Non-ABA Law School Dean takes questions Forum

[20141023]

.

[MCL Law Dean]

We have a saying in the movement that we don’t trust anybody over 30.

ATTRIBUTION: JACK WEINBERG, twenty-four year old leader of the Free Speech Movement at the University of California, Berkeley, California, interview with San Francisco Chronicle reporter, c. 1965.

[ScottRiqui]

What's interesting, though, is that a lot of the non-URM applicants who end up at non-elite schools are often older, non-traditional students

A lot of that is self-selection. There's a reason why the median number of law school applications sent out by over-40 applicants is one. It's one thing to be 22 years old, single, and willing/able to chase prestige wherever you can find it, from California to New England. It's another thing entirely to have a working spouse, ties to your community, aging parents that you want to stay close to, kids that you don't want to yank out of high school, a good day job, or a house that you can't or don't want to sell.

In short, don't assume that non-trads at lower-ranked schools are there because no higher schools would take them. Of course, a non-trad still has to do his research and decide if attending the lower-ranked school makes sense (strong state school or at the very least, a school in the city where they want to practice, cost of attendance/debt, job prospects, etcetera).

[20141023]

.

[MCL Law Dean]

Regulus, Although your general premise is a reasonable question, you just can't get there with a data point of one.

Our data set of approximately 150 of our most recent students shows no correlation at all between age --> law school performance --> bar pass. Our LSAT data doesn't provide much guidance since we place less emphasis on it and as ScottRiqui correctly pointed out (for exactly the right reasons), our local older applicants are either attending MCL or not attending law school anywhere. They rarely take LSAT prep courses and are comfortable scoring the minimum to "check the box" on our LSAT requirement.

[Dr. Dre]

What's your opinion on UCI Law School and its affect on the California legal market?

[ScottRiqui]

Yeah, I'm aware that one must be careful not to assume causation where simple correlation or even mere coincidence might be at work, but the other number that you didn't mention is very telling in this case. Although the median number of applications sent out by people over 40 is indeed 1, the median LSAT of that same group is 144 - the lowest of any of the other (younger) age groups.

I think you run into the same correlation/causation uncertainty with this statistic. You can't say with any surety that the over-40 LSAT takers whose scores are distributed around a median of 144 would have had scores distributed around a median of 155 if they had taken it twenty years earlier. I think it's more probable that people with a high LSAT aptitude are more likely to take it earlier in life.

Unless they all just sat on the couch watching reality TV for twenty years, I simply don't believe that a group of people with a 64th-percentile median LSAT score at age 21 would have scores distributed around a 23rd-percentile median twenty years later.

[20141023]

.

[ScottRiqui]

True, but this kind of diverges from the point I was trying to make above, which was that it is unfair to attribute poor writing skills to age (more specifically, it is unfair that shitboomers claim that millennials cannot write).

Well, since the advent of tweeting, texting, emails and facebook posts, I can't think of a reason to believe that people's writing has gotten *better*. My wife's a high-school teacher, and I can vouch that her students' writing ability, on the whole, is atrocious. But, she's not teaching at either of the schools that she and I went to many years ago, and I don't think that she's teaching the same caliber of kids that we went to school with, so I'm not going to say that her experiences are evidence of a trend. It may be that before facebook, Twitter and Youtube comments, we simply weren't exposed to the written ramblings of the late teen/early twenty-somethings to the degree we are today.

[MCL Law Dean]

--LinkRemoved--

[ms9]

For 3.5 years of my career, I was fortunate to travel around the world to meet hiring and managing Partners At Law firms, and GC's and govt hiring authorities. They almost would always say the same thing. "If we hire a student of yours, and they write in text speak or if they are entitled, we won't hire again" (or some form of that like that). That refrain was so pervasive I wanted to walk into their office and say "Hey I wont get you an entitled student that writes like he/she is texting!" and she were it went from there.

All of that said, the article MCL Law Dean links (thanks for that), my guess is something very similar was written 50 years ago too, sans the one bullet point on web/text speak. In other words, each generation complains about the eloquence of the one after them , simply because language changes.

[MCL Law Dean]

What's your opinion on UCI Law School and its affect on the California legal market?

I would be hard pressed to say California needed another law school. Heck of a deal for those first classes who got a free-ride. In the long-run it probably will hurt the low performing SoCal schools such as LaVerne, Thomas Jefferson, and Whittier the most.

[MCL Law Dean]

http://chronicle.com/article/Why-We-Can ... he/131708/

MCL's approach is to be a law school that teaches, not just grades, writing.

[MCL Law Dean]

Update on MCLs employment survey. We have been hunting down our initial survey non-responders and now have 90% data for the reporting classes of 2010-2011-2012. We expect to finish this week with 95+% and I expect to post the revised employment data this Friday. Thanks to TLSers for the push. You set the challenge and I don't think we would have been quite as relentless without it.

I have updated our cumulative bar pass rates in preparation for our annual state bar accreditation report. Although we have not yet reached our goal of a 70% cumulative pass rate, our numbers continue to remain among the top of the group of 18 state-accredited law schools (and above the California ABA TTTs).

Monterey College of Law Bar Exam Results (as of February 2013 Exam)

Graduating
Year(s) . . . . . Taken (#) / Passed (#) / Passed (%)
2009-2013 . . . . . 70 . . . 47 . . . 67%
2008-2012 . . . . . 85 . . . 53 . . . 62%
2007-2011 . . . . . 89 . . . 58 . . . 65%
2006-2010 . . . . . 93 . . . 57 . . . 61%

[20141023]

.

[MCL Law Dean]

Regulus, welcome to the struggle as I work through the "apples to cumquats" comparisons between the CA ABA law schools and the CA State Bar law schools. We report one type of data and the ABA schools report a different type. However, looking at the numbers that are available, I think that it is fair to say that we would fall somewhere above the lowest ABA schools.

Our class of 2012 bar pass rate is 61% . . . a pass rate that is above four of the schools listed in your post.

. . . and on the first-time bar pass rates for the last four administrations of the California Bar exam, MCL's first-time pass rate has been higher than:

Feb 2013 - 5 CA ABA schools
July 2012 - 2 CA ABA schools
Feb 2012 - 6 CA ABA schools

and of course our very favorite . . .

July 2011 - 12 CA ABA schools!

Of course, this would not be mistaken for a sophisticated statistical comparison, but I think that it should be an adequate basis for an (admittedly biased) observation that we do better than the CA TTT law schools.

[shifty_eyed]

Regulus, welcome to the struggle as I work through the "apples to cumquats" comparisons between the CA ABA law schools and the CA State Bar law schools. We report one type of data and the ABA schools report a different type. However, looking at the numbers that are available, I think that it is fair to say that we would fall somewhere above the lowest ABA schools.

Our class of 2012 bar pass rate is 61% . . . a pass rate that is above four of the schools listed in your post.

. . . and on the first-time bar pass rates for the last four administrations of the California Bar exam, MCL's first-time pass rate has been higher than:

Feb 2013 - 5 CA ABA schools
July 2012 - 2 CA ABA schools
Feb 2012 - 6 CA ABA schools

and of course our very favorite . . .

July 2011 - 12 CA ABA schools!

Of course, this would not be mistaken for a sophisticated statistical comparison, but I think that it should be an adequate basis for an (admittedly biased) observation that we do better than the CA TTT law schools.

Which 2? Looking at this pdf http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals ... 2112_R.pdf and I see MCL had a 50% pass rate for July 2012. TJSL and La Verne had 52% and 53% respectively.

[MCL Law Dean]

Regulus, O' Regulus . . . here you go. Revised (now with 100% reporting for the graduating classes of 2009 through 2012.

MONTEREY COLLEGE OF LAW ALUMNI EMPLOYMENT SURVEY (2013)
Graduating Classes 2009-­2012
Number of Respondents . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75
Number of Surveys . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75
Percent Survey Responses . . . . . . . . . . . . 100%
% of Graduates . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .100%

Employment (9 months after graduation)
Employed . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 88%
Not employed, seeking work .. . . . . . . . . . . 5%
Not employed, not seeking work .. . . . . . . . 7%

Job Type/Job Status (9 months after graduation)
Bar Admission Required . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49%
JD Advantage . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17%
Remained in Pre-­Law School Job
- Other Professional . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20%
- Other Non-­Professional . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2%
Not employed, seeking work . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
Not employed, not seeking work . . . . . . . . 7%

Current Employment
Employed . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 91%
Not employed, seeking work . . . . . . . . . . . 1%
Not employed, not seeking work .. . . . . . . . 7%
Retired . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1%

Job Tenure
Full Time, long-­term . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 83%
Full Time, short-­term . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8%
Part­‐time . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9%

If Working in a Law Firm -­ Firm Size
Solo . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13%
2 to 10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 67%
11 to 25 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13%
26 to 50 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2%
51 to 100 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
More than 100 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0%

If Working in a Law Firm -­ What Type
Private Practice . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 74%
Public Agency . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14%
Non-­Profit Practice . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
In-­house Corporate . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2%
Academic . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%

If Working in a Law Firm/Public Agency -­ Position
Attorney . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 74%
Judicial Officer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0%
Paralegal/Law Clerk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16%
Administrator . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
Dean/Professor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%

[crestor]

Regulus, O' Regulus . . . here you go. Revised (now with 100% reporting for the graduating classes of 2009 through 2012.

MONTEREY COLLEGE OF LAW ALUMNI EMPLOYMENT SURVEY (2013)
Graduating Classes 2009-­2012
Number of Respondents . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75
Number of Surveys . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75
Percent Survey Responses . . . . . . . . . . . . 100%
% of Graduates . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .100%

Employment (9 months after graduation)
Employed . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 88%
Not employed, seeking work .. . . . . . . . . . . 5%
Not employed, not seeking work .. . . . . . . . 7%

Job Type/Job Status (9 months after graduation)
Bar Admission Required . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49%
JD Advantage . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17%
Remained in Pre-­Law School Job
- Other Professional . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20%
- Other Non-­Professional . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2%
Not employed, seeking work . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
Not employed, not seeking work . . . . . . . . 7%

Current Employment
Employed . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 91%
Not employed, seeking work . . . . . . . . . . . 1%
Not employed, not seeking work .. . . . . . . . 7%
Retired . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1%

Job Tenure
Full Time, long-­term . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 83%
Full Time, short-­term . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8%
Part­‐time . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9%

If Working in a Law Firm -­ Firm Size
Solo . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13%
2 to 10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 67%
11 to 25 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13%
26 to 50 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2%
51 to 100 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
More than 100 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0%

If Working in a Law Firm -­ What Type
Private Practice . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 74%
Public Agency . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14%
Non-­Profit Practice . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
In-­house Corporate . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2%
Academic . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%

If Working in a Law Firm/Public Agency -­ Position
Attorney . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 74%
Judicial Officer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0%
Paralegal/Law Clerk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16%
Administrator . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
Dean/Professor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%

in b4 regulus response

[MCL Law Dean]

Which 2? Looking at this pdf http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals ... 2112_R.pdf and I see MCL had a 50% pass rate for July 2012. TJSL and La Verne had 52% and 53% respectively.

Just goes to show that failure to proof your work leads to mistakes . . .

What I should have more carefully reported to make my point is that MCL equalled or beat California ABA first-time bar pass rates:

Feb 2013 - 5 CA ABA schools
July 2012 - 2 0 CA ABA schools
Feb 2012 - 6 11 CA ABA schools
July 2011 - 12 14 CA ABA schools!

I must have been counting with my shoes on.

[shifty_eyed]

Which 2? Looking at this pdf http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals ... 2112_R.pdf and I see MCL had a 50% pass rate for July 2012. TJSL and La Verne had 52% and 53% respectively.

Just goes to show that failure to proof your work leads to mistakes . . .

What I should have more carefully reported to make my point is that MCL equalled or beat California ABA first-time bar pass rates:

Feb 2013 - 5 CA ABA schools
July 2012 - 2 0 CA ABA schools
Feb 2012 - 6 11 CA ABA schools
July 2011 - 12 14 CA ABA schools!

I must have been counting with my shoes on.

The July 2011 and Feb 2012 numbers seem somewhat misleading considering only 5 MCL students took the bar for the first time for each administration.

Interestingly but possibly irrelevant, 18 MCL students were repeaters, and only 1 passed. That's a lower pass rate for all other CA ABA approved schools' students repeating the bar except for Stanford and Berkeley (who had the least amount of repeat takers at 1 and 6 respectively).

[MCL Law Dean]

. . . welcome to the struggle as I work through the "apples to cumquats" comparisons between the CA ABA law schools and the CA State Bar law schools.

. . . this would not be mistaken for a sophisticated statistical comparison, but I think that it should be an adequate basis for an (admittedly biased) observation that we do better than the CA TTT law schools.

shifty_eyed, I think that you are merely making my point.

[20141023]

.

[MCL Law Dean]

The NALP form looks like it would be easy to do and it would provide each of the four individual years that are included (2009-2012). I discussed with LST the idea of consolidating the most recent years because otherwise the cohorts are so small (appx. 20) that reporting percentages is a bit ridiculous. He agreed that consolidating might provide better reporting for the purpose of reflecting the big picture of graduate employment within a cohort of 75 that makes a little more sense for statistical purposes. Next week is the first week of school, so I may not get back to it right away, but I will respond.

[20141023]

.