Official Foreign Applicants Thread 2011-2012 Forum

[mjitbswyd]

I just bought the USNEWS law school report and see that only 0.5% of Harvard's student body is "international".. But for Yale it's 5.1%.

I don't know what does "international" mean to USNEWS. Harvard say they have 11% non-US citizens, which obviously includes US undergrads. Does the 0.5% mean they only admit about 4 true internationals each year?

Wow. Canadians probably account for a large part of the discrepancy. I'm betting USNews doesn't consider Canadians "internationals," since they have GPAs that count, like Americans. It wouldn't surprise me if 5-6% of the students at Harvard are Canadians, given the large number of Canadians on the Harvard thread.

But Canadians can't account for the entire 10.5% difference between the numbers. I can only see two possible explanations:

1) USNews doesn't consider US permanent residents "internationals," but Harvard does. I doubt this is the explanation, though, as it's unlikely there would be that many US permanent residents at Harvard. Permanent residents seem very uncommon on this board, and permanent residents usually get citizenship quickly.

2) USNews doesn't consider US educated foreigners "internationals," but Harvard does. This makes much more sense. After all, the schools would report GPAs for these students to USNews, just like Americans, so perhaps USNews can't even tell apart Americans and US educated foreigners.

Unless there is just some kind of mistake in the numbers. 0.5% seems incredibly small - although we do have good evidence that they're extremely picky with foreign-educated internationals.

I'm sure there are more than 4 true internationals in harvard - there are at least 2 or 3 TI student from a single counrtry last year. When I say "for fun" I meant for fun. Just cant understand how can they make such mistake.

[JosephusMyer]

I just bought the USNEWS law school report and see that only 0.5% of Harvard's student body is "international".. But for Yale it's 5.1%.

I don't know what does "international" mean to USNEWS. Harvard say they have 11% non-US citizens, which obviously includes US undergrads. Does the 0.5% mean they only admit about 4 true internationals each year?

Wow. Canadians probably account for a large part of the discrepancy. I'm betting USNews doesn't consider Canadians "internationals," since they have GPAs that count, like Americans. It wouldn't surprise me if 5-6% of the students at Harvard are Canadians, given the large number of Canadians on the Harvard thread.

But Canadians can't account for the entire 10.5% difference between the numbers. I can only see two possible explanations:

1) USNews doesn't consider US permanent residents "internationals," but Harvard does. I doubt this is the explanation, though, as it's unlikely there would be that many US permanent residents at Harvard. Permanent residents seem very uncommon on this board, and permanent residents usually get citizenship quickly.

2) USNews doesn't consider US educated foreigners "internationals," but Harvard does. This makes much more sense. After all, the schools would report GPAs for these students to USNews, just like Americans, so perhaps USNews can't even tell apart Americans and US educated foreigners.

Unless there is just some kind of mistake in the numbers. 0.5% seems incredibly small - although we do have good evidence that they're extremely picky with foreign-educated internationals.

Are the Harvard website stats definitely for JD only? If they included LLMs, that would massively inflate the international numbers.

[rotaxkarter]

Anyone else in at Chicago? In previous years, they seem to have been very picky with internationals.

Has anyone got a decision from Harvard, besides mjitbswyd and dean? Harvard seems to be sitting on a lot of international applicants - I'm betting we'll all get decisions at the same time.

Congrats Phil! I didn't apply for Chicago (may apply for its transfer in May), but I think it might be better than Columbia for you (considering you have a phd).

I think curiouscat and rotaxkarter are internationals and they get held today.

Haven't really dropped in this thread, yes to both, WL by UChi/Held by H and Canadian.

[rotaxkarter]

Congrats Phil! I didn't apply for Chicago (may apply for its transfer in May), but I think it might be better than Columbia for you (considering you have a phd).

I think curiouscat and rotaxkarter are internationals and they get held today.

Yup, Canadian, held at HLS. In at Chicago as well. I have no idea if it's my status as an international that got me held at Harvard, or something else in my application. I'm trying to figure out the reasons why Harvard might be a little hesitant with Canadian applicants, so that I can try to address those concerns in my LOCI. Kind of confused about this, though. I mean, would it help if I demonstrated why moving to the States would be feasible for me? Should I elaborate on why I want to practice in the US? Do I need to explain how I'm planning to finance my education? I'm clutching at straws here.

This is relevant to my interests

[isabelleren]

I'm also an international student and replied really late due to some personal circumstances (just sent out the applications). How bad will this hurt me? Does it usually take longer for international students to hear back from the schools once the file is complete?

Thanks for any thoughts!

[AntipodeanPhil]

I'm sure there are more than 4 true internationals in harvard - there are at least 2 or 3 TI students from a single country last year. When I say "for fun" I meant for fun. Just can't understand how can they make such a mistake.

Oh, whoops. Although, are those students in the JD program?

The only information I have comes from spending too much time on LSN and TLS - where there seem to be hardly any foreign educated applicants accepted to Harvard.

I'm also an international student and replied really late due to some personal circumstances (just sent out the applications). How bad will this hurt me? Does it usually take longer for international students to hear back from the schools once the file is complete?

The accepted wisdom on TLS is that applying in January puts one at a slight disadvantage at many schools, but with applicant numbers down so much this year, you might be alright.

IMO, it would probably only be worth applying again early next cycle if you get waitlisted or held and then rejected by your dream school this cycle. A waitlist or hold tells you that you are close, and applying early next cycle might then make the difference.

[isabelleren]

Thanks AntipodeanPhil so much for replying fast. Btw how/where to know that the application number is down this year? and for international students in particular?

[JosephusMyer]

Do you reckon they take longer to process true international apps? I sent mine to Harvard on Jan 2nd, and still not yet UR. Maybe they're batching internationals together?

[AntipodeanPhil]

Thanks AntipodeanPhil so much for replying fast. Btw how/where to know that the application number is down this year? and for international students in particular?

The number of people taking the LSAT for this cycle has dropped substantially - around 15%, I believe, following a smaller decrease last year. So, although no one knows that applicant numbers are down this year, it seems highly likely. There is no evidence that the number of international applicants has dropped, as far as I am aware, but the thought is that if the number of general applicants drops, that will help internationals, as schools can use us to prop up their LSAT medians (we have generally underperformed our LSAT scores in prior cycles).

[JosephusMyer]

Do you reckon they take longer to process true international apps? I sent mine to Harvard on Jan 2nd, and still not yet UR. Maybe they're batching internationals together?

Just went UR at HLS (today) and complete at YLS (yesterday). Nervous couple of weeks coming up.

[AntipodeanPhil]

Do you reckon they take longer to process true international apps? I sent mine to Harvard on Jan 2nd, and still not yet UR. Maybe they're batching internationals together?

Just went UR at HLS (today) and complete at YLS (yesterday). Nervous couple of weeks coming up.

I don't mean to be a buzz-kill, but imo you will likely be waiting longer than that for any kind of decision from Harvard, and longer still for a decision from Yale, even if it is all good news.

The only people who get quick decisions from Yale seem to be US students with amazing numbers (mostly Ivy grads). My guess is that all internationals go through Yale's faculty review process.

And Harvard has been holding almost all internationals this cycle - even internationals with very good LSAT numbers.

[mjitbswyd]

Just went UR at HLS (today) and complete at YLS (yesterday). Nervous couple of weeks coming up.

I don't mean to be a buzz-kill, but imo you will likely be waiting longer than that for any kind of decision from Harvard, and longer still for a decision from Yale, even if it is all good news.

The only people who get quick decisions from Yale seem to be US students with amazing numbers (mostly Ivy grads). My guess is that all internationals go through Yale's faculty review process.

And Harvard has been holding almost all internationals this cycle - even internationals with very good LSAT numbers.[/quote]
I might be wrong, but according to LSN, it seems that most US students who got in in Dec went through faculty review. Last year, if you submitted the application before Nov, the only chance you will be getting an AD is the Dec wave. Of course, this may not apply to internationals..

[bk641]

Do you reckon they take longer to process true international apps? I sent mine to Harvard on Jan 2nd, and still not yet UR. Maybe they're batching internationals together?

Just went UR at HLS (today) and complete at YLS (yesterday). Nervous couple of weeks coming up.

I don't mean to be a buzz-kill, but imo you will likely be waiting longer than that for any kind of decision from Harvard, and longer still for a decision from Yale, even if it is all good news.

The only people who get quick decisions from Yale seem to be US students with amazing numbers (mostly Ivy grads). My guess is that all internationals go through Yale's faculty review process.

And Harvard has been holding almost all internationals this cycle - even internationals with very good LSAT numbers.

phil, did you ever hear back after your KB1? i just got held... which according to tls wisdom is basically a soft ding/wl.

[AntipodeanPhil]

phil, did you ever hear back after your KB1? i just got held... which according to tls wisdom is basically a soft ding/wl.

It's not quite that bad. Some holds will get accepted between now and April, even if only a minority. I'm still hopeful some of us will be accepted to preserve Harvard's LSAT median as the drop in applicant numbers becomes clearer (almost 17% so far this cycle, according to an ABA claim).

I got held also, earlier this week. I think the chances for KB1/holds are fairly good if one is willing to ride out the waitlist, so I'm not too upset. I was held by Penn the day before, alas, and I have no idea what my chances are there.

[curiouscat]

I was held by Penn the day before, alas, and I have no idea what my chances are there.

Now, that's surprising. I would have thought that with your LSAT and WE, Penn was just about a lock. Is Penn typically less friendly to non-numerical GPAs?

[AntipodeanPhil]

I was held by Penn the day before, alas, and I have no idea what my chances are there.

Now, that's surprising. I would have thought that with your LSAT and WE, Penn was just about a lock. Is Penn typically less friendly to non-numerical GPAs?

I believe so - perhaps second only to Chicago outside HYS (although Penn is very picky in general, of course, since it has such a small class). Here, for example, are a couple of non-Canadian internationals from last cycle who were accepted to higher-ranked schools but WLed by Penn:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/pushingdaisies
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/jman77

I always thought Chicago was even tougher for internationals, though, so in that respect I am surprised. Anyway, congratulations on Penn AND Chicago - that would be a tough choice for me. They're both schools with amazing employment prospects

PS: your avatar looks exactly like my parents' cat around the time it adopted them. Cutest cat ever.

[mjitbswyd]

Anyway, congratulations on Penn AND Chicago - that would be a tough choice for me. They're both schools with amazing employment prospects.

I'm surprised. I thought this would be an easy choice for someone with a phd.

[curiouscat]

I believe so - perhaps second only to Chicago outside HYS (although Penn is very picky in general, of course, since it has such a small class). Here, for example, are a couple of non-Canadian internationals from last cycle who were accepted to higher-ranked schools but WLed by Penn:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/pushingdaisies
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/jman77

True - though internationals aren't the only ones that end up on Penn's waitlist with high numbers, so numbers-based YP might be a relevant factor in those cases as well.

I always thought Chicago was even tougher for internationals, though, so in that respect I am surprised. Anyway, congratulations on Penn AND Chicago - that would be a tough choice for me. They're both schools with amazing employment prospects

PS: your avatar looks exactly like my parents' cat around the time it adopted them. Cutest cat ever.

Thanks! And that cat is almost the spitting image of mine too. Any cat close to that definitely deserves a spot in the "cutest cat ever" category.

[BKB]

Anyone got CLS?

[AntipodeanPhil]

Anyone got CLS?

The website trick people are talking about on the Columbia thread works for me, but I'm going to be sceptical until I see the vomit in my mailbox.

If Columbia follows its standard practice, though, almost everyone on this thread with a score over 171 should be in - and some below that.

[BKB]

Anyone got CLS?

The website trick people are talking about on the Columbia thread works for me, but I'm going to be sceptical until I see the vomit in my mailbox.

If Columbia follows its standard practice, though, almost everyone on this thread with a score over 171 should be in - and some below that.

I don't any reason you are not in. Congrats! You'll have to face the sweet dilemma to choose between Chicago and Columbia (and other great schools!).
The enrolling thing doesn't work for me. Now I believe a WL is ahead.

[Nulli Secundus]

Anyone got CLS?

The website trick people are talking about on the Columbia thread works for me, but I'm going to be sceptical until I see the vomit in my mailbox.

If Columbia follows its standard practice, though, almost everyone on this thread with a score over 171 should be in - and some below that.

Meh, wish Columbia had some loan options that did not need US citizen cosigners or scholarships for internationals

[fingerscrossedxx]

Anyone got CLS?

The website trick people are talking about on the Columbia thread works for me, but I'm going to be sceptical until I see the vomit in my mailbox.

If Columbia follows its standard practice, though, almost everyone on this thread with a score over 171 should be in - and some below that.

Meh, wish Columbia had some loan options that did not need US citizen cosigners or scholarships for internationals

THIS THIS THIS THIS. I got in last year and had to withdraw because I had no us-cosigner. Now I'm applying again but really, not sure what the difference is. Columbia is awesome but for this.

[bk641]

Anyone got CLS?

The website trick people are talking about on the Columbia thread works for me, but I'm going to be sceptical until I see the vomit in my mailbox.

If Columbia follows its standard practice, though, almost everyone on this thread with a score over 171 should be in - and some below that.

didn't wake up early enough to try the website trick, didn't get a decision email yet. it's weird, they didn't do emails even for internationals two years ago, but i guess things have changed. emails for acceptances only, possibly?

edit: also WLed at Penn and UVa, but kinda expected it given their tendency to YP and not really looking at internationals. not writing the why penn/uva essays also hurt, too.

[BKB]

Anyone got CLS?

The website trick people are talking about on the Columbia thread works for me, but I'm going to be sceptical until I see the vomit in my mailbox.

If Columbia follows its standard practice, though, almost everyone on this thread with a score over 171 should be in - and some below that.

Meh, wish Columbia had some loan options that did not need US citizen cosigners or scholarships for internationals

THIS THIS THIS THIS. I got in last year and had to withdraw because I had no us-cosigner. Now I'm applying again but really, not sure what the difference is. Columbia is awesome but for this.

This. BTW, are there any schools other than HYS that offer institutional loans？