C/O 2016 median lsat/gpa/class size Forum

[FKASunny]

Naw bro, I'm all about dat T15 prestige whoring.

Is T16 gonna be a thing once Texas falls this year?

You shut your dirty mouth

Everyone knows UT is the one true 15th ranked school regardless of year to year fluctuations. At least I didn't claim it was a T14

Vandy's sitting on some pretty medians comparatively. Better than Cornell's and almost identical to Berk's. Not that that means anything, it's still fun to read tea leaves.

[stillwater]

Naw bro, I'm all about dat T15 prestige whoring.

Is T16 gonna be a thing once Texas falls this year?

You shut your dirty mouth

Everyone knows UT is the one true 15th ranked school regardless of year to year fluctuations. At least I didn't claim it was a T14

Vandy's sitting on some pretty medians comparatively. Better than Cornell's and almost identical to Berk's. Not that that means anything, it's still fun to read tea leaves.

Vandy really took it on the chin this year though, no?

[FKASunny]

Vandy really took it on the chin this year though, no?

Compared to their 169 median last year, sure, but 167 with a 169 75th is better than any of their peers, and they didn't cut class size.

[stillwater]

Vandy really took it on the chin this year though, no?

Compared to their 169 median last year, sure, but 167 with a 169 75th is better than any of their peers, and they didn't cut class size.

Vandy has always been strong but the truth remains that medians don't equate to hiring practices (as you no doubt know). So such fluctuations seem largely meaningless in the end.

[FKASunny]

Vandy really took it on the chin this year though, no?

Compared to their 169 median last year, sure, but 167 with a 169 75th is better than any of their peers, and they didn't cut class size.

Vandy has always been strong but the truth remains that medians don't equate to hiring practices (as you no doubt know). So such fluctuations seem largely meaningless in the end.

Of course. This is all just part of the fun of the rankings horse race.

[stillwater]

Vandy really took it on the chin this year though, no?

Compared to their 169 median last year, sure, but 167 with a 169 75th is better than any of their peers, and they didn't cut class size.

Vandy has always been strong but the truth remains that medians don't equate to hiring practices (as you no doubt know). So such fluctuations seem largely meaningless in the end.

Of course. This is all just part of the fun of the rankings horse race.

Capturing the imaginations of law students since 19__.

[TirantMartorell]

Maybe this has already been answered, but why did Washington and Lee go down so much? Refusal to give tuition discounts? Refusal to lower standards? Some other schools with similar employment information didn't drop as much.

Finally becoming as TTT as their employment stats IMO.

Seriously. Their class size is minuscule and they still can't get respectable stats.

truth of the matter is that in the 21st century people dont want to live in the sticks.

W&L had a larger than normal entering class in 2012. I think more people accepted their offer than they expected. So the drop from 2012 to 2013 was correction back closer to their traditional class size.

[isuperserial]

Finally becoming as TTT as their employment stats IMO.

Seriously. Their class size is minuscule and they still can't get respectable stats.

truth of the matter is that in the 21st century people dont want to live in the sticks.

W&L had a larger than normal entering class in 2012. I think more people accepted their offer than they expected. So the drop from 2012 to 2013 was correction back closer to their traditional class size.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wl

While what you say is true to an extent, 111 is still the smallest class compared to the past 3 years. The decrease in students is most likely more accurately attributed to the fact that less than 50% of the class of 2012 found jobs. That's pretty horrendous. When it comes to getting a job, Washington and Lee has been unable to compete with it's peers and people are starting to learn that.

[cannibal ox]

While what you say is true to an extent, 111 is still the smallest class compared to the past 3 years. The decrease in students is most likely more accurately attributed to the fact that less than 50% of the class of 2012 found jobs. That's pretty horrendous. When it comes to getting a job, Washington and Lee has been unable to compete with it's peers and people are starting to learn that.

When will the rankings reflect this? Probably not this year, since they threw money at applicants to maintain their median (164).

[BigZuck]

While what you say is true to an extent, 111 is still the smallest class compared to the past 3 years. The decrease in students is most likely more accurately attributed to the fact that less than 50% of the class of 2012 found jobs. That's pretty horrendous. When it comes to getting a job, Washington and Lee has been unable to compete with it's peers and people are starting to learn that.

When will the rankings reflect this? Probably not this year, since they threw money at applicants to maintain their median (164).

Since when did US News rankings properly reflect employment stats?

Your move, American University

[cannibal ox]

While what you say is true to an extent, 111 is still the smallest class compared to the past 3 years. The decrease in students is most likely more accurately attributed to the fact that less than 50% of the class of 2012 found jobs. That's pretty horrendous. When it comes to getting a job, Washington and Lee has been unable to compete with it's peers and people are starting to learn that.

When will the rankings reflect this? Probably not this year, since they threw money at applicants to maintain their median (164).

Since when did US News rankings properly reflect employment stats?

Your move, American University

A man can dream, though.. a man can dream.

[TirantMartorell]

truth of the matter is that in the 21st century people dont want to live in the sticks.

W&L had a larger than normal entering class in 2012. I think more people accepted their offer than they expected. So the drop from 2012 to 2013 was correction back closer to their traditional class size.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wl

While what you say is true to an extent, 111 is still the smallest class compared to the past 3 years. The decrease in students is most likely more accurately attributed to the fact that less than 50% of the class of 2012 found jobs. That's pretty horrendous. When it comes to getting a job, Washington and Lee has been unable to compete with it's peers and people are starting to learn that.

It's hard to tell what factor most contributes to a schools decrease in enrollment. A 10 person drop from 2011 to 2013 is not all that significant given the drops in class sizes at other schools.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Worth noting that past UT/UCLA/USC/Vandy, employment statistics within a particular USNWR tier are better correlated with location than with markets. To the extent that applicants use employment statistics at all to make their decisions, you'll see a shift away from "small-town" schools not because applicants don't want to spend three years there (although they may not want to) but because Biglaw doesn't want to recruit there. A big part of why schools like BC and Fordham outperform their rankings is that there are a relatively greater number of interviews conducted there.

It isn't hard to see why. Suppose you are a NYC firm with targets of top 10% for a T1 school. And suppose about a third of that won't interview with you (for self-selection reasons). If you go to Fordham, you are talking about doing ~30 interviews--definitely a worthy endeavor when it's right down the street. If you go to W&L, this is what, eight or nine potential interviewees? The odds that you'll even make an offer to one of that group are probably below 50-50, much less that it will actually be accepted. Getting to Lexington is then a two-hour flight plus a three-hour car ride. That's a giant hassle for a very small likelihood someone from W&L is actually going to join your firm. Remember, this is all time someone could be billing. And so understandably, many don't bother. W&L students can still send resumes and whatnot, but of course the chances of actually getting hired when you interview are exponentially greater. A lot of firms are only going to take those long trips if it turns into 75 interviews or so (like in Charlottesville or Durham).

[stillwater]

Worth noting that past UT/UCLA/USC/Vandy, employment statistics within a particular USNWR tier are better correlated with location than with markets. To the extent that applicants use employment statistics at all to make their decisions, you'll see a shift away from "small-town" schools not because applicants don't want to spend three years there (although they may not want to) but because Biglaw doesn't want to recruit there. A big part of why schools like BC and Fordham outperform their rankings is that there are a relatively greater number of interviews conducted there.

It isn't hard to see why. Suppose you are a NYC firm with targets of top 10% for a T1 school. And suppose about a third of that won't interview with you (for self-selection reasons). If you go to Fordham, you are talking about doing ~30 interviews--definitely a worthy endeavor when it's right down the street. If you go to W&L, this is what, eight or nine potential interviewees? The odds that you'll even make an offer to one of that group are probably below 50-50, much less that it will actually be accepted. Getting to Lexington is then a two-hour flight plus a three-hour car ride. That's a giant hassle for a very small likelihood someone from W&L is actually going to join your firm. Remember, this is all time someone could be billing. And so understandably, many don't bother. W&L students can still send resumes and whatnot, but of course the chances of actually getting hired when you interview are exponentially greater. A lot of firms are only going to take those long trips if it turns into 75 interviews or so (like in Charlottesville or Durham).

cogent, bro. cogent.

[BigZuck]

Worth noting that past UT/UCLA/USC/Vandy, employment statistics within a particular USNWR tier are better correlated with location than with markets. To the extent that applicants use employment statistics at all to make their decisions, you'll see a shift away from "small-town" schools not because applicants don't want to spend three years there (although they may not want to) but because Biglaw doesn't want to recruit there. A big part of why schools like BC and Fordham outperform their rankings is that there are a relatively greater number of interviews conducted there.

It isn't hard to see why. Suppose you are a NYC firm with targets of top 10% for a T1 school. And suppose about a third of that won't interview with you (for self-selection reasons). If you go to Fordham, you are talking about doing ~30 interviews--definitely a worthy endeavor when it's right down the street. If you go to W&L, this is what, eight or nine potential interviewees? The odds that you'll even make an offer to one of that group are probably below 50-50, much less that it will actually be accepted. Getting to Lexington is then a two-hour flight plus a three-hour car ride. That's a giant hassle for a very small likelihood someone from W&L is actually going to join your firm. Remember, this is all time someone could be billing. And so understandably, many don't bother. W&L students can still send resumes and whatnot, but of course the chances of actually getting hired when you interview are exponentially greater. A lot of firms are only going to take those long trips if it turns into 75 interviews or so (like in Charlottesville or Durham).

This is some pretty disgustingly virulent anti-Durham trolling. You know they have an airport there in Raleigh, right bro? The flight is only like an hour and a half tops and then maybe a half hour drive from the airport to Duke. I wouldn't say two hours is a "long trip"

[chuckbass]

Worth noting that past UT/UCLA/USC/Vandy, employment statistics within a particular USNWR tier are better correlated with location than with markets. To the extent that applicants use employment statistics at all to make their decisions, you'll see a shift away from "small-town" schools not because applicants don't want to spend three years there (although they may not want to) but because Biglaw doesn't want to recruit there. A big part of why schools like BC and Fordham outperform their rankings is that there are a relatively greater number of interviews conducted there.

It isn't hard to see why. Suppose you are a NYC firm with targets of top 10% for a T1 school. And suppose about a third of that won't interview with you (for self-selection reasons). If you go to Fordham, you are talking about doing ~30 interviews--definitely a worthy endeavor when it's right down the street. If you go to W&L, this is what, eight or nine potential interviewees? The odds that you'll even make an offer to one of that group are probably below 50-50, much less that it will actually be accepted. Getting to Lexington is then a two-hour flight plus a three-hour car ride. That's a giant hassle for a very small likelihood someone from W&L is actually going to join your firm. Remember, this is all time someone could be billing. And so understandably, many don't bother. W&L students can still send resumes and whatnot, but of course the chances of actually getting hired when you interview are exponentially greater. A lot of firms are only going to take those long trips if it turns into 75 interviews or so (like in Charlottesville or Durham).

This is some pretty disgustingly virulent anti-Durham trolling. You know they have an airport there in Raleigh, right bro? The flight is only like an hour and a half tops and then maybe a half hour drive from the airport to Duke. I wouldn't say two hours is a "long trip"

NYC to Durham is a "long trip." Anyways, you're missing the point that this doesn't apply to the T14.

[BigZuck]

Worth noting that past UT/UCLA/USC/Vandy, employment statistics within a particular USNWR tier are better correlated with location than with markets. To the extent that applicants use employment statistics at all to make their decisions, you'll see a shift away from "small-town" schools not because applicants don't want to spend three years there (although they may not want to) but because Biglaw doesn't want to recruit there. A big part of why schools like BC and Fordham outperform their rankings is that there are a relatively greater number of interviews conducted there.

It isn't hard to see why. Suppose you are a NYC firm with targets of top 10% for a T1 school. And suppose about a third of that won't interview with you (for self-selection reasons). If you go to Fordham, you are talking about doing ~30 interviews--definitely a worthy endeavor when it's right down the street. If you go to W&L, this is what, eight or nine potential interviewees? The odds that you'll even make an offer to one of that group are probably below 50-50, much less that it will actually be accepted. Getting to Lexington is then a two-hour flight plus a three-hour car ride. That's a giant hassle for a very small likelihood someone from W&L is actually going to join your firm. Remember, this is all time someone could be billing. And so understandably, many don't bother. W&L students can still send resumes and whatnot, but of course the chances of actually getting hired when you interview are exponentially greater. A lot of firms are only going to take those long trips if it turns into 75 interviews or so (like in Charlottesville or Durham).

This is some pretty disgustingly virulent anti-Durham trolling. You know they have an airport there in Raleigh, right bro? The flight is only like an hour and a half tops and then maybe a half hour drive from the airport to Duke. I wouldn't say two hours is a "long trip"

NYC to Durham is a "long trip." Anyways, you're missing the point that this doesn't apply to the T14.

No, no, I got the point, typical Mono authoritative tone and all

[pancho]

Why has Michigan fallen so much over the last 30-40 years? It used to be solidly in the T5. Now it's clinging to the T10.

ETA: And, for that matter, what changed at Duke from the 90s to the 00s? Or is it a relative thing?

[BigZuck]

Why has Michigan fallen so much over the last 30-40 years? It used to be solidly in the T5. Now it's clinging to the T10.

ETA: And, for that matter, what changed at Duke from the 90s to the 00s? Or is it a relative thing?

Probably some combination of the South rising again and people finally coming to realize that the Midwest truly is the worst.

Seriously though, I don't know. I think people usually argue that a large part of Michigan's prestige is with boomer judges but not sure if that can account for the ratings decline.

[jbagelboy]

Probably some combination of the South rising again and people finally coming to realize that the Midwest truly is the worst.

Lol. You make me laugh bro.

[04102014]

Why has Michigan fallen so much over the last 30-40 years? It used to be solidly in the T5. Now it's clinging to the T10.

ETA: And, for that matter, what changed at Duke from the 90s to the 00s? Or is it a relative thing?

They haven't, really. They've held steady in the lower half of the top ten since they were previously ranked second with different criteria. Their employment stats are comparable to UVA when you factor in school-funded jerbs. It's a TLS myth.

[Tiago Splitter]

Why has Michigan fallen so much over the last 30-40 years? It used to be solidly in the T5. Now it's clinging to the T10.

ETA: And, for that matter, what changed at Duke from the 90s to the 00s? Or is it a relative thing?

They haven't, really. They've held steady in the lower half of the top ten since they were previously ranked second with different criteria. Their employment stats are comparable to UVA when you factor in school-funded jerbs. It's a TLS myth.

I'm not sure it's a myth. You're right that in the old US News rankings from 1987 Michigan was top 3 and hasn't been that high since, but there is a consensus that back in the 60's Michigan was universally considered a top 5 law school, which is what the question seemed to be getting at.

[04102014]

Why has Michigan fallen so much over the last 30-40 years? It used to be solidly in the T5. Now it's clinging to the T10.

ETA: And, for that matter, what changed at Duke from the 90s to the 00s? Or is it a relative thing?

They haven't, really. They've held steady in the lower half of the top ten since they were previously ranked second with different criteria. Their employment stats are comparable to UVA when you factor in school-funded jerbs. It's a TLS myth.

I'm not sure it's a myth. You're right that in the old US News rankings from 1987 Michigan was top 3 and hasn't been that high since, but there is a consensus that back in the 60's Michigan was universally considered a top 5 law school, which is what the question seemed to be getting at.

Everyone was high in the 60s. HTH.

[cotiger]

Why has Michigan fallen so much over the last 30-40 years? It used to be solidly in the T5. Now it's clinging to the T10.

ETA: And, for that matter, what changed at Duke from the 90s to the 00s? Or is it a relative thing?

They haven't, really. They've held steady in the lower half of the top ten since they were previously ranked second with different criteria. Their employment stats are comparable to UVA when you factor in school-funded jerbs. It's a TLS myth.

Since 1990, Michigan has been on a consistent, though slow, slide down the USNWR from 6 to 9. Nothing too drastic, but you can definitely spot a trend.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... SlE&gid=45

[04102014]

Why has Michigan fallen so much over the last 30-40 years? It used to be solidly in the T5. Now it's clinging to the T10.

ETA: And, for that matter, what changed at Duke from the 90s to the 00s? Or is it a relative thing?

They haven't, really. They've held steady in the lower half of the top ten since they were previously ranked second with different criteria. Their employment stats are comparable to UVA when you factor in school-funded jerbs. It's a TLS myth.

Since 1990, Michigan has been on a consistent, though slow, slide down the USNWR from 6 to 9. Nothing too drastic, but you can definitely spot a trend.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... SlE&gid=45

Oh, I don't dispute that they've dropped in the rankings a bit, although they were #7 just a few years ago. I just don't think they're undergoing some kind of precipitous decline, like some people on TLS (although not necessarily ITT) suggest. I think their movement has more to do with the relatively recent (re)emergence of schools like Chicago, Penn, and UVA than anything else. Although I guess it's all relative in the end.