KJD and/or Weak Softs Thread Forum

[redbull12]

Why are you trying to make student gov sound important? No one shit about student gov, not even other students.

Is that directed at me? Obviously I'm going to disagree about whether it is important, but I don't think student gov is a very strong soft. I'm just using it for examples because it's the first one to pop in my mind and very common.

I think it was directed at you.

[Otunga]

Sorry if this is a stupid question but are people who do a master's between undergrad and law school still considered KJD?

Not a stupid question at all. I don't think everyone would I agree, but I'd say no. Completing a master's has to be a better soft than what most of us in this thread have done. It doesn't seem to affect cycles all that much, but I doubt adcoms see applicants with a masters like they do K-UG-JDs.

Especially since as a masters student, one often has to do assistantships and otherwise work to fund their degree (unless they don't care about taking loans out), plus legitimate research experience should count as a plus for the Yale's and Chicago's of the world.

[Banshee]

Sorry if this is a stupid question but are people who do a master's between undergrad and law school still considered KJD?

Not a stupid question at all. I don't think everyone would I agree, but I'd say no. Completing a master's has to be a better soft than what most of us in this thread have done. It doesn't seem to affect cycles all that much, but I doubt adcoms see applicants with a masters like they do K-UG-JDs.

I agree. I would consider myself a KMA (kindergarten to grad school/masters), but not a KJD because I took a few years off to work and travel after completing my masters. I have mixed feelings on how great of a soft it is. On the one hand I feel my time in grad school was invaluable. Grad school is a whole different game from undergrad, and while I expect law school to be different still, I think it will relate much more to my experience in grad school than undergrad. With that said, from an admissions stand point, I don't think it matters that much. I'm still initially rated on my LSAT/UGPA, not my LSAT/UGPA/GGPA and there isn't a lot of room to share your graduate accomplishments when applying.

[cesium]

Sorry if this is a stupid question but are people who do a master's between undergrad and law school still considered KJD?

The point of the "KJD vs. non-KJD" distinction in the minds of admissions officers is the levels of maturity and types of background experiences their incoming students have. Thus, it depends on the type of master's degree. If it is strictly coursework or an extension of your bachelor's degree without any significant projects or research, then you would be a KJD. However, if earning your degree involves skills and experiences that go beyond the type in an undergraduate program, such as doing thesis research as supervised by a professor, teaching undergraduates, having real responsibilities (meeting deadlines, helping your professor pitch for grant money, managing undergraduate assistants, etc), then you'd effectively be a non-KJD.

[Otunga]

Sorry if this is a stupid question but are people who do a master's between undergrad and law school still considered KJD?

The point of the "KJD vs. non-KJD" distinction in the minds of admissions officers is the levels of maturity and types of background experiences their incoming students have. Thus, it depends on the type of master's degree. If it is strictly coursework or an extension of your bachelor's degree without any significant projects or research, then you would be a KJD. However, if earning your degree involves skills and experiences that go beyond the type in an undergraduate program, such as doing thesis research as supervised by a professor, teaching undergraduates, having real responsibilities (meeting deadlines, helping your professor pitch for grant money, managing undergraduate assistants, etc), then you'd effectively be a non-KJD.

I largely think it's an important distinction. That said, UG students sometimes get solid research experience, and may get to teach younger UGs and work as TAs as well. But I would think responsibility as a masters student tends to be greater.

[OliveBC]

I'm curious: for those definitely set on going KJD, what's the reasoning behind your decision?

[cee cee]

I'm curious: for those definitely set on going KJD, what's the reasoning behind your decision?

I have a clear idea of what I want to do, and since I am lucky enough to not have any undergrad loans, working for a year or two just seems like I would be biding my time until I could go to school to get the job I actually want. If I had UG loans, this would probably be a completely different calculation.
eta: also, fear

[OliveBC]

I'm curious: for those definitely set on going KJD, what's the reasoning behind your decision?

I have a clear idea of what I want to do, and since I am lucky enough to not have any undergrad loans, working for a year or two just seems like I would be biding my time until I could go to school to get the job I actually want. If I had UG loans, this would probably be a completely different calculation.
eta: also, fear

this is pretty much exactly how I feel (except I do have undergrad loans which is probably a lot of the reason I'm waffling)

[Fiero85]

I'm curious: for those definitely set on going KJD, what's the reasoning behind your decision?

I have a clear idea of what I want to do, and since I am lucky enough to not have any undergrad loans, working for a year or two just seems like I would be biding my time until I could go to school to get the job I actually want. If I had UG loans, this would probably be a completely different calculation.
eta: also, fear

^Ditto

[Attax]

I'm curious: for those definitely set on going KJD, what's the reasoning behind your decision?

What others have said, of course. But to add on top of that, I have experience with research in my field and know it bores me to death. Why spend 2 years off being bored to death and feeling like a waste of time instead of pursuing the career I know that I want?

[Quest4Knowledge]

I'm curious: for those definitely set on going KJD, what's the reasoning behind your decision?

I wouldn't say I'm DEFINITELY set on going KJD, but I don't want to take time off just for the sake of taking time off.

If I can't find anything meaningful to do but am still set on practising law, taking time off increases the already incredibly high opportunity cost of law school.

[FattyMcFatFat]

Add Northwestern to the poll.

[Kimikho]

Add Northwestern to the poll.

I can't. We can only have ten options. I removed Yale, because no one ITT has gotten in, and Northwestern, because that is the least likely to accept KJDs.

[Brettanomyces]

I'm curious: for those definitely set on going KJD, what's the reasoning behind your decision?

My mom's bugging.

TBF, I did take a year off and took a job. I quit a couple of months ago and now I'm just volunteering/partying a lot/not really doing shit.

[kershka]

I'm curious: for those definitely set on going KJD, what's the reasoning behind your decision?

I have a clear idea of what I want to do, and since I am lucky enough to not have any undergrad loans, working for a year or two just seems like I would be biding my time until I could go to school to get the job I actually want. If I had UG loans, this would probably be a completely different calculation.
eta: also, fear

This. Exactly this. It's like you're inside my head. I am so glad that a graduated without loans so that I can go straight to what I want to do rather than take a job I hate just to earn some cash.

Though if I get some amazing opportunity in the next few months, obviously I would be open to deferring for a year or two

[OliveBC]

so jealous of you guys without undergrad loans...although even with mine I'm not sure that taking time would be worth it, especially if I ended up only making 30K a year.

After taxes and necessities even if I paid as much as possible on my loans I'd still have to take 3+ years off to work to pay them off completely and I don't want to spend 3 years in a job I don't really enjoy.

[nothingtosee]

True or false KJD softs are, in general, inherently inferior, in that the person with work experience also was sorority vp, on the research journal board, and won an honors thesis award... And then worked three years.

It seems the discussion often seems either/or instead of yes/and.

[JazzieShizzle]

I don't know why you KJDs think you have such a disadvantage. I get the (perceived/actual) lack of experience/maturity. I do. BUT don't we all agree that numbers are most important to adcomms? I worked full time throughout undergrad and you better believe I was sipping on that Haterade while my grades slipped because I was legitimately too busy and/or too tired to do as well as I could have. When I was prepping for the LSAT I was chugging that Haterade thinking about how my LSAT scores will be compared to someone who did nothing but study for 6 months. I worked full time during the day then spent my nights and weekends at the library prepping. I'm positive I could have scored higher if I didn't work full time, but there's nothing I can do about that. And here we are now. While you're all applying to T20, I'm in the T2. Not for lack of intelligence or ability, but because I did not have the opportunity you all had. Count yourselves lucky.

[applelover]

Checking in.

[sherealcool]

Technically KJD, here. I've worked my way through school and have been financially independent since 18. I've had the typical internships/TA/research conference stuff. Would adcoms still perceive me as a "KJD"?

[Brettanomyces]

Checking in.

I had no idea you were K-JD.
You're having the best URM cycle I've ever seen.

[Kimikho]

I don't know why you KJDs think you have such a disadvantage. I get the (perceived/actual) lack of experience/maturity. I do. BUT don't we all agree that numbers are most important to adcomms? I worked full time throughout undergrad and you better believe I was sipping on that Haterade while my grades slipped because I was legitimately too busy and/or too tired to do as well as I could have. When I was prepping for the LSAT I was chugging that Haterade thinking about how my LSAT scores will be compared to someone who did nothing but study for 6 months. I worked full time during the day then spent my nights and weekends at the library prepping. I'm positive I could have scored higher if I didn't work full time, but there's nothing I can do about that. And here we are now. While you're all applying to T20, I'm in the T2. Not for lack of intelligence or ability, but because I did not have the opportunity you all had. Count yourselves lucky.

...none of us are saying we aren't lucky.

I am not one of them, but there are people ITT who worked full time while in UG. Don't be so quick to call people out.

[NYstate]

I don't know why you KJDs think you have such a disadvantage. I get the (perceived/actual) lack of experience/maturity. I do. BUT don't we all agree that numbers are most important to adcomms? I worked full time throughout undergrad and you better believe I was sipping on that Haterade while my grades slipped because I was legitimately too busy and/or too tired to do as well as I could have. When I was prepping for the LSAT I was chugging that Haterade thinking about how my LSAT scores will be compared to someone who did nothing but study for 6 months. I worked full time during the day then spent my nights and weekends at the library prepping. I'm positive I could have scored higher if I didn't work full time, but there's nothing I can do about that. And here we are now. While you're all applying to T20, I'm in the T2. Not for lack of intelligence or ability, but because I did not have the opportunity you all had. Count yourselves lucky.

If you can score higher, you should retake. Don't leave points on the table. If you chose not to, that is on you, not other applicants.

[Quest4Knowledge]

I was playing around with some of the data on the spreadsheets (thanks for pointing me in the right direction scoobers!) and found something else interesting re. softs.

As much as it's arbitrary, seems like users on TLS are pretty accurate in terms of ranking the value of their own softs.

The following is for accepted students from HLS:

Accepted: Below Average Average Above Average Highly Unique
LSAT 176.75 175.17 174.15 173.33
GPA 3.80 3.88 3.89 3.82

There doesn't seem to be that much of a relationship for GPA (my guess is largely due to sample size), but there's definitely a relationship for LSAT. I'm not sure if anything substantial can be made of this, but it is interesting that even though so many people say they have 'above average' softs, it seems like they're getting in with lower stats than those with 'average' softs.

[JazzieShizzle]

...none of us are saying we aren't lucky.

I am not one of them, but there are people ITT who worked full time while in UG. Don't be so quick to call people out.

I'm glad you already know you're lucky. Sounded like most people ITT are worried they are going to be looked down on because of their KJD status. I'm not saying that's never true, but I do think it's more of an advantage than you realize. Also, not calling people out. Are those who worked full time while in UG considered KJD? I always thought of KJD as those whose full time job was college and that's it.

If you can score higher, you should retake. Don't leave points on the table. If you chose not to, that is on you, not other applicants.

I wish it were that simple.
I'm obviously not blaming anyone else for my situation. I just want you KJDs to know that the grass is not much greener on the other side. Both groups bring different advantages and disadvantages to the table.