OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT) Forum

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

How important do you guys think grades are for job success? I have a successful career before attending law school. I am early 30s and attending a strong regional (T40) where I've lived for several years. I'm married and my wife is from here. I met with the career services person who basically said not to worry too much about grades as long as I'm like top 1/3, because I have a good resume + ties to the region. I'm wondering what people think about this advice.

[dingbat]

How important do you guys think grades are for job success? I have a successful career before attending law school. I am early 30s and attending a strong regional (T40) where I've lived for several years. I'm married and my wife is from here. I met with the career services person who basically said not to worry too much about grades as long as I'm like top 1/3, because I have a good resume + ties to the region. I'm wondering what people think about this advice.

Don't worry about grades as long as you're top 1/3 - did said person minor in oxymorons?
That aside, the advice sounds good: top 1/3 + WE should get you a job from any semi-decent law school and attending a strong regional T40 generally means biglaw isn't gonna happen anyway

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

How important do you guys think grades are for job success? I have a successful career before attending law school. I am early 30s and attending a strong regional (T40) where I've lived for several years. I'm married and my wife is from here. I met with the career services person who basically said not to worry too much about grades as long as I'm like top 1/3, because I have a good resume + ties to the region. I'm wondering what people think about this advice.

Don't worry about grades as long as you're top 1/3 - did said person minor in oxymorons?
That aside, the advice sounds good: top 1/3 + WE should get you a job from any semi-decent law school and attending a strong regional T40 generally means biglaw isn't gonna happen anyway

well, I should amend and say I want big law or mid law litigation. the school I'm at has 10ish% big law, so I don't count that out by any means.

[dingbat]

If your school places about 10% you should aim for top 15%. Work experience gives you extra leeway, but is unlikely to perform miracle work without connections

[Icculus]

If your school places about 10% you should aim for top 15%. Work experience gives you extra leeway, but is unlikely to perform miracle work without connections

As a 30+ who just went through OCI I can say this advice is not necessarily true. Even with WE grades are still the number one factor in terms of getting a job. All firms have grade cutoffs for various schools, if you are not above that cut off odds are you will not get a firm offer. Big law has plenty of applicants to choose from, many who have work experience, if you were coming from a T14 I would say your WE would boost you over someone who has similar credentials without work experience, but in terms of a school that places 10% into big law, 15% may get get you there but you should be aiming top 10% all the way.

[pkt63]

If your school places about 10% you should aim for top 15%. Work experience gives you extra leeway, but is unlikely to perform miracle work without connections

As a 30+ who just went through OCI I can say this advice is not necessarily true. Even with WE grades are still the number one factor in terms of getting a job. All firms have grade cutoffs for various schools, if you are not above that cut off odds are you will not get a firm offer. Big law has plenty of applicants to choose from, many who have work experience, if you were coming from a T14 I would say your WE would boost you over someone who has similar credentials without work experience, but in terms of a school that places 10% into big law, 15% may get get you there but you should be aiming top 10% all the way.

+1. I have tons of applicable WE and I sold it hard and all my interviewers were super interested in it. I got a number of really great offers...but so did many of my classmates that are 23 with no WE. I don't really think I had much of an edge, ultimately.

[RightWingConspiracy]

I could not solve the last game and my average score from practice tests was 162~168. sometimes below 160 and sometimes 170. Is it still reasonable to say that a perfect score on games are fairly achievable? If so, I am retaking LSAT this coming June, see what happens to my score and decide.

Side story,

Today was the first day to meet my future parent-in-laws. According to my girlfriend, They have been very understanding about my passion for a legal career, quitting my job for LSAT and all that. But today, they were freaking out when I mentioned my plan to retake the LSAT. LSAT is ruining my life.

This decision is between you and your future wife to be. You may want to consider setting some boundaries now with the future in-laws. Tell them you appreciate their opinion, but you and [insert wife to be's name] will be making your decision between the two of you. You don't really have to justify it to them. You're both adults. Assuming your wife to be is supportive, this shouldn't be more than a two minute FYI to the future in-laws. Tell them what you're doing, thanks for their thoughts, but you'd be interested in hearing their opinion about [insert alternate topic here].

I am 30 and will be a 1L at the young tender age of 31, almost 32. I currently have a successful career in the military and my in-laws are trying to push their influence, via my wife, on how staying in the military for 20+ years is a better option. Well, I told them I am going because I have the passion and believe I can provide a better life for my family following law school. Not to mention, at a public law school I will have zero debt thanks to the Post-911 GI Bill. In-laws are a pain in the ass so my best remedy was just to shut them off, we never talk, and it has worked quite well.

[dingbat]

If your school places about 10% you should aim for top 15%. Work experience gives you extra leeway, but is unlikely to perform miracle work without connections

As a 30+ who just went through OCI I can say this advice is not necessarily true. Even with WE grades are still the number one factor in terms of getting a job. All firms have grade cutoffs for various schools, if you are not above that cut off odds are you will not get a firm offer. Big law has plenty of applicants to choose from, many who have work experience, if you were coming from a T14 I would say your WE would boost you over someone who has similar credentials without work experience, but in terms of a school that places 10% into big law, 15% may get get you there but you should be aiming top 10% all the way.

You should always aim for top student; that being beside the point, if 10% get biglaw, the grade cutoff is usually a bit lower (not a lot). Grades are the predominant factor, but having relevant work experience can nudge you a little bit higher, if you can get in front of someone who cares.

I probably should have said no lower than top 15% (being a minimum floor, rather than a goal to shoot for)

[ajax]

If your school places about 10% you should aim for top 15%. Work experience gives you extra leeway, but is unlikely to perform miracle work without connections

As a 30+ who just went through OCI I can say this advice is not necessarily true. Even with WE grades are still the number one factor in terms of getting a job. All firms have grade cutoffs for various schools, if you are not above that cut off odds are you will not get a firm offer. Big law has plenty of applicants to choose from, many who have work experience, if you were coming from a T14 I would say your WE would boost you over someone who has similar credentials without work experience, but in terms of a school that places 10% into big law, 15% may get get you there but you should be aiming top 10% all the way.

You should always aim for top student; that being beside the point, if 10% get biglaw, the grade cutoff is usually a bit lower (not a lot). Grades are the predominant factor, but having relevant work experience can nudge you a little bit higher, if you can get in front of someone who cares.

I probably should have said no lower than top 15% (being a minimum floor, rather than a goal to shoot for)

Well so far you have said you should always aim for top student and you have said you should aim for top 15%. You say a lot.

[dingbat]

Well so far you have said you should always aim for top student and you have said you should aim for top 15%. You say a lot.

Yes I do

Everyone should always shoot for top spot. Realistically, almost everybody, that won't happen. A better way to put it is to say you need to be at least X to have a chance at attaining your goal, based on the assumption that everyone will try to do their best. It's just easier to say "shoot for X%"

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

thanks for the advice/information. i'm definitely aiming to be the top student--it's not a matter of slacking off at all. I took a full ride with benefits at a strong regional school (I want to stay in region) over some money at a lower t14. the reason was basically that i'm older, the legal economy is not strong, and the prospect of $100-150k in debt just didn't seem worth it. some days I feel great because I like and understand the material, and I'm working hard. other days i feel like "holy shit, what if..." since I recognize grades are very important, and at the end of the day there are other people who are smart, everyone (basically) is working super hard, and I can see small factors (like what a prof decides to test) making a difference. I want big law/midlaw litigation so hopefully i can hit top 15% or higher. it seems like its a fine line between killing yourself working hard and being sure not to overdo it and burning out...various people have told me the worst scenario possible is to reach december and run out of gas before exams.

[kalvano]

How important do you guys think grades are for job success? I have a successful career before attending law school. I am early 30s and attending a strong regional (T40) where I've lived for several years. I'm married and my wife is from here. I met with the career services person who basically said not to worry too much about grades as long as I'm like top 1/3, because I have a good resume + ties to the region. I'm wondering what people think about this advice.

That's the worst advice I've ever heard. Well, not quite, but close.

Grades always matter. I'm at a very strong regional school in a huge market, and guess what? Top 1/3 doesn't mean shit. Grades are the first and most important thing in legal hiring.

[nygrrrl]

Grades always matter. I'm at a very strong regional school in a huge market, and guess what? Top 1/3 doesn't mean shit. Grades are the first and most important thing in legal hiring.

Yup. The thing about OCI is, you have to have the grades to get the screeners. Once you're in the room you have a chance to sell yourself, but grades matter. A lot.

[Icculus]

Grades always matter. I'm at a very strong regional school in a huge market, and guess what? Top 1/3 doesn't mean shit. Grades are the first and most important thing in legal hiring.

Yup. The thing about OCI is, you have to have the grades to get the screeners. Once you're in the room you have a chance to sell yourself, but grades matter. A lot.

Even at a lottery school you need the grades to get the CB.

[nygrrrl]

Grades always matter. I'm at a very strong regional school in a huge market, and guess what? Top 1/3 doesn't mean shit. Grades are the first and most important thing in legal hiring.

Yup. The thing about OCI is, you have to have the grades to get the screeners. Once you're in the room you have a chance to sell yourself, but grades matter. A lot.

Even at a lottery school you need the grades to get the CB.

[sparty99]

It's great that you have WE and when you actually land an interview people will be glad that you have it and you will want to sell that HARD, but make no mistake, the # 1 thing you should focus on is GRADES. That is ALL THEY CARE ABOUT.

Top 30% can probably get you interviews, but you will still interview w/ maybe a Partner. That Partner might like you and will recommend you. But he sits down at a taple with 8 other Partners who interviewed other canddiates at other schools. Now, your resume is 1 out of 8 and there are 4 Summer spots. Trust me, even at this point, they will be looking at grades - strongly.

.

[r6_philly]

I can say with decent confidence that at Penn, for the middle 1/3-1/2, personality/WE > grades when compared with other middle 1/3 students (or even a little bit beyond that range). But that could be because we don't use GPA and rank (I do like that system). But to counter that, the odds of getting CB/offers at the same firm don't seem to correlation greatly with people's grades -- firms can compare grades even without rank, so I think my assessment holds true mostly.

[JCFindley]

I could not solve the last game and my average score from practice tests was 162~168. sometimes below 160 and sometimes 170. Is it still reasonable to say that a perfect score on games are fairly achievable? If so, I am retaking LSAT this coming June, see what happens to my score and decide.

Side story,

Today was the first day to meet my future parent-in-laws. According to my girlfriend, They have been very understanding about my passion for a legal career, quitting my job for LSAT and all that. But today, they were freaking out when I mentioned my plan to retake the LSAT. LSAT is ruining my life.

This decision is between you and your future wife to be. You may want to consider setting some boundaries now with the future in-laws. Tell them you appreciate their opinion, but you and [insert wife to be's name] will be making your decision between the two of you. You don't really have to justify it to them. You're both adults. Assuming your wife to be is supportive, this shouldn't be more than a two minute FYI to the future in-laws. Tell them what you're doing, thanks for their thoughts, but you'd be interested in hearing their opinion about [insert alternate topic here].

I am 30 and will be a 1L at the young tender age of 31, almost 32. I currently have a successful career in the military and my in-laws are trying to push their influence, via my wife, on how staying in the military for 20+ years is a better option. Well, I told them I am going because I have the passion and believe I can provide a better life for my family following law school. Not to mention, at a public law school I will have zero debt thanks to the Post-911 GI Bill. In-laws are a pain in the ass so my best remedy was just to shut them off, we never talk, and it has worked quite well.

You can go to a LOT of private schools with zero debt as well.....

[kalvano]

I can say with decent confidence that at Penn, for the middle 1/3-1/2, personality/WE > grades when compared with other middle 1/3 students (or even a little bit beyond that range). But that could be because we don't use GPA and rank (I do like that system). But to counter that, the odds of getting CB/offers at the same firm don't seem to correlation greatly with people's grades -- firms can compare grades even without rank, so I think my assessment holds true mostly.

Penn is nothing like a regional school.

[r6_philly]

I can say with decent confidence that at Penn, for the middle 1/3-1/2, personality/WE > grades when compared with other middle 1/3 students (or even a little bit beyond that range). But that could be because we don't use GPA and rank (I do like that system). But to counter that, the odds of getting CB/offers at the same firm don't seem to correlation greatly with people's grades -- firms can compare grades even without rank, so I think my assessment holds true mostly.

Penn is nothing like a regional school.

Sorry, didn't imply that it works anywhere else, I just wanted to add that counter example.

[risa]

.

[gman1978]

hey all, just checking in. Worked like crazy all semester and took the exams. I got an A in legal writing, but none of the other grades are in. School starts on the 14th. I assume I probably did okay, but have no idea really since I didn't discuss exam answers with anyone and even if I did its hard to know. I typed a lot (2,000 words an hour about). When I took this scholarship at the school (which requires top 33% to keep an additional stipend, and the dean told me he knew of no one who hadn't kept it) I though at this point I would have much more secure feeling (like "I rocked it") but I really don't.

[spleenworship]

hey all, just checking in. Worked like crazy all semester and took the exams. I got an A in legal writing, but none of the other grades are in. School starts on the 14th. I assume I probably did okay, but have no idea really since I didn't discuss exam answers with anyone and even if I did its hard to know. I typed a lot (2,000 words an hour about). When I took this scholarship at the school (which requires top 33% to keep an additional stipend, and the dean told me he knew of no one who hadn't kept it) I though at this point I would have much more secure feeling (like "I rocked it") but I really don't.

Welcome to the second half of 1L, where illusions and security die and leave you bitter, pessimistic, and ready for OCI.

You probably did fine, but if you are like me the waiting will wear you down to a bitter core of white hot rage at the law school setup.

[gman1978]

hey all, just checking in. Worked like crazy all semester and took the exams. I got an A in legal writing, but none of the other grades are in. School starts on the 14th. I assume I probably did okay, but have no idea really since I didn't discuss exam answers with anyone and even if I did its hard to know. I typed a lot (2,000 words an hour about). When I took this scholarship at the school (which requires top 33% to keep an additional stipend, and the dean told me he knew of no one who hadn't kept it) I though at this point I would have much more secure feeling (like "I rocked it") but I really don't.

Welcome to the second half of 1L, where illusions and security die and leave you bitter, pessimistic, and ready for OCI.

You probably did fine, but if you are like me the waiting will wear you down to a bitter core of white hot rage at the law school setup.

It's extra frustrating because 1) i'm already an obsessive person 2) It's hard to get my thoughts off of grades 3) I'm applying to 1L summer positions and every firm/opportunity either has an explicit grade cut off or they won't make a decision until we have grades 4) because I don't yet have grades I have no idea how wide to cast my net.

So basically this is a nerve wracking time.

[spleenworship]

It's extra frustrating because 1) i'm already an obsessive person 2) It's hard to get my thoughts off of grades 3) I'm applying to 1L summer positions and every firm/opportunity either has an explicit grade cut off or they won't make a decision until we have grades 4) because I don't yet have grades I have no idea how wide to cast my net.

So basically this is a nerve wracking time.

Yes it is. I totally feel you as I was there almost exactly one year ago. Just breathe, and remember that after you get used to the abuse it gets way easier to take. Also remember that, for good or for bad, once 1L grades are done you have a pretty good idea of where u are going to stand for the next 2 years. Even of bad, that's at least something.