hoping for.

so for those of you going for big law, is that a career goal of yours youre planning on sticking with? Or, will you try for that a few years to pay off loans/makes some $, and then move on to bigger (smaller actually), better (at least less time consuming) things?

[270910]

C/O 2011 and 2010 got it hard. The jury is still out on 2012. There is no obvious reason why 2013 would be screwed, but that doesn't mean you're exactly 'safe' either - who knows what trends will occur in hiring and/or the economy at large.

[tru]

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[tru]

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[motiontodismiss]

Just remember that UCLA's tuition is slated to rise 30-something % through 2012. In 2012, Boalt instate will probably cost more than NYU at sticker. UCLA will probably follow this trend and will probably wipe out any difference in tuition. Ridiculous. CoL difference is probably negligible.

If there's even a shadow of a shadow of a doubt about wanting to practice in SoCal (with Stanford and Boalt, I don't see SF firms going down to UCLA to recruit), go with NYU. Btw, LA is just as expensive if not more expensive than New York and you have to have a car.

No, it's not. and you don't know shit.

You're right, it's not. LA is more expensive.

[tru]

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[Big Dog]

People from SF are pretty snooty about their superiority to SoCal, with specific respect to Los Angeles. The only thing that really impresses/intimidates them is New York City

Umm, concur with the first part, but the second is not even close. No one in California even cares about New York City and the east, much less be "intimidated" by it. Love to visit, sure. But when you are from The City......

[motiontodismiss]

People from SF are pretty snooty about their superiority to SoCal, with specific respect to Los Angeles. The only thing that really impresses/intimidates them is New York City

Umm, concur with the first part, but the second is not even close. No one in California even cares about New York City and the east, much less be "intimidated" by it. Love to visit, sure. But when you are from The City......

SFers are pretty snobbish. Actually most of California. They think they're the only state that has beaches and sun

It's still ringing in my ears..."I could NEVER live on the east coast because of the weather". Of all the reasons they could think of not to go outside their state, they pick WEATHER? Really? I couldn't believe they were serious.

[motiontodismiss]

Just remember that UCLA's tuition is slated to rise 30-something % through 2012. In 2012, Boalt instate will probably cost more than NYU at sticker. UCLA will probably follow this trend and will probably wipe out any difference in tuition. Ridiculous. CoL difference is probably negligible.

If there's even a shadow of a shadow of a doubt about wanting to practice in SoCal (with Stanford and Boalt, I don't see SF firms going down to UCLA to recruit), go with NYU. Btw, LA is just as expensive if not more expensive than New York and you have to have a car.

No, it's not. and you don't know shit.

You're right, it's not. LA is more expensive. And sue me.

edited.

All right. edited on my end too

[KG_CalGuy]

They think they're the only state that has beaches and sun.

Not true. We think we're the only state that MATTERS that has beaches and sun

[JWicker10]

I think that going to NYU is a much better choice. Apart from career prospects and potential earnings, the fact of the matter is that NYU is a substantially better and more prestigious law school where you WILL get a better education. This is an education that will then serve you for the rest of your life. Moreover, where ever you end up will sit on your resume and be with you forever--and to me (someone who is also paying for law school on my own as well) that is a huge factor. Maybe it's the wrong way to go about thinking about it, but I think it's something to certainly consider.

Making this decision shouldn't be just a career-minded choice, especially when you're unsure in what area you want to practice. It's also a life decision.

[fortissimo]

Do you really think that students from Berkeley and Stanford, two of the best schools in the country, tend to fight over, and saturate, the tiny Bay Area? Of course not.

Over 75% of Berkeley grads and 50% of Stanford grads stay in California...The Bay Area market is also very saturated right now. I think NYU is TCR here, but SF isn't exactly a large market to begin with and plenty of Berkeley and Stanford grads stay in state. Other top 14-ers also bid on SF at OCI and end up in an already saturated market. After that, there's not much left for UCLA and other non t-14 grads.

[clintonius]

People from SF are pretty snooty about their superiority to SoCal, with specific respect to Los Angeles. The only thing that really impresses/intimidates them is New York City

Umm, concur with the first part, but the second is not even close. No one in California even cares about New York City and the east, much less be "intimidated" by it. Love to visit, sure. But when you are from The City......

...you realize that "The City" refers to New York, right?

[smov_operator]

Do you really think that students from Berkeley and Stanford, two of the best schools in the country, tend to fight over, and saturate, the tiny Bay Area? Of course not.

Over 75% of Berkeley grads and 50% of Stanford grads stay in California...The Bay Area market is also very saturated right now. I think NYU is TCR here, but SF isn't exactly a large market to begin with and plenty of Berkeley and Stanford grads stay in state. Other top 14-ers also bid on SF at OCI and end up in an already saturated market. After that, there's not much left for UCLA and other non t-14 grads.

Respectfully disagree with the bold bit. The margin for error is greater at NYU, but if OP does well at UCLA, he should no problem finding top employment in Cali.

[270910]

Apart from career prospects and potential earnings, the fact of the matter is that NYU is a substantially better and more prestigious law school where you WILL get a better education. This is an education that will then serve you for the rest of your life. Moreover, where ever you end up will sit on your resume and be with you forever--and to me (someone who is also paying for law school on my own as well) that is a huge factor. Maybe it's the wrong way to go about thinking about it, but I think it's something to certainly consider.

woooooooooooooooooooooooooah there. I take it you're a 0L? Nothing wrong with that, but we should clear some things up:

1) The education you receive in any law school in the country, at least within the top 100, is going to be pretty similar. The two major features will be 1) coming from EXTREMELY accomplished and brilliant professors, and 2) being utterly useless. Law school is much more about sorting and competition than education. There's learning, no doubt about that, but it's largely self driven - and even to the extent that it is not, instructional quality varies minimally over law schools. If you ever want to play a fun game, check the faculty profiles at various law schools. They're all extremely accomplished, the competition for faculty slots is just absurdly stiff and so the best of the best often - if not frequently - wind up at places like UCLA. And, as I noted, the actual education you get in law school - at least as a result of the professor's 'teaching' - will have a tenuous at best relationship to practice.

2) The 'JD name forever' thing is pretty over-rated. Your school and your grades will, in most cases, conspire to open or shut a ton of doors from you out of law school. From that point on it takes a huge back seat to other considerations. The difference between UCLA and NYU right out of law school, in my opinion, does warrant taking NYU even with $$$. But you might be putting too much stock in the 'resume for the rest of your life' factor as well.

I'm a 1L who has loved the hell out of law school, so please don't take this as a jaded or troll-based rant. You'll understand once you've been in law school for a while... it's just... different from regular school.

[RVP11]

I am almost positive that I want to end up working in CA after law school

Almost is hard to quantify. If positive, UCLA. If not, NYU.

If OP wants BigLaw, NYU is TCR no matter where OP wants it. There is an absolute gulf in BigLaw placement between these two schools (one that could well be widening ITE) and that gulf extends even to the LA market.

[fortissimo]

People from SF are pretty snooty about their superiority to SoCal, with specific respect to Los Angeles. The only thing that really impresses/intimidates them is New York City

Umm, concur with the first part, but the second is not even close. No one in California even cares about New York City and the east, much less be "intimidated" by it. Love to visit, sure. But when you are from The City......

SFers are pretty snobbish. Actually most of California. They think they're the only state that has beaches and sun

It's still ringing in my ears..."I could NEVER live on the east coast because of the weather". Of all the reasons they could think of not to go outside their state, they pick WEATHER? Really? I couldn't believe they were serious.

People from So Cal hate Nor Cal and think it's too cold. I know way too many So-Cal-ers who complain about the weather in the Bay.
People from Nor Cal tend to think think So Cal is too hot, celeb-obsessed, and many hate LA.
I have met a fair number of people from both who admire NYC though, so the comment seems fair. It's seen as "the cool city" by a lot of them. (I was born and raised partly in SF.) A girl I know born and raised in SF told me she wants to work in New York City because "there is nothing to do in SF," which is a fair comment if you take into account that NYC is about a billion times bigger with 10 times more people.

[fortissimo]

Do you really think that students from Berkeley and Stanford, two of the best schools in the country, tend to fight over, and saturate, the tiny Bay Area? Of course not.

Over 75% of Berkeley grads and 50% of Stanford grads stay in California...The Bay Area market is also very saturated right now. I think NYU is TCR here, but SF isn't exactly a large market to begin with and plenty of Berkeley and Stanford grads stay in state. Other top 14-ers also bid on SF at OCI and end up in an already saturated market. After that, there's not much left for UCLA and other non t-14 grads.

That's in California, in addition to a source, do you have any specifics on the Bay Area? It seems more likely that most grads head down to L.A. which is our largest legal market.

http://www.law.stanford.edu/school/facts/#graduates
http://www.law.berkeley.edu/careers.htm

It says 42% of Stanford grads work in CA. I can't find Boalt's stats on its website right now but I know at the very least, that over 70% of Berkeley grads stay in California. Maybe you can find the link yourself on that site. Not sure how many go to LA, but you have to keep in mind that SF is still much smaller than LA and I am not lying when I say SF is an over-saturated market. It's considerably easier landing a big law job in NYC right now than SF. The market is just way too tiny, and if you are not working in IP (since a lot of IP boutiques are in the Bay), then it's much harder for you to land a normal big law job in SF than NYC with just a typical liberal arts degree. All I know is that if I am not IP and if I do not have top 1/3 grades at a top 14, there is no way in hell I'd bid on SF as my first market at OCI.

[RVP11]

Not sure how many go to LA, but you have to keep in mind that SF is still much smaller than LA and I am not lying when I say SF is an over-saturated market.

This is only kinda true.

SF might be a smaller market than LA (it's a pretty small margin). But SF + Palo Alto + Menlo Park >>> LA. And even if you add in OC to LA, the Bay/SV still wins.

[fortissimo]

Not sure how many go to LA, but you have to keep in mind that SF is still much smaller than LA and I am not lying when I say SF is an over-saturated market.

This is only kinda true.

SF might be a smaller market than LA. But SF + Palo Alto + Menlo Park >>> LA.

Don't know. I think for biglaw, LA > Bay Area.

I just know that I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to bid on biglaw in the Bay with lower than top 1/3 grades at a top 14 (outside of HYS) ite and no hard science background.

[RVP11]

Not sure how many go to LA, but you have to keep in mind that SF is still much smaller than LA and I am not lying when I say SF is an over-saturated market.

This is only kinda true.

SF might be a smaller market than LA. But SF + Palo Alto + Menlo Park >>> LA.

Don't know. I think for biglaw, LA > Bay Area.

I just know that I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to bid on biglaw in the Bay with lower than top 1/3 grades at a top 14 (outside of HYS) ite and no hard science background.

Oh if you subtract IP practices I think LA might actually have more BigLaw jobs. Top 1/3 is probably a decent guideline for CA in general, but I wouldn't be surprised if CCN gets some more wiggle room.