Was this a bad cycle for splitters and T14? Forum

[Burlington4174]

That's a good question. Nothing too ambitious. want to go with little debt so i can save a ton once i go into big-law, then exit and start my own small practice in the pacific northwest, hopefully affording me more flexibility for traveling and enjoying life than a big-law lifer career would allow. but really not sure. I don't want to work in New York City tbh, COL is too high, and I'm not really a huge city person; I'll definitely be attempting to get Big-Law in Northern California or Texas(I have ties to both), and I like the idea of working in Portland too.
From a non-career standpoint, schools with sports and those that have a true campus appeal to me. NU law is off-campus which is a negative for me, similarly, this is why NYU has little appeal to me. Columbia and Duke have great campuses. Duke probably being the one I would like the most because of the sports and opportunities for hiking etc right outside the campus. I would love to experience and explore new york too(I'm from the west coast).
I realize this may be a naive or superfluous consideration though lol. I had both of these qualities in my undergrad and I should be more concerned with career stuff when choosing a law school.

Thanks for replying and allowing me to share my thoughts!

Those sound like pretty reasonable goals that can be achieved from a lot of the schools you're likely to get offers from this cycle.

But I think you may be getting a little blinded by rankings and other less important factors (like the campus, etc.). If you don't want to work in New York, then I can't see Columbia or Duke being a good fit for you, since they both place heavily in NYC. And in the case of Columbia, you'd be living there.

If you want biglaw in Northern California, then Berkeley is obviously your best choice. But as someone mentioned, you have a shot at some really good money from Northwestern if you ED there, and your GPA might hold you back from similar offers elsewhere. That's not a guarantee, but it's something to consider during your cycle. And since you already have connections in the regions you want to work in, I think that it would be reasonable for you to go to a school that doesn't traditionally place a lot of people in those regions (likely due to self-selection).

Just to reiterate, though: don't pay so much attention to USNWR rankings, and definitely don't look at things like campuses or hiking opportunities. Focus on whether the school can get you the job you want without putting you in too much debt to reasonably pay off.

Columbia offers a much, much better change of a BigLaw job than Northwestern. You are skipping over that point.

[cavalier1138]

Columbia offers a much, much better change of a BigLaw job than Northwestern. You are skipping over that point.

Is a 10% difference in BL+FC numbers (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=262376) a "much, much better chance" of biglaw? Or is it just a marginally better chance?

The poster in question is not likely to receive a significant scholarship offer from CLS because of their GPA. But applying ED to Northwestern gives them close to a full ride. For me, that's enough to make up the difference in biglaw numbers.

[Burlington4174]

Columbia offers a much, much better change of a BigLaw job than Northwestern. You are skipping over that point.

Is a 10% difference in BL+FC numbers (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=262376) a "much, much better chance" of biglaw? Or is it just a marginally better chance?

The poster in question is not likely to receive a significant scholarship offer from CLS because of their GPA. But applying ED to Northwestern gives them close to a full ride. For me, that's enough to make up the difference in biglaw numbers.

I regretted using "much, much" better the moment I posted it, so I will happily walk that back a bit. But to suggest that a difference of 13% is only a marginal difference is absurd. (Note that 13% is the average difference over the last five years, and probably more representative.) A 13% difference in BL + FC placement alone is worth at least $20,000 and possibly a lot more. And when you take into account the fact that Columbia students go to better firms on average as well, and correspondingly have better exit options, the value of Columbia over Northwestern grows.

I am most definitely not trying to argue that Columbia is always the better option, but the picture you are painting is too black and white. The placement power of the two schools is measurably different and worth considering more than you were suggesting.

Edit: Also, to the point of placement power, Columbia far out performs NU when it comes to PI placement, both more generally and with respect to competitive fellowships (see http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... yment+data).

[CambrianExplosives]

Columbia offers a much, much better change of a BigLaw job than Northwestern. You are skipping over that point.

Is a 10% difference in BL+FC numbers (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=262376) a "much, much better chance" of biglaw? Or is it just a marginally better chance?

The poster in question is not likely to receive a significant scholarship offer from CLS because of their GPA. But applying ED to Northwestern gives them close to a full ride. For me, that's enough to make up the difference in biglaw numbers.

I regretted using "much, much" better the moment I posted it, so I will happily walk that back a bit. But to suggest that a difference of 13% is only a marginal difference is absurd. (Note that 13% is the average difference over the last five years, and probably more representative.) A 13% difference in BL + FC placement alone is worth at least $20,000 and possibly a lot more. And when you take into account the fact that Columbia students go to better firms on average as well, and correspondingly have better exit options, the value of Columbia over Northwestern grows.

I am most definitely not trying to argue that Columbia is always the better option, but the picture you are painting is too black and white. The placement power of the two schools is measurably different and worth considering more than you were suggesting.

Edit: Also, to the point of placement power, Columbia far out performs NU when it comes to PI placement, both more generally and with respect to competitive fellowships (see http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... yment+data).

While I agree with you in general, I don't think we can easily ignore the self selection of people taking JD advantage jobs from Northwestern. This isn't something I would say for many schools, but if you look at the salary information from Northwestern you can seem that at least 75% of those JD advantage jobs are paying over 100k. I think that there is a lot of people going into those positions from Northwestern on purpose instead of trying for biglaw who may have been higher in GPA so you may have a better chance from Northwestern than their straight BL+FC would imply.

Again, this doesn't discount what you are saying, but it is something to note about Northwestern.

[gsy987]

I'm curious what you guys think of my cycle! I'm pretty happy with my end result..but I don't think I had an amazing cycle by any stretch:

Stats: 169/3.3

Accepted:
-NW
-Michigan (half tuition scholarship..but after some negotiation. Also where I decided to go.)

WL'ed:
-Gtown (priority waitlisted... still kind of mystified about this one)
-Cornell
-UVA
-Penn
-Duke

Rejected:
-Harvard (I know it was a complete longshot... but fuck it, I wanted to apply to goddamned Harvard.)
-U of Chicago
-NYU

When did you submit your apps?

Pretty early! I had them all in by the end of November.

[sluggla]

I'm curious what you guys think of my cycle! I'm pretty happy with my end result..but I don't think I had an amazing cycle by any stretch:

Stats: 169/3.3

Accepted:
-NW
-Michigan (half tuition scholarship..but after some negotiation. Also where I decided to go.)

WL'ed:
-Gtown (priority waitlisted... still kind of mystified about this one)
-Cornell
-UVA
-Penn
-Duke

Rejected:
-Harvard (I know it was a complete longshot... but fuck it, I wanted to apply to goddamned Harvard.)
-U of Chicago
-NYU

When did you submit your apps?

Pretty early! I had them all in by the end of November.

Cool beans! I'm hoping for a similar outcome with with similar numbers this upcoming cycle.

Also I read yours posts as though Tom Haverford wrote them.

[Gcl52]

.

[hellohalo]

I obviously can't speak for other people and don't have data from this cycle at large, but I had the exact same thing happen to me. Pretty normal splitter, nothing extreme or anything, and I got accepted to a school right in the middle of the T-14 and waitlisted to 8 others, 4 above it and 4 below it. So for the sake of my already slightly damaged self-esteem I'm telling myself it was a bad cycle for splitters!

Edit: Realized I should've included my stats, they're 3.6 - 172.

wow 3.6 and 172 is a splitter?
How do we define a splitter?

[Dcc617]

GPA: 3.6
LSAT: 168
1 yr WE
Classics major from a California State University

In: Berkeley (no $)
WL: Columbia, Cornell, UVA, Georgetown, Stanford,
Out: Penn

side note: UT Austin with $$$ but am considering retake and reapply especially because I applied late (mid Feb)

edit: URM (Mexican female)

I think you should definitely reapply. As a URM with that LSAT you would probably be in the running for Harvard and big scholarships down the line if you apply earlier.

[cavalier1138]

I obviously can't speak for other people and don't have data from this cycle at large, but I had the exact same thing happen to me. Pretty normal splitter, nothing extreme or anything, and I got accepted to a school right in the middle of the T-14 and waitlisted to 8 others, 4 above it and 4 below it. So for the sake of my already slightly damaged self-esteem I'm telling myself it was a bad cycle for splitters!

Edit: Realized I should've included my stats, they're 3.6 - 172.

wow 3.6 and 172 is a splitter?
How do we define a splitter?

<25th for GPA and >75th for LSAT

3.6 is right at or below the 25th percentile for the T14. So the OP isn't a strong splitter, but they're a splitter nonetheless.

[Chuk_churuk]

Without reading all posts, I'll opine that this cycle was competitive in general. You can see the data on LSACs website: test taking is up.