Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU Forum

[BenJ]

If you pick CLS, I will hunt you down and destroy you for being the most petty, small-minded, warped individual I have ever encountered.

It would be a catastrophically deficient life choice that would forever brand you as unfit for interaction with the rational humans that walk the earth.

Mother of God... this poll has to be an April Fools thing. It can't have gotten this bad.

It can't

Somebody hold me?

He's not totally, absolutely insane. It's largely self-selection on the part of the student bodies, but Columbia does have the best biglaw placement in the country (yes, better than HYS).

I would take NYU. But I don't think you can go wrong either way.

[legalnoeagle]

If you pick CLS, I will hunt you down and destroy you for being the most petty, small-minded, warped individual I have ever encountered.

It would be a catastrophically deficient life choice that would forever brand you as unfit for interaction with the rational humans that walk the earth.

Mother of God... this poll has to be an April Fools thing. It can't have gotten this bad.

It can't

Somebody hold me?

He's not totally, absolutely insane. It's largely self-selection on the part of the student bodies, but Colombia does have the best biglaw placement in the country (yes, better than HYS).

I would take NYU. But I don't think you can go wrong either way.

And this.

[soullesswonder]

If you pick CLS, I will hunt you down and destroy you for being the most petty, small-minded, warped individual I have ever encountered.

It would be a catastrophically deficient life choice that would forever brand you as unfit for interaction with the rational humans that walk the earth.

Mother of God... this poll has to be an April Fools thing. It can't have gotten this bad.

It can't

Somebody hold me?

He's not totally, absolutely insane. It's largely self-selection on the part of the student bodies, but Colombia does have the best biglaw placement in the country (yes, better than HYS).

I would take NYU. But I don't think you can go wrong either way.

If Columbia's placement advantage is largely due to self-selection, then you can't call it the "best". All you can say is that they put the highest percentage of grads into biglaw.

[AngryAvocado]

25k isn't worth giving up your dream school, in my opinion. Also, there are legitimate placement differences between the schools, even for NYC biglaw*. I'm not sure why people keep insisting they're identical, but I suppose that's another example of the lishi echo chamber at work.

*See:
http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html
http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml
etc.

Echo chamber is right. These are the same damn reports that show up in every debate.

As I've pointed out before, the Leiter ranking excludes Weil, a known feeder-firm for NYU graduates. And rankings from three or four years ago don't seem that relevant right now. You want to compare bonus numbers from then, too?

Right. ~20% differences between the schools in V100 and V50 summer placement is irrelevant because it's 3 years old. Also, a cursory search on Weil website turned up twice as many hits for Columbia as NYU. It doesn't allow searches by schools, so it's not perfect, but I doubt NYU dominates CLS at any of the top firms and I wouldn't be surprised if CLS has the upper hand even at supposed "NYU feeders."

The fact of the matter is that NYU is a great school, and you'll have a similar (but not identical) shot at general biglaw at either school, but CLS has the definitive upper hand when it comes to the most selective places. I'm still waiting for you (or anyone) to post some numbers that suggests otherwise...or you can just keep spouting righteous indignation and SELF SELECTION (omgz) !!!

[legalnoeagle]

25k isn't worth giving up your dream school, in my opinion. Also, there are legitimate placement differences between the schools, even for NYC biglaw*. I'm not sure why people keep insisting they're identical, but I suppose that's another example of the lishi echo chamber at work.

*See:
http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html
http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml
etc.

Echo chamber is right. These are the same damn reports that show up in every debate.

As I've pointed out before, the Leiter ranking excludes Weil, a known feeder-firm for NYU graduates. And rankings from three or four years ago don't seem that relevant right now. You want to compare bonus numbers from then, too?

Right. ~20% differences between the schools in V100 and V50 summer placement is irrelevant because it's 3 years old. Also, a cursory search on Weil website turned up twice as many hits for Colombia as NYU. It doesn't allow searches by schools, so it's not perfect, but I doubt NYU dominates CLS at any of the top firms and I wouldn't be surprised if CLS has the upper hand even at supposed "NYU feeders."

The fact of the matter is that NYU is a great school, and you'll have a similar (but not identical) shot at general biglaw at either school, but CLS has the definitive upper hand when it comes to the most selective places. I'm still waiting for you (or anyone) to post some numbers that suggests otherwise...or you can just keep spouting righteous indignation and SELF SELECTION (omgz) !!!

--LinkRemoved--
Do the search for yourself, include NYU and NYU School of Law, search for CLS, and tell me what you come back with. Fool.

The summer associate survey is even more pointless to debunk, because we have no idea how many NYU and CLS students actually sought out these positions. If you're willing to place a value of $25000 on it, then go nuts. I'll take my advice from actual practitioners of the law any day.

One more for you.
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443757861

[jitsrenzo]

This thread has been very informative for me. Thanks!

[AngryAvocado]

25k isn't worth giving up your dream school, in my opinion. Also, there are legitimate placement differences between the schools, even for NYC biglaw*. I'm not sure why people keep insisting they're identical, but I suppose that's another example of the lishi echo chamber at work.

*See:
http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html
http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml
etc.

Echo chamber is right. These are the same damn reports that show up in every debate.

As I've pointed out before, the Leiter ranking excludes Weil, a known feeder-firm for NYU graduates. And rankings from three or four years ago don't seem that relevant right now. You want to compare bonus numbers from then, too?

Right. ~20% differences between the schools in V100 and V50 summer placement is irrelevant because it's 3 years old. Also, a cursory search on Weil website turned up twice as many hits for Colombia as NYU. It doesn't allow searches by schools, so it's not perfect, but I doubt NYU dominates CLS at any of the top firms and I wouldn't be surprised if CLS has the upper hand even at supposed "NYU feeders."

The fact of the matter is that NYU is a great school, and you'll have a similar (but not identical) shot at general biglaw at either school, but CLS has the definitive upper hand when it comes to the most selective places. I'm still waiting for you (or anyone) to post some numbers that suggests otherwise...or you can just keep spouting righteous indignation and SELF SELECTION (omgz) !!!

--LinkRemoved--
Do the search for yourself, include NYU and NYU School of Law, search for CLS, and tell me what you come back with. Fool.

I found 7 CLS and 9 NYU Law, and a lot of both when I did a search for New York U/Columbia. I'm not going to go through and figure out which of those are UG and not law school, but you may be right.

Listen, I'm not sure why you're taking this so personally. I'm also not sure how a single firm (esp. a "well-known NYU feeder") is going to disprove the fact that CLS has better elite firm placement. All I said to OP was that 25k isn't worth giving up a dream (in my opinion), and that CLS does have placement advantage at the elite firms. If you think think they're identical, and that those V50 and V100 numbers are irrelevant because they're 3-4 years old, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Whatever the case may be, there's no need to call people "fools" for disagreeing with you and trying to have a civil discussion. Chillax, broseph.

[legalnoeagle]

I take it personally when people cite irrelevant and/or inherently flawed surveys as dogma when offering an opinion.

So yeah, agree to disagree.

[smov_operator]

Once your outside of a non-HYS T13 major market, they all sort of wash together. Many, many fewer CLS grads go to DC than from Cooley College of Law, many fewer CLS grads go to CA than from Berkeley - so you'll miss out on some networking and cheaper travel, but your degree - as promised - will be just as portable. Grades will make or break you.

I have to disagree with this to some extent. I bet most people in California have never even heard of NYU even though it's one of the best law schools. And since relatively few students from NYU or CLS come out west, I imagine the school's lay reputation makes a difference. This probably holds even with CA lawyers, since many won't have any NYU or CLS colleagues.

That being said. I'm not sure that difference is worth the savings, especially if you have no plans to come to Cali.

[AngryAvocado]

I take it personally when people cite irrelevant and/or inherently flawed surveys as dogma when offering an opinion.

So yeah, agree to disagree.

Why must you continue with the personal attacks? Since when is citing statistics taboo if it's the best data we have to go by? Like I said, if you've got better (or more recent) numbers that suggest otherwise, please share them. I'd rather see some numbers that are 3 years old than anecdotes or unsupported opinions. I'd post the numbers from the Vault 5 (Wachtell, Cravath, etc.), but I'm sure you already know it overwhelmingly favors CLS. So what data, then, is good enough?

[SandyC877]

I know we had a similar poll last week but I've got a few nuances to this classic question:

1. I am about 80% sure I want to go into Big-law
2. I did prefer Greenwich Village to Morningside Heights, but not a huge deal
3. I am saddled with $40,000+ in UG loans
4. This means total debt upon graduation will be around $200,000 at CLS versus $175,000 at NYU
5. As it is I'm leaning pretty heavily toward CLS, but I would like to hear arguments for picking NYU/not CLS
6. I'm still waiting on Not YLS, but I'm not overly optimistic (doesn't really affect this poll though)
7. I might have to make a decision by tomorrow

Hey Sogui, nice dilemma you got there. It's definitely one that I'd trade with. You seem like an extremely motivated and talented individual posing the most legitimate question of all time. Speaking of turdbags, are you aware that there are people in this world that have a severe medical condition which causes them to be that way? My mother for instance is one of those people. She is a truck driver that has bad knees and a bad back from driving the truck but you probably do not care about that case either. Oh well I am not one of those people I am 6'4" 245lbs and I exercise every day. I would love to see you say something like that to my mother in front of me. Probably never happen though you are probably just an internet tough guy. I doubt very seriously you would say that to someones face. Just my thought.What do you think. Oh I am sorry you probably do not have a brain. I on the other hand will be happy to buy you a plane ticket to come here and see if you have the nerve to say that to someone I know. "I'm proud to be gay. ... I love Jeff more than myself," Paul Katami, 37, of Burbank testified in a packed San Francisco courtroom. "Being gay doesn't make me any less of an American." But with voters' November 2008 passage of Proposition 8, which amended the state Constitution to define marriage as the union of a man and a woman, "being gay means I'm unequal," Katami said. "I've been in love with a woman for 10 years, and I don't have a word for it," said Kristin Perry, 45, who lives in Berkeley with her partner, Sandy Stier, 47, and their four children. "I do everything I can to be a contributing and valuable member of the state, and the state isn't letting us be happy." The two women - along with Katami and his partner of nearly nine years, 36-year-old Jeff Zarrillo - are suing to overturn Prop. 8, saying it violates the constitutional guarantee of equal protection by discriminating based on sexual orientation and gender. Their testimony took up most of the opening day of a nonjury trial before Chief U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker. The trial is the first in any federal court over same-sex marriage, and is the first step in a case that could reach the U.S. Supreme Court.

[AngryAvocado]

^

--ImageRemoved--

Ms. Sandy, what you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[legalnoeagle]

I take it personally when people cite irrelevant and/or inherently flawed surveys as dogma when offering an opinion.

So yeah, agree to disagree.

Why must you continue with the personal attacks? Since when is citing statistics taboo if it's the best data we have to go by? Like I said, if you've got better (or more recent) numbers that suggest otherwise, please share them. I'd rather see some numbers that are 3 years old than anecdotes or unsupported opinions. I'd post the numbers from the Vault 5 (Wachtell, Cravath, etc.), but I'm sure you already know it overwhelmingly favors CLS. So what data, then, is good enough?

I'm not attacking you. I'm attacking your data. I'm saying it's flawed. I'm saying I wouldn't base $25000 on it. That's all. There is NO definitive study to prove that, if you achieve the same grades or same class rank, you will have a substantially better shot at landing a Biglaw job if you go to CLS vs. NYU, which is what you implicate every time you post the damn links!

What good is an opinion that's supported by flawed data anyway? I'll take the informed opinion of a hiring partner any day.

And I'm not trolling for NYU, either. I acknowledged that CLS has a slight advantage in biglaw hiring in my first post! I also said that if the OP is worried about lay prestige, then CLS is the obvious choice.

[Tofu]

You have to go with the school that you want to go to the most and has the program that fits with what you want to do. $25K isn't much of a difference, so if you want to go to CLS, go for it!

Yeah. I have to say, from seeing your posts the last few weeks, I get the vibe that you have no love whatsoever for NYU. You should go to CLS, because in the long term, it seems like you'll be happier with that. The fact that you're even wrestling with this shows that you place some emotional/intangible value on CLS.

Undoubtedly, I had CLS set as my "goal" my "reach" when I first started researching schools and when I entered this cycle. I did better on my actual LSAT than my average PT so suddenly other schools like HLS became considerations too. I think it's really silly that I've let one number (LSAT) skew my perspective so much in a matter of months. I would have killed for Colombia last August.

There's just a lot of momentum going for Colombia, my initial reach/dream school, the one that my significant other has been pushing me towards, etc...

It sounds like you'd be happier with CLS.

[Unemployed]

Some people can't conceive of forgoing $25,000 for a little bit of happiness - or smug satisfaction, or whatever else is drawing you to Columbia. Others don't think $25,000 is a lot of money. But these (personal) opinions should not dictate how you decide. It's $25,000 of your money.

[njskatchmo]

I'd go CU. The difference between 175k in debt and 200k in debt isn't that big. Either way the amount you owe will be soul crushing, and the only way you will pay it off is with large payments against the principal when you get a really high paying job. With a job like that 25k will be less than a couple months work. So the money shouldn't be that big of a factor. Also, expect to pay that off maybe 10 years in the future, so you must discount that 25k by some fixed interest rate compounded upon itself. (Since you are effectively making the loan decision now). CU carries more lay prestige and has a nicer campus. Morningside Heights sucks, but is a short subway ride from the village. Either way you can live in either place so it's like you have to live in GV if you take the NYU offer.

[scribelaw]

The extra $25,000 would mean a $300 difference a month in your loan payments, for 10 years.

Considering that if you get a market-rate job in NYC, you'll likely be taking home something around $8,000 a month, after taxes, that's not a huge deal, IMO. If you prefer Columbia, go there. It does place slightly better in Biglaw generally and in elite firms in particular.

[tintin]

I don't think you can really make a bad decision under these circumstances.

congrats!!

[Unemployed]

Btw, did you show your NYU offer to CLS? CLS is pretty good about matching its peer schools...

[BenJ]

Btw, did you show your NYU offer to CLS? CLS is pretty good about matching its peer schools...

No, they aren't. CLS values NYU and Chicago at about 2/3rds of themselves, which is exactly what he got. A $75k scholarship at NYU or Chicago, when shown to Columbia, will get you $50k at Columbia (barring serious need).

[Unemployed]

Btw, did you show your NYU offer to CLS? CLS is pretty good about matching its peer schools...

No, they aren't. CLS values NYU and Chicago at about 2/3rds of themselves, which is exactly what he got. A $75k scholarship at NYU or Chicago, when shown to Columbia, will get you $50k at Columbia (barring serious need).

I guess it's my experience vs. yours (granted, yours seems to be a more common one). In my case, Columbia turned out to be more generous than NYU, Duke, and Berkeley. Don't be shy about picking up the phone and negotiating further after your letter arrives.

[Sogui]

The Director of admissions scrawled a note at the end that he was acknowledging my NYU aid.

It sounds like you'd be happier with CLS.

I'd like to think that I'm more rational than that and wouldn't assign emotional value to a school based on prestige and stuff, but you're probably right. As much as nobody here would want to admit it (it would make them/me sound like an ass), there is probably more satisfaction telling your friends/family/future acquaintances that you're going/went to Columbia Law School over NYU.

Also was held at Harvard today, making it all the more certain that it's down to NYU v CLS for me.

Still haven't decided, the poll is pretty indecisive but I greatly appreciate all the analysis that you guys have been providing, I know that whatever choice I make will be a pretty informed one!

I don't think you can really make a bad decision under these circumstances.

congrats!!

Thanks!


The thread is at exactly 50/50 now, looks like it's really just my personal preference at this point.

[JollyGreenGiant]

CLS. IMO.

[Sogui]

Can we determine from this thread that TLS has deemed CLS to be worth exactly $25,000 more than NYU?

[270910]

Can we determine from this thread that TLS has deemed CLS to be worth exactly $25,000 more than NYU?

TLS is full of dumb 1Ls. In the real world, the differences between the top schools is so much smaller than people here seem to think... sigh...