Mid-level schools with national appeal? Forum

[notme]

I reseached the issue of the reach of Notre Dame on the West Coast heavily last cycle. I'm from Southern California, and plan on practicing here. Before UCLA came through, ND was looking like my best choice so I talked to a number of firms here, and came to the conclusion that ND would have worked well. As for Tulane, I wouldn't know.

[RVP11]

BYU does pretty well throughout the Southwest and anywhere there is decent LDS presence.

[misformafia]

Notre Dame. That's about it.

[Aberzombie1892]

Tulane and Notre Dame are the most national schools (historical placement wise) than any school beyond Georgetown.

That's not to say that many of the schools afterward aren't top notch in the areas where they do place.

For example Vanderbilt has little pull in CA and TX. But it's still top notch and feeds into GA, TN, and to a lesser extent, NY.

See as follows:

Tulane 2007 Graduates Employment Location

Graduates employed in-state 30%
Graduates employed in foreign countries 1%
Number of states where graduates are employed 32
New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT) 2.5%
Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA) 12.3%
East North Central (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI) 3.0%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD) 0.5%
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV) 20.2%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN) 2.0%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX) 39.8%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA) 12.3%
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY) 3.5%
Employment location unknown 3.0%

University of Notre Dame 2007 Graduates Employment Location

Graduates employed in-state 10%
Graduates employed in foreign countries 2%
Number of states where graduates are employed 24
New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT) 2.3%
Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA) 17.1%
East North Central (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI) 40.0%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD) 3.4%
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV) 16.6%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN) 0.6%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX) 5.2%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA) 10.9%
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY) 1.1%
Employment location unknown 1.1%

Vanderbilt University 2007 Graduates Employment Location

Graduates employed in-state 15%
Graduates employed in foreign countries 2%
Number of states where graduates are employed 29
New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT) 2.0%
Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA) 12.0%
East North Central (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI) 13.0%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD) 1.0%
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV) 32.0%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN) 21.0%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX) 7.0%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA) 7.0%
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY) 3.0%
Employment location unknown 0.0%

By percentage of graduates:

NY region: Notre Dame>Tulane>Vanderbilt
IL region: Notre Dame>Vanderbilt>Tulane
CA region: Tulane> Notre Dame> Vanderbilt
VA/FL/DC/GA region: Vanderbilt>Notre Dame>Tulane
TX/LA region: Tulane>Vanderbilt> Notre Dame

True in peak big law times, Vanderbilt placed about 40% in big law (2007).

Notre Dame and Tulane were likely in the 30-38% range for big law during the same year.

So ultimately, it would arguably not be a wise decision to pay sticker at Vanderbilt over a scholarship at Notre Dame and Tulane.

However, people continually rationalize going for higher "ranked" schools for irrational reasons.

(i.e. going into more debt at a higher ranked school to have improved chances of getting a higher paying job to help them pay off that debt)

Even if that argument made sense, which it doesn't, is an additional $60,000+ of debt (including tuition, living expenses, and accruing interest) worth an additional 10%-15% chance at a big law job?

Not to me.

[lawoftheland]

I'd say IU Bloomington.

[misformafia]

Tulane? Really? Wow.

[RVP11]

I'd say IU Bloomington.

No.

[09042014]

I'd say IU Bloomington.

No.

Does IUB even travel to Chicago? I don't recall seeing too many IUB grads on firm websites when I looked at chicago firms about a month ago.

[misformafia]

I'd say IU Bloomington.

No.

hahahaha. +1.

[kurama20]

Emory.

[lawoftheland]

I'd say IU Bloomington.

No.

hahahaha. +1.

It's newly ranked in the mid 20's.... even though I'm not as obsessed with rankings as most, surely major city firms will take note.

[misformafia]

I'd say IU Bloomington.

No.

hahahaha. +1.

It's newly ranked in the mid 20's.... even though I'm not as obsessed with rankings as most, surely major city firms will take note.

Seriously, its new ranking is awesome and will no doubt help the school's prestige. However, it happened so quickly, and so recently that I don't think it can honestly be said to be national. Jumps like that are often times view with skepticism. We'll see how they fair in the next few years - they may solidify their status or again drop off into T1 obscurity.

[KmissP]

Most Tier 2 law schools don't have appeal in their own region, let alone a different region.


In short; their are none.

In short: there are none.

Love,
Your Friendly Spellchecker

[reasonable_man]

Most Tier 2 law schools don't have appeal in their own region, let alone a different region.


In short; their are none.

In short: there are none.

Love,
Your Friendly Spellchecker

Are you fucking serious? Congratulations; you now have something in common with my secretary. She checks my work for spelling/typos as well. Would you like to go photocopy some exhibits for me and make a few phone calls on my behalf? I might have a tape sitting around that needs to be dictated I could send ya?

Putz.

[KmissP]

C'mon, it's fifth grade English.
And at least it was somewhat friendly. You're just plain rude.

Edit: To add that you must be very... something... if you're Mr. Lawyer and kickin' it on pre-law and student forums.

[reasonable_man]

C'mon, it's fifth grade English.
And at least it was somewhat friendly. You're just plain rude.

You scrolled back through a thread in search of a spelling error to take a shot at me and I'm rude? You're pointing out spelling errors and typos on a law school forum. Seriously brah, go jump off a bridge. If you're life is this meaningless and boring now, it won't get any better after law school. I don't proof my posts on TLS. You can feel free to review my pleadings and motion papers. I can assure you; you will not find any errors.

And look... I even have a few more in here for ya... Have a BLAST!!!!

[JCougar]

Most Tier 2 law schools don't have appeal in their own region, let alone a different region.


In short; their are none.

In short: there are none.

Love,
Your Friendly Spellchecker

Are you fucking serious? Congratulations; you now have something in common with my secretary. She checks my work for spelling/typos as well. Would you like to go photocopy some exhibits for me and make a few phone calls on my behalf? I might have a tape sitting around that needs to be dictated I could send ya?

Putz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-tRErs5 ... re=related

[ggocat]

I have little to no empirical evidence to support this assertion, but this is my conclusion after interacting with various T1/2 students over the past several years:

The schools outside the T14 or so (wherever you draw the line at truly national schools) are probably "national" only in the sense that they attract students from across the country who return to wherever they already have personal connections. Thus, the "national" schools outside the top schools enroll a lot of students who are from other areas of the country. Some people might define this characteristic alone as "national." But others will say that "national" only refers to schools that can easily place students with employers in cities in which the students have no prior connections. I am of the latter opinion.

So, for example, a Harvard student from Texas shouldn't have a problem getting biglaw in New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago, even if the student doesn't have excellent marks.
But a Tulane student from Texas probably won't get biglaw in New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago unless he or she has truly exceptional grades.
Yet an Emory student from New York will have a decent shot at returning to New York, but will not have a good shot at going to Los Angeles or Chicago unless the student has some familial or other connection to the city or truly exceptional grades.

I also note the following:
Emory recently enrolled about 19% of its class from Georgia, but about 42% of students end up working in Georgia.
Notre Dame recently enrolled about 6% of its class from Indiana, but about 10% of students end up working in Indiana.
Tulane recently enrolled about 15% of its class from Louisiana, but about 30% of students end up working in Louisiana.
Vanderbilt recently enrolled about 9% of its class from Tennessee, but about 15% of students end up working in Tennessee.

So each of these schools enrolled fewer people from its state than the number of students who ended up working in the state. And with all of these schools except for Vandy, nearly twice as many students stayed in state compared to the number of in-state matriculates. I think it's safe to assume that most in-state students end up working in-state, and most out-of-state students end up working out-of-state "back home" or in some other state in which they have personal connections (again, except for the students with truly top grades who have more options open to them).

I am of the opinion that the location of your law school, even for regional schools, matters much less than most 0Ls think. If you have connections to a city other than the one your law school is located in, even in a completely different region, I don't think you need to be worried about the location of your law school. A non-national school probably won't open up "new" markets to you, but you can probably get a job "back home." That being said, I think there are very, very few truly national schools (probably less than 14). And, of course, if you go to a school in your desired city, you will have more opportunities for networking. But if you go to a regional school outside the region you want to practice, you're not doomed to work in your school's region.

(This post is coming from someone who goes to a tier 2/3 school and has a job lined up "back home," so maybe I'm biased in my thinking. Last time I checked, about 70% of matriculates at my school are from in state, and 80% of graduates work in state.)

PS: For this post, I relied on the ABA LSAC profiles and the following websites: http://www.law.emory.edu/about-emory-la ... lance.html. http://law.nd.edu/admissions-and-financ ... ss-profile. http://www.law.tulane.edu/tlsabout/index.aspx. http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-s ... index.aspx. http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-s ... index.aspx.

[09042014]

I have little to no empirical evidence to support this assertion, but this is my conclusion after interacting with various T1/2 students over the past several years:

The schools outside the T14 or so (wherever you draw the line at truly national schools) are probably "national" only in the sense that they attract students from across the country who return to wherever they already have personal connections. Thus, the "national" schools outside the top schools enroll a lot of students who are from other areas of the country. Some people might define this characteristic alone as "national." But others will say that "national" only refers to schools that can easily place students with employers in cities in which the students have no prior connections. I am of the latter opinion.

So, for example, a Harvard student from Texas shouldn't have a problem getting biglaw in New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago, even if the student doesn't have excellent marks.
But a Tulane student from Texas probably won't get biglaw in New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago unless he or she has truly exceptional grades.
Yet an Emory student from New York will have a decent shot at returning to New York, but will not have a good shot at going to Los Angeles or Chicago unless the student has some familial or other connection to the city or truly exceptional grades.

I also note the following:
Emory recently enrolled about 19% of its class from Georgia, but about 42% of students end up working in Georgia.
Notre Dame recently enrolled about 6% of its class from Indiana, but about 10% of students end up working in Indiana.
Tulane recently enrolled about 15% of its class from Louisiana, but about 30% of students end up working in Louisiana.
Vanderbilt recently enrolled about 9% of its class from Tennessee, but about 15% of students end up working in Tennessee.

So each of these schools enrolled fewer people from its state than the number of students who ended up working in the state. And with all of these schools except for Vandy, nearly twice as many students stayed in state compared to the number of in-state matriculates. I think it's safe to assume that most in-state students end up working in-state, and most out-of-state students end up working out-of-state "back home" or in some other state in which they have personal connections (again, except for the students with truly top grades who have more options open to them).

I am of the opinion that the location of your law school, even for regional schools, matters much less than most 0Ls think. If you have connections to a city other than the one your law school is located in, even in a completely different region, I don't think you need to be worried about the location of your law school. A non-national school probably won't open up "new" markets to you, but you can probably get a job "back home." That being said, I think there are very, very few truly national schools (probably less than 14). And, of course, if you go to a school in your desired city, you will have more opportunities for networking. But if you go to a regional school outside the region you want to practice, you're not doomed to work in your school's region.

(This post is coming from someone who goes to a tier 2/3 school and has a job lined up "back home," so maybe I'm biased in my thinking. Last time I checked, about 70% of matriculates at my school are from in state, and 80% of graduates work in state.)

PS: For this post, I relied on the ABA LSAC profiles and the following websites: http://www.law.emory.edu/about-emory-la ... lance.html. http://law.nd.edu/admissions-and-financ ... ss-profile. http://www.law.tulane.edu/tlsabout/index.aspx. http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-s ... index.aspx. http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-s ... index.aspx.

How many incoming law students have connections in the legal industry? Not many at all. For those who do, like you, taking a random T2 with cheap, or free tuition is a good deal.

The T25's you were talking about are still nationally recognized law schools. DC firms may prefer GW, but they at least know Vandy is a good school. The major draw back is the lack of firms who will be at OCI, where most of the good jobs are won. Also the schools you used place well in their general region. ND for example places a lot in Chicago. Out of state but still in market.

But most of the T2-T4 have no reputation. I'm guessing a lot of these graduates are going home because they can't find a decent job and then work whatever they can get, many of whom never even practice law.

[JCougar]

Fantastic, ggocat.

I hadn't really thought about that in as much depth, but that makes sense.

[Aberzombie1892]

I also note the following:
Emory recently enrolled about 19% of its class from Georgia, but about 42% of students end up working in Georgia.
Notre Dame recently enrolled about 6% of its class from Indiana, but about 10% of students end up working in Indiana.
Tulane recently enrolled about 15% of its class from Louisiana, but about 30% of students end up working in Louisiana.
Vanderbilt recently enrolled about 9% of its class from Tennessee, but about 15% of students end up working in Tennessee.

So each of these schools enrolled fewer people from its state than the number of students who ended up working in the state. And with all of these schools except for Vandy, nearly twice as many students stayed in state compared to the number of in-state matriculates. I think it's safe to assume that most in-state students end up working in-state, and most out-of-state students end up working out-of-state "back home" or in some other state in which they have personal connections (again, except for the students with truly top grades who have more options open to them).

While it is a good point,

how is what they do any different than what the T14 do?

By that I mean

1. Yale
2. Harvard
3. Stanford - this school probably recruits relatively few people from CA, but around 50%+ end up staying there.
4. Columbia - ditto from NY but only around 40% stay
5. NYU - ditto from NY but around 60% stay
6. Berkeley - ditto from CA but around 70% stay
7. Chicago - ditto from IL but around 45% stay
8. Pennsylvania - ditto from PA but the 60% feed into NY instead of Pennsylvania
9. Michigan - different because MI has no market.

You can see where I'm going.

My point is that while the schools you noted do do that, so do the T14 (etc. HY).

So the real question is,

if the T14 does it as well, does it really matter?

Your thoughts were actually pretty good.

It's rare to encounter intelligent and reasonable person on this site.

Good day sir (or madame).

[flcath]

They're not national, but I think that the University of Florida and Florida State U. are the #1 and #2 best schools in the T2, and it has nothing to do with their ordinal placement. They are the top two schools in a major state, have shown a marked (and ongoing) increase in quality in recent years, and place well within the state of Florida, which is where I live right now--and let me tell you, living in FL is awesome.

Similarly, I think that Stetson is one of the top T3s in the nation (though it often makes the top 100), for similar reasons... the rest of FL's schools though (outside of UF, FSU, UM, and Stetson) are *hardcore* toilets, the kind that attrite 25% of their 1L class. In fact, I firmly believe Barry and FL Coastal are objectively worse than Cooley; they just don't put out rankings that show them above Yale.

Summation: I think you've gotta choose a region (or do really, really well in LS), and I think FL is a great region to choose, and one that affords excellent opportunities to UF/FSU grads.

[sibley]

The reason lower-ranked schools don't have national appeal is because they focus on more concrete, localized things. They teach you the state's laws whereas HYS would teach more theoretically. If you want to work in a firm, you have the added benefit of using your law school friends as advisors when you're not sure about something. You can't do that if they're practicing across the country - their laws won't necessarily apply to your cases.

[09042014]

The reason lower-ranked schools don't have national appeal is because they focus on more concrete, localized things. They teach you the state's laws whereas HYS would teach more theoretically. If you want to work in a firm, you have the added benefit of using your law school friends as advisors when you're not sure about something. You can't do that if they're practicing across the country - their laws won't necessarily apply to your cases.

Lets be honest. They have less talented faculty, and less talented student body, on average of course. That's why they don't have national appeal. That doesn't mean you won't get a decent education, its just not as good.

I think there is too much prestige whoring in the legal field, but lets not pretend the difference between Northwestern and Depaul is that Depaul teaches more local. Also a lot of the T3's and T4's (but not all) are diploma mills.

[kurama20]

Emory