Official Foreign Applicants Thread 2011-2012 Forum

[Wicem]

TOEFL is not required for the JD program but thank you for your advice, I appreciate. I read everything about JD applicants but US applicants and there is nothing about international JD students excepted this thread...

This is not true, there are some schools that require TOEFL for JD students. And even the schools that don't require receive your score - if it is good, better for you.
By the way, I am also a lawyer at another country with 2 years of post grad WE and 5 languages, somewhat similar to you. Feel free to PM if you want!

I don't see the point, I mean if you scored well on the LSAT, It's obvious that you are fluent in english...

[Nulli Secundus]

Do we have any information regarding how many full internationals got a JS2 (Harvard) etc. for the moment?

[AntipodeanPhil]

Do we have any information regarding how many full internationals got a JS2 (Harvard) etc. for the moment?

I think so far it's just Dean. There is someone on LSN who claims to have a JS2, but I think it's just Dean using a different name, since that person's stats and nationality are identical to Dean's. Of course, there are likely others who don't use LSN or TLS.

I think it's highly likely another one or two of us will get JS2s in March or April - perhaps more than that if Harvard needs to protect its LSAT median. I don't have any real evidence for that prediction, alas (although I think the fact that they've held so many of us must mean something).

However, four US-educated internationals claim to have received JS2s on LSN.

[AntipodeanPhil]

But there is funny to see that's going more competitive for non US citizens...And what about the story of diversity and blabla?

but anyway thank you.

Perhaps if you can claim you are African / of African descent, that will help you. We don't know, because all of us are from groups they don't want more of (Europeans, Asians).

The standard view here is that being an international student from an under-represented minority group (a URM) doesn't help anywhere near as much as being a US applicant from an under-represented minority group, but so few international students from under-represented minority groups apply that we don't really know.

[Nulli Secundus]

Do we have any information regarding how many full internationals got a JS2 (Harvard) etc. for the moment?

I think so far it's just Dean. There is someone on LSN who claims to have a JS2, but I think it's just Dean using a different name, since that person's stats and nationality are identical to Dean's. Of course, there are likely others who don't use LSN or TLS.

However, four US-educated internationals claim to have received JS2s on LSN.

Thanks for the info!

I wish we had a counter in their blog that shows the current number of total JS2s

[Wicem]

But there is funny to see that's going more competitive for non US citizens...And what about the story of diversity and blabla?

but anyway thank you.

Perhaps if you can claim you are African / of African descent, that will help you. We don't know, because all of us are from groups they don't want more of (Europeans, Asians).

The standard view here is that being an international student from an under-represented minority group (a URM) doesn't help anywhere near as much as being a US applicant from an under-represented minority group, but so few international students from under-represented minority groups apply that we don't really know.

Well, I am from north African parents since my parents immigrate to Belgium but nevermind. I don t want them to accept me because I am from an under represented minority but because they like my profile.

And does the MBA committee relies on the HLS' decision or is it really a separated process ?

Ah yes, only law schools here !

[TatNurner]

But there is funny to see that's going more competitive for non US citizens...And what about the story of diversity and blabla?

but anyway thank you.

Perhaps if you can claim you are African / of African descent, that will help you. We don't know, because all of us are from groups they don't want more of (Europeans, Asians).

The standard view here is that being an international student from an under-represented minority group (a URM) doesn't help anywhere near as much as being a US applicant from an under-represented minority group, but so few international students from under-represented minority groups apply that we don't really know.

I'm curious about this. Why would this be the case? My understanding was that schools only care about what they can report? If this is the case then if they can get an international URM (let's say black/African) with USA GPA + good stats wont they take them with no qualms?

[JosephusMyer]

But there is funny to see that's going more competitive for non US citizens...And what about the story of diversity and blabla?

but anyway thank you.

Perhaps if you can claim you are African / of African descent, that will help you. We don't know, because all of us are from groups they don't want more of (Europeans, Asians).

The standard view here is that being an international student from an under-represented minority group (a URM) doesn't help anywhere near as much as being a US applicant from an under-represented minority group, but so few international students from under-represented minority groups apply that we don't really know.

I'm curious about this. Why would this be the case? My understanding was that schools only care about what they can report? If this is the case then if they can get an international URM (let's say black/African) with USA GPA + good stats wont they take them with no qualms?

I think the cynical TLS consensus is that schools only care what they report. Personally, I'm skeptical of that, at least for the HYSs of the world. I think the adcomms at HYS care about URM status for a reason, and it's to enhance social equality. I suspect the reason that there's less of a URM boost for internationals is that the reality is that the vast majority of internationals come from well-off backgrounds, even in poor countries. They know this, and they know that giving a place to the élite of country X is not going to empower the powerless. They aren't just doing a box-ticking exercise - there is some kind of thought there.

[danitt]

But there is funny to see that's going more competitive for non US citizens...And what about the story of diversity and blabla?

but anyway thank you.

Perhaps if you can claim you are African / of African descent, that will help you. We don't know, because all of us are from groups they don't want more of (Europeans, Asians).

The standard view here is that being an international student from an under-represented minority group (a URM) doesn't help anywhere near as much as being a US applicant from an under-represented minority group, but so few international students from under-represented minority groups apply that we don't really know.

I'm curious about this. Why would this be the case? My understanding was that schools only care about what they can report? If this is the case then if they can get an international URM (let's say black/African) with USA GPA + good stats wont they take them with no qualms?

I think the cynical TLS consensus is that schools only care what they report. Personally, I'm skeptical of that, at least for the HYSs of the world. I think the adcomms at HYS care about URM status for a reason, and it's to enhance social equality. I suspect the reason that there's less of a URM boost for internationals is that the reality is that the vast majority of internationals come from well-off backgrounds, even in poor countries. They know this, and they know that giving a place to the élite of country X is not going to empower the powerless. They aren't just doing a box-ticking exercise - there is some kind of thought there.

As an applicant that doesn't have two cents to rub together and is a URM from a developing country, I have to say that it's sort of a circular construct - the perception sort of feeds into reality which affects the perception. When I said I wanted to go to law school in the I was discouraged, not by people here, but by people back home because the perception is that school in the US is for the wealthy. So maybe poorer URMs don't apply because they don't think that they have a shot and that affects the stats which continue to feed this idea that law school is unattainable for the international URM applicant that's not well off.

[Nulli Secundus]

Fact check: There is no concept of "international URM". To be an underrepresented minority, you first need to be a minority in the given population (i.e. US citizen), and usually belong in one of the few groups traditionally recognized as URMs. (500 african american people 2000 US population - %25 - 8 african american people 100 total law students - %8 -> %8 < %25 -> URM.) HTH.

[danitt]

Fact check: There is no concept of "international URM". To be an underrepresented minority, you first need to be a minority in the given population (i.e. US citizen), and usually belong in one of the few groups traditionally recognized as URMs. (500 african american people 2000 US population - %25 - 8 african american people 100 total law students - %8 -> %8 < %25 -> URM.) HTH.

Granted. I do find myself wondering how many international students (that would be considered URMs otherwise) are actually enrolled in US law schools because just from the purely unscientific look of it at TLS, most are of European or Asian descent.

[Wicem]

Fact check: There is no concept of "international URM". To be an underrepresented minority, you first need to be a minority in the given population (i.e. US citizen), and usually belong in one of the few groups traditionally recognized as URMs. (500 african american people 2000 US population - %25 - 8 african american people 100 total law students - %8 -> %8 < %25 -> URM.) HTH.

+1


This is exactly what I was thinking

[Nulli Secundus]

Fact check: There is no concept of "international URM". To be an underrepresented minority, you first need to be a minority in the given population (i.e. US citizen), and usually belong in one of the few groups traditionally recognized as URMs. (500 african american people 2000 US population - %25 - 8 african american people 100 total law students - %8 -> %8 < %25 -> URM.) HTH.

Granted. I do find myself wondering how many international students (that would be considered URMs otherwise) are actually enrolled in US law schools because just from the purely unscientific look of it at TLS, most are of European or Asian descent.

They wouldn't be considered URM under any circumstances regardless of their nationality. URM status and the reputed boost it entails are only granted to alleviate the inequality I demonstrated crudely above. Land of equal opportunities and all that. But non-US citizens do not gain any benefit from this, as it is not due to "race" but rather due to providing equal opportunities to every part that makes the whole.

[TatNurner]

Fact check: There is no concept of "international URM". To be an underrepresented minority, you first need to be a minority in the given population (i.e. US citizen), and usually belong in one of the few groups traditionally recognized as URMs. (500 african american people 2000 US population - %25 - 8 african american people 100 total law students - %8 -> %8 < %25 -> URM.) HTH.

Ok, so just to clarify, are you are saying that the black African international student with USA GPA would not get URM boost because it only applies to citizens? Or that because they belong to "one of the few groups (broadly speaking) traditionally recognized as URM" they would in fact get the boost?

[Nulli Secundus]

Fact check: There is no concept of "international URM". To be an underrepresented minority, you first need to be a minority in the given population (i.e. US citizen), and usually belong in one of the few groups traditionally recognized as URMs. (500 african american people 2000 US population - %25 - 8 african american people 100 total law students - %8 -> %8 < %25 -> URM.) HTH.

Ok, so just to clarify, are you are saying that the black African international student with USA GPA would not get URM boost because it only applies to citizens? Or that because they belong to "one of the few groups (broadly speaking) traditionally recognized as URM" they would in fact get the boost?

From the FAQ on this very site:

"A URM is, quite simply, a minority group whose percentage of the population at a given law school is lower than their percentage of the population in the country. This also means that at some schools URM applicants may be treated differently than at others."

"Aside from anecdotal evidence, we have very few resources to outline who is and is not considered a URM. However, one powerful resource we have of understanding the URM process is Grutter v. Bollinger, a recent case that questioned the validity of race-based admissions. In this case, Grutter – a Caucasian Michigan resident – argued that the four groups considered URM’s (American Indians/Alaskan Natives, African Americans/Blacks, Mexican Americans, and Puerto Ricans) were reviewed under more favorable admissions standards, resulting in her denial of admission at the University of Michigan. From this case we are able to deduce the four groups outlined did in fact receive (at least some) “boost” at Michigan and, most likely, other law schools as well"

The bolded groups are what LSAC publishes under the heading of "minority enrollment", like USNWR rankings and their effects on admissions process, this LSAC policy seems to have resulted in only these groups receiving a boost, if any.

So, no, according to TLS conventional wisdom, an African with a US GPA would not benefit from this policy.

[JosephusMyer]

Offer from YLS! Wow.

[AntipodeanPhil]

Offer from YLS! Wow.

Wow indeed. Congratulations! I am extremely envious . It's surprising that Yale accepted you before Harvard - I think it's almost always the other way around.

Out of curiosity, any hints on your background (and especially what you think got you in)? You said you're K-JD. Are you at one of Oxbridge? The University of London system? Somewhere else? It would be interesting to know a little more about what Yale is looking for in international students.

ETA: Nevermind! I just found your LSN profile.

[JosephusMyer]

Offer from YLS! Wow.

Wow indeed. Congratulations! I am extremely envious . It's surprising that Yale accepted you before Harvard - I think it's almost always the other way around.

Out of curiosity, any hints on your background (and especially what you think got you in)? You said you're K-JD. Are you at one of Oxbridge? The University of London system? Somewhere else? It would be interesting to know a little more about what Yale is looking for in international students.

ETA: Nevermind! I just found your LSN profile.

For the benefit of anyone else who may be reading this, then, my background is somewhat odd. Oxbridge, strong LSAT, some interesting extracurriculars and several interesting legal internships (including one non-profit). What's odd (and probably makes me instantly identifiable to any lurking admissions officers) is that my undergrad is in English Law. That makes me utterly useless as a comparison point

[Unagi]

Fact check: There is no concept of "international URM". To be an underrepresented minority, you first need to be a minority in the given population (i.e. US citizen), and usually belong in one of the few groups traditionally recognized as URMs. (500 african american people 2000 US population - %25 - 8 african american people 100 total law students - %8 -> %8 < %25 -> URM.) HTH.

Ok, so just to clarify, are you are saying that the black African international student with USA GPA would not get URM boost because it only applies to citizens? Or that because they belong to "one of the few groups (broadly speaking) traditionally recognized as URM" they would in fact get the boost?

From the FAQ on this very site:

"A URM is, quite simply, a minority group whose percentage of the population at a given law school is lower than their percentage of the population in the country. This also means that at some schools URM applicants may be treated differently than at others."

"Aside from anecdotal evidence, we have very few resources to outline who is and is not considered a URM. However, one powerful resource we have of understanding the URM process is Grutter v. Bollinger, a recent case that questioned the validity of race-based admissions. In this case, Grutter – a Caucasian Michigan resident – argued that the four groups considered URM’s (American Indians/Alaskan Natives, African Americans/Blacks, Mexican Americans, and Puerto Ricans) were reviewed under more favorable admissions standards, resulting in her denial of admission at the University of Michigan. From this case we are able to deduce the four groups outlined did in fact receive (at least some) “boost” at Michigan and, most likely, other law schools as well"

The bolded groups are what LSAC publishes under the heading of "minority enrollment", like USNWR rankings and their effects on admissions process, this LSAC policy seems to have resulted in only these groups receiving a boost, if any.

So, no, according to TLS conventional wisdom, an African with a US GPA would not benefit from this policy.

I don't know if this is 100% true.
I'm from South America (totally international) with a foreign GPA and I was considered a URM at UCLA. I only know about this because I was invited to a visit focused on URM (all expense paid). So, international an URM in at least one school.

[bk641]

held at columbia.. loci time i guess

[AntipodeanPhil]

held at columbia.. loci time i guess

Sorry to hear that. Columbia seems less international-friendly this cycle - I can't believe they'd hold a 174.

At least you're in at NYU.

[bk641]

yeah, i'm not too disappointed, but the thing is two years ago, when i only had a 168 i still got held (twice and then WLed)... and now i have major work experience (army) and a significantly higher score, so i don't know what to make of it. guess it's not so cut-and-dry as we make it out to be!

[fingerscrossedxx]

held at columbia.. loci time i guess

Sorry to hear that. Columbia seems less international-friendly this cycle - I can't believe they'd hold a 174.

At least you're in at NYU.

So true

[junaman]

First time posting here, but I'm from Australia with a 175 LSAT, high local GPA.

Accepted at Columbia. Held at Harvard without any phone interviews.
Those were the only two I applied to.

Currently will be starting the JD at the University of Melbourne until I figure out how to finance the whole New York thing.
Any tips?

[AntipodeanPhil]

Accepted at Columbia. Held at Harvard without any phone interviews.
Those were the only two I applied to.

Currently will be starting the JD at the University of Melbourne until I figure out how to finance the whole New York thing.
Any tips?

Welcome, and congratulations - Columbia has been very picky with internationals this year.

Does your last comment mean you'll be waiting a year? If so, you should apply to more schools (at least Yale, Stanford, Chicago, and NYU). Even if you don't want to go to Chicago or NYU, they might offer you scholarship money, and you could use that to negotiate scholarship money from Columbia.

That would only pay for part of your fees, though, and I have no suggestions for the rest.