Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end. Forum

[Mickey Quicknumbers]

Orlando

Orlando's a market?

Ha, I guess I dunno much about Orlando. Maybe Tampa would have been a better example.

Hey screw you guys.

[bigkahuna2020]

the more I think about the prospects after law school, the more I wish i spent my time applying for a phd in human cognitive development.

starting to fully re consider this entire thing, and think its time for a re take, re evaluate, and re focus my soul searching. better to be doing this now, than one year from now.

LoL, seriously? If you think the legal job market is bad, you must not know anything about academia. For phd's in hard sciences, even, those that pick up prestigious postdocs work at them for 5-7 years (paid at stand NHS/NSF salaries for postdocs of less than 40k, and usually 33-38k, not rising for 6-7 years, to eventually get an salary of 50k for 4 years before getting on the tenure track)

And that is if you go to the best programs, which have acceptance rates that make YHS law pale in comparision...and usually like to see some pretty hardcore lab experience after university...

Basically, you are going to be 36-38 before you finally get into tenure track....if you are at the top of your field

People complaining about the legal field need to find out how the rest of the educated professions are suffering

[20160810]

Talk to a random sampling of 3Ls at T3s about their employment prospects and then see if you feel the same way. Self-reported data from schools doesn't mean, as Kurt Vonnegut once said, doodly squat.

[AreJay711]

the more I think about the prospects after law school, the more I wish i spent my time applying for a phd in human cognitive development.

starting to fully re consider this entire thing, and think its time for a re take, re evaluate, and re focus my soul searching. better to be doing this now, than one year from now.

LoL, seriously? If you think the legal job market is bad, you must not know anything about academia. For phd's in hard sciences, even, those that pick up prestigious postdocs work at them for 5-7 years (paid at stand NHS/NSF salaries for postdocs of less than 40k, and usually 33-38k, not rising for 6-7 years, to eventually get an salary of 50k for 4 years before getting on the tenure track)

And that is if you go to the best programs, which have acceptance rates that make YHS law pale in comparision...and usually like to see some pretty hardcore lab experience after university...

Basically, you are going to be 36-38 before you finally get into tenure track....if you are at the top of your field

People complaining about the legal field need to find out how the rest of the educated professions are suffering

PhD nominal cost = $0

JD nominal Cost = $180K

[ResolutePear]

Orlando

Orlando's a market?

Ha, I guess I dunno much about Orlando. Maybe Tampa would have been a better example.

Hey screw you guys.

<3

[ResolutePear]

the more I think about the prospects after law school, the more I wish i spent my time applying for a phd in human cognitive development.

starting to fully re consider this entire thing, and think its time for a re take, re evaluate, and re focus my soul searching. better to be doing this now, than one year from now.

LoL, seriously? If you think the legal job market is bad, you must not know anything about academia. For phd's in hard sciences, even, those that pick up prestigious postdocs work at them for 5-7 years (paid at stand NHS/NSF salaries for postdocs of less than 40k, and usually 33-38k, not rising for 6-7 years, to eventually get an salary of 50k for 4 years before getting on the tenure track)

And that is if you go to the best programs, which have acceptance rates that make YHS law pale in comparision...and usually like to see some pretty hardcore lab experience after university...

Basically, you are going to be 36-38 before you finally get into tenure track....if you are at the top of your field

People complaining about the legal field need to find out how the rest of the educated professions are suffering

PhD nominal cost = $0

JD nominal Cost = $180K

Not all PhD's are free - a lot are. Especially since the majority of students on this board are Political Science.

[bigkahuna2020]

the more I think about the prospects after law school, the more I wish i spent my time applying for a phd in human cognitive development.

starting to fully re consider this entire thing, and think its time for a re take, re evaluate, and re focus my soul searching. better to be doing this now, than one year from now.

LoL, seriously? If you think the legal job market is bad, you must not know anything about academia. For phd's in hard sciences, even, those that pick up prestigious postdocs work at them for 5-7 years (paid at stand NHS/NSF salaries for postdocs of less than 40k, and usually 33-38k, not rising for 6-7 years, to eventually get an salary of 50k for 4 years before getting on the tenure track)

And that is if you go to the best programs, which have acceptance rates that make YHS law pale in comparision...and usually like to see some pretty hardcore lab experience after university...

Basically, you are going to be 36-38 before you finally get into tenure track....if you are at the top of your field

People complaining about the legal field need to find out how the rest of the educated professions are suffering

PhD nominal cost = $0

JD nominal Cost = $180K

And comparing the average (not even median) salaries in both these fields shows why. Not to mention there are plenty of unemployed PhD's----and not just in political science

[Aggiegrad2011]

Even if you have some debt from a PhD, it's not going to be anywhere near 150 grand unless it's an outlying situation.

[Mickey Quicknumbers]

Even if you have some debt from a PhD, it's not going to be anywhere near 150 grand unless it's an outlying situation.

The same thing can be said about law school from a T3 though

[XxSpyKEx]

Even if you have some debt from a PhD, it's not going to be anywhere near 150 grand unless it's an outlying situation.

The same thing can be said about law school from a T3 though

Not really. Even when you factor in scholarships, i'd guess that at least half of all t3 students are paying sticker. At sticker at t3s, you can easily hit $150K (just cost of living for 3 years, health insurance, books, etc will run you $50k in a non-major city).

[ResolutePear]

Even if you have some debt from a PhD, it's not going to be anywhere near 150 grand unless it's an outlying situation.

The same thing can be said about law school from a T3 though

Not really. Even when you factor in scholarships, i'd guess that at least half of all t3 students are paying sticker. At sticker at t3s, you can easily hit $150K (just cost of living for 3 years, health insurance, books, etc will run you $50k in a non-major city).

So what you're saying is.....

When you go for a PhD: you don't need a place, you'll never get sick, will get your books for free, etc.?

Where the fuck do I sign up? For serious. Sounds like a great deal to me.

[flcath]

Non-science PhDs are a horrible deal, in general.

But were that many of us really considering them?

[dr123]

I think what the message the OP is trying to convey is that going to a t3 school doesn't mean you're doomed for failure and that is possible to be a prominent attorney coming from a t3, it is just an uphill battle.

[Mickey Quicknumbers]

Even if you have some debt from a PhD, it's not going to be anywhere near 150 grand unless it's an outlying situation.

The same thing can be said about law school from a T3 though

Not really. Even when you factor in scholarships, i'd guess that at least half of all t3 students are paying sticker. At sticker at t3s, you can easily hit $150K (just cost of living for 3 years, health insurance, books, etc will run you $50k in a non-major city).

wow complete actually-reading-what-was-written fail, thought it was talking about job in come

[XxSpyKEx]

Even if you have some debt from a PhD, it's not going to be anywhere near 150 grand unless it's an outlying situation.

The same thing can be said about law school from a T3 though

Not really. Even when you factor in scholarships, i'd guess that at least half of all t3 students are paying sticker. At sticker at t3s, you can easily hit $150K (just cost of living for 3 years, health insurance, books, etc will run you $50k in a non-major city).

So what you're saying is.....

When you go for a PhD: you don't need a place, you'll never get sick, will get your books for free, etc.?

Yes (minus the you never get sick, lol). You actually get paid to go to school because you get paid for your required research/teaching assistanceship. And, to sweeten the deal, if you do a research assistanceship, you get to do research towards your own dissertation that you had to do anyways (which you also get paid for).

Where the fuck do I sign up? For serious. Sounds like a great deal to me.

I actually said the exact same thing to my 30 some year old neighbor during my 1st year of law school when he told me about how he never had a real job in his life and how he was actually getting paid to get a PhD.

[Fark-o-vision]

Non-science PhDs are a horrible deal, in general.

But were that many of us really considering them?

I know you were speaking in generalities, but rhet comp PHD's are a great deal for those who can get in the programs. My friends were getting tenure track university jobs with only in-program publishing credits.

[romothesavior]

I think what the message the OP is trying to convey is that going to a t3 school doesn't mean you're doomed for failure and that is possible to be a prominent attorney coming from a t3, it is just an uphill battle.

A T20 is an uphill battle. A T3 (depending on the price tag and the market) can be like rock climbing with no hands.

[unc0mm0n1]

.

[Adjudicator]

I think what the message the OP is trying to convey is that going to a t3 school doesn't mean you're doomed for failure and that is possible to be a prominent attorney coming from a t3, it is just an uphill battle.

A T20 is an uphill battle. A T3 (depending on the price tag and the market) can be like rock climbing with no hands.

My boss graduated from Cooley (yes that Cooley). He is one of the best lawyers I know handles mostly transactional stuff. But he runs a law office in the Netherlands makes 6 figures, drives a new 5 series (paid), and has a place that is in a beautiful area of the Netherlands. His subordinates graduated from Vandy, Ohio state and W&M. Now he is not the norm I know that and I'd never advise someone to go to Cooley (actually he hates Cooley and also would never advise anyone to go there) but it is possible to make a good living with a crap law degree.

I hate it when people say things like this. How long ago did your boss graduate from Cooley? Unless it was in the last few years, it is of very little relevance to prospective students today.

^Anecdotal evidence of questionable relevance.

[vanwinkle]

My boss graduated from Cooley (yes that Cooley). He is one of the best lawyers I know handles mostly transactional stuff. But he runs a law office in the Netherlands makes 6 figures, drives a new 5 series (paid), and has a place that is in a beautiful area of the Netherlands. His subordinates graduated from Vandy, Ohio state and W&M. Now he is not the norm I know that and I'd never advise someone to go to Cooley (actually he hates Cooley and also would never advise anyone to go there) but it is possible to make a good living with a crap law degree.

My point was that it's risky for everyone right now, and the further you go down the rankings the riskier it gets. There are still people hiring everywhere, and still people finding jobs even from T3/T4 schools, but it's not a question of whether, it's a question of how often.

[romothesavior]

(actually he hates Cooley and also would never advise anyone to go there)

^^ Most insightful and helpful part of your post. 0Ls, not even successful graduates of T4s think you should go to their alma mater.

(And this isn't an isolated anecdote... the only JMLS grad I know is embarrassed by it and wouldn't advise his worst enemy to go there.)

[BaronDetroit]

The points raised by my earlier postings should certainly be beneficial to all T3/T4 prospective students to ensure that they certainly would be wise to enter those schools and leave with the exact same benefit arising out of a J.D. as the allegedly superior institutions.

[romothesavior]

The points raised by my earlier postings should certainly be beneficial to all T3/T4 prospective students to ensure that they certainly would be wise to enter those schools and leave with the exact same benefit arising out of a J.D. as the allegedly superior institutions.

Your schtick is mighty, mighty old.

[GATORTIM]

A T20 is an uphill battle. A T3 (depending on the price tag and the market) can be like rock climbing with no hands.

--ImageRemoved--

[northwood]

SLY =Rambo= can overcome that obstacle with no problem. It would be easier for him if people were shooting rocket launchers at him while he was climbing those rocks