Please rank Florida Law Schools for me. Forum

[drummerboy]

to feel the heat. im luckily getting complete support for books, room, and board no matter where i attend. however, i will have to take loans out for tuition at both. at stetson, however, im getting 10k a year. i asked for more but im still waiting. hence, miami is more expensive, but is that the only reason not to attend? And yes, im still on hold for both UF/FSU but if one of those dont come thru ill be either going to stetson or miami. this is why i have been so tenacious about uncovering the difference between the 2. and no, retake not an option if i still want to secure my living expenses and books that i previously alluded to. thanks for all your help and concern.

[RockyIII]

Just so everyone knows, Ave Maria moved from Michigan to Florida within the last 2 years. That's why the have all the stats about the Michigan Bar. Doesn't matter though, because it isn't worth attending no matter what state it's in.

[JusticeHarlan]

Just so everyone knows, Ave Maria moved from Michigan to Florida within the last 2 years. That's why the have all the stats about the Michigan Bar. Doesn't matter though, because it isn't worth attending no matter what state it's in.

Here's a great piece on how that happened, for those interested. It has to do with building a crucifix the size of the Statute of Liberty (true story):

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/colleg ... he_sky.php

Some choice quotes from the last page of the article:

Since [a board member who opposed Monaghan's] ouster, the law school has been in a freefall. Most of the original faculty have fled or been pushed out, and the quality of the students has tumbled. One current professor told me, “Our student body now is one of the four or five worst in America.” The instability has also wreaked havoc on the school’s reputation: in the 2009 U.S. News & World Report law school rankings, Ave Maria tied for last place in the peer-assessment category, the most important measure in determining a school’s standing. (The school was not officially ranked because U.S. News doesn’t rank schools that land in the bottom tier.) Meanwhile, there are signs that Monaghan’s foundation, which funds the law school and the university, is on the verge of running out of money, in part because Monaghan bet his fortune—and the future of his nonprofits—on the now-crumbling Florida real estate market. Earlier this year, Ave Maria University’s second-longest-standing professor resigned, but not before sending a letter to administrators expressing his alarm at the school’s financial straits. “I fear that all of us (to different degrees) are participating in something that we may later deeply regret,” he wrote, “namely selling to young people and their families [an] educational product that we do not have sufficient reason to believe can be delivered.”

Meanwhile, in June, the U.S. Department of Education reported that Ave Maria School of Law had failed its financial responsibility test, the only law school in the nation to do so. Even more troubling, the school ranked sixth to last among all American institutions of higher learning on the department’s financial responsibility index, thanks partly to its multimillion-dollar deficit. With its finances in disarray, the school has shelved plans for the $30 million building across from Mansion Row. When Ave Maria School of Law finally opened for business in Florida this August, it was in a former retirement home on the outskirts of Naples.

I've got nothing against Catholic law schools - I go to one - but I would place Ave Maria pretty far down any ranking of law schools.

[TOMaHULK]

Just so everyone knows, Ave Maria moved from Michigan to Florida within the last 2 years. That's why the have all the stats about the Michigan Bar. Doesn't matter though, because it isn't worth attending no matter what state it's in.

Here's a great piece on how that happened, for those interested. It has to do with building a crucifix the size of the Statute of Liberty (true story):

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/colleg ... he_sky.php

Some choice quotes from the last page of the article:

Since [a board member who opposed Monaghan's] ouster, the law school has been in a freefall. Most of the original faculty have fled or been pushed out, and the quality of the students has tumbled. One current professor told me, “Our student body now is one of the four or five worst in America.” The instability has also wreaked havoc on the school’s reputation: in the 2009 U.S. News & World Report law school rankings, Ave Maria tied for last place in the peer-assessment category, the most important measure in determining a school’s standing. (The school was not officially ranked because U.S. News doesn’t rank schools that land in the bottom tier.) Meanwhile, there are signs that Monaghan’s foundation, which funds the law school and the university, is on the verge of running out of money, in part because Monaghan bet his fortune—and the future of his nonprofits—on the now-crumbling Florida real estate market. Earlier this year, Ave Maria University’s second-longest-standing professor resigned, but not before sending a letter to administrators expressing his alarm at the school’s financial straits. “I fear that all of us (to different degrees) are participating in something that we may later deeply regret,” he wrote, “namely selling to young people and their families [an] educational product that we do not have sufficient reason to believe can be delivered.”

Meanwhile, in June, the U.S. Department of Education reported that Ave Maria School of Law had failed its financial responsibility test, the only law school in the nation to do so. Even more troubling, the school ranked sixth to last among all American institutions of higher learning on the department’s financial responsibility index, thanks partly to its multimillion-dollar deficit. With its finances in disarray, the school has shelved plans for the $30 million building across from Mansion Row. When Ave Maria School of Law finally opened for business in Florida this August, it was in a former retirement home on the outskirts of Naples.

I've got nothing against Catholic law schools - I go to one - but I would place Ave Maria pretty far down any ranking of law schools.

Schools such as St. Thomas and Barry, in the same state, are actually catolic based, but it doesn't seem that they come with the same stigma. For reason I guess listed above already.

Also, I really don't think that Barry even deals with faith at all, merely has the foundation for it's origin.

[incase2011]

Seems like Ave Maria has a pretty decent faculty considering... Maybe someone can compare this to Barry or St. Thomas's faculty and prove me wrong? Or even some of the other schools that have been placed above it?

http://www.avemarialaw.edu/index.cfm?ev ... y.profiles

Ya, granted it just moved, but I think you all are naive as to where it moved. I'm not going to elaborate, I'm just going to put that out there. Of course, I'm no where, dear god, near making any comparison to Stetson or above. But dude is right, haters be hatin haha.

Also, let's save some time. I'm not at all affiliated with Ave Maria, but I know the area well. Some of the professors linked to above are from Canada, have crazy international backgrounds, etc. (probably pointless to pick one or two professors as indication that the whole faculty sucks; further, this would be poor form regardless of the topic. I see it too often. It's happened earlier in this thread lol.)

I'm just saying there's some quality there that most of those who posted earlier may have overlooked. It's too early to tell. The school just recently restructured, and it was tough. That's all I've heard. It has a non-existent or bad reputation, depending on how you look at it.

[TOMaHULK]

Seems like Ave Maria has a pretty decent faculty considering... Maybe someone can compare this to Barry or St. Thomas's faculty and prove me wrong? Or even some of the other schools that have been placed above it?

http://www.avemarialaw.edu/index.cfm?ev ... y.profiles

Ya, granted it just moved, but I think you all are naive as to where it moved. I'm not going to elaborate, I'm just going to put that out there. Of course, I'm no where, dear god, near making any comparison to Stetson or above. But dude is right, haters be hatin haha.

Also, let's save some time. I'm not at all affiliated with Ave Maria, but I know the area well. Some of the professors linked to above are from Canada, have crazy international backgrounds, etc. (probably pointless to pick one or two professors as indication that the whole faculty sucks; further, this would be poor form regardless of the topic. I see it too often. It's happened earlier in this thread lol.)

I'm just saying there's some quality there that most of those who posted earlier may have overlooked. It's too early to tell. The school just recently restructured, and it was tough. That's all I've heard. It has a non-existent or bad reputation, depending on how you look at it.

Well, I actually have met and had conversations with most of the admissions staff, as well as about an hour and a half lunch with the Dean. I'll say this, they are extremely polite, and kind people.

However...perhaps they just have the staff that you link above, due to the fact that they are so expensive and can buy such a staff. The main issue I have with Ave Maria, is the negative constraints that someone would most likely receive from prospective hiring firms, etc. In fact, I asked the Dean this very question "do you feel that your religious affiliations, would hurt future job prospects for graduates?" His reply "Not at all. Because the laws of this nation were founded based upon Judeo Christian views, it's extremely valuable to learn the law through the view of morals/etc in which the nation's original founders saw it. We don't want to simply teach you law. Our mission is to teach you the law, but to teach you to do the right thing and the moral thing." There was also talk about a line the passage from the bar oath, etc which read about promising to do what's right even if it goes against your client, etc.

Just figured I'd chime in on that.

[incase2011]

Very good point. I'm sure nobody would know this unless they lived nearby, but the new Ave Maria UG is on the boarder of the Everglades in the middle of nowhere. Nobody lives there, although it's pretty nice. If you do buy a house there, as a private resident, they censure your media intake (i.e. only certain channels on television and no porn). This is probably the wrong place to post this lol, but there's something un-American about not being able to find porn on the internet. Can you imagine if the troops couldn't get porn? Complete break down of the armed forces haha.

In any case, that's a good point tomahawk. I didn't know about the overtly religious aspects of their J.D. program, but, as is evinced above, I should have guessed. There're Catholic schools and then there are CATHOLIC schools...

[rman1201]

Whats with all the Catholic talk? A shitty school is a shitty school.

[incase2011]

Agh, that's the point bro. What makes it so crappy?

The answer tomahawk suggested, if I understand correctly, was that there's a stigma related to its probably overzealous Catholic undertones - whether that's right or wrong. Did you look at the faculty... you didn't even look at the faculty, did you haha. I'm not saying you couldn't find fault with some of them, but you know, consider the full picture.

[RockyIII]

Agh, that's the point bro. What makes it so crappy?

The answer tomahawk suggested, if I understand correctly, was that there's a stigma related to its probably overzealous Catholic undertones - whether that's right or wrong. Did you look at the faculty... you didn't even look at the faculty, did you haha. I'm not saying you couldn't find fault with some of them, but you know, consider the full picture.

Every law school in the country has "good" faculty. That doesn't make it a good school. There is a reason it is a TTTT. Employment statistics are horrible, it has an awful repuatation among peers, their median numbers are low, and it certainly is regarded very highly by employers.

[incase2011]

Agh, that's the point bro. What makes it so crappy?

The answer tomahawk suggested, if I understand correctly, was that there's a stigma related to its probably overzealous Catholic undertones - whether that's right or wrong. Did you look at the faculty... you didn't even look at the faculty, did you haha. I'm not saying you couldn't find fault with some of them, but you know, consider the full picture.

Every law school in the country has "good" faculty. That doesn't make it a good school. There is a reason it is a TTTT. Employment statistics are horrible, it has an awful repuatation among peers, their median numbers are low, and it certainly is regarded very highly by employers.

Ya, but do you see how a lot these problems could be attributed to the fact that it's only been open two years, or that it's a very Catholic school? Other than the reputation, you could have been describing Drexel (maybe an argument can be made that employers like Drexel, but people can be rough on the Drexel forums too. It's funny though how opinions change in different contexts. This could be interesting.). I'm not saying Drexel doesn't have a lot more going for it than Ave Maria. It's definitely in a better place financially. I'm simply saying... what I said lol.

[rman1201]

Agh, that's the point bro. What makes it so crappy?

The answer tomahawk suggested, if I understand correctly, was that there's a stigma related to its probably overzealous Catholic undertones - whether that's right or wrong. Did you look at the faculty... you didn't even look at the faculty, did you haha. I'm not saying you couldn't find fault with some of them, but you know, consider the full picture.

Every law school in the country has "good" faculty. That doesn't make it a good school. There is a reason it is a TTTT. Employment statistics are horrible, it has an awful repuatation among peers, their median numbers are low, and it certainly is regarded very highly by employers.

Ya, but do you see how a lot these problems could be attributed to the fact that it's only been open two years, or that it's a very Catholic school? Other than the reputation, you could have been describing Drexel (maybe an argument can be made that employers like Drexel, but people can be rough on the Drexel forums too. It's funny though how opinions change in different contexts. This could be interesting.). I'm not saying Drexel doesn't have a lot more going for it than Ave Maria. It's definitely in a better place financially. I'm simply saying... what I said lol.

I see what you're saying - but Notre Dame is 'very Catholic' and yet it does just fine, BYU is an even more ridiculous school (with an even more ridiculous religion) and it's a decent school too. Maybe they do take things too far and this contributes to it being the worst accredited school in the nation, but it's hard to pin it on religion alone. There's just a clusterf*** of things wrong with it.

[incase2011]

I secede - I thought it was worth giving a bigger picture of Ave Maria, if anything. I just felt like some things were being glossed over to a certain extent. Not everyone can go to the best schools, so hopefully, someone, somewhere has a little more insight now.

[incase2011]

Also, a close friend might have to attend for various reasons, so I had to say something...

[rman1201]

Also, a close friend might have to attend for various reasons, so I had to say something...

Friends don't let friends go to Ave Maria.

[incase2011]

Well it's not set in stone - we'll see how it goes haha.

[TOMaHULK]

Agh, that's the point bro. What makes it so crappy?

The answer tomahawk suggested, if I understand correctly, was that there's a stigma related to its probably overzealous Catholic undertones - whether that's right or wrong. Did you look at the faculty... you didn't even look at the faculty, did you haha. I'm not saying you couldn't find fault with some of them, but you know, consider the full picture.

Every law school in the country has "good" faculty. That doesn't make it a good school. There is a reason it is a TTTT. Employment statistics are horrible, it has an awful repuatation among peers, their median numbers are low, and it certainly is regarded very highly by employers.

Ya, but do you see how a lot these problems could be attributed to the fact that it's only been open two years, or that it's a very Catholic school? Other than the reputation, you could have been describing Drexel (maybe an argument can be made that employers like Drexel, but people can be rough on the Drexel forums too. It's funny though how opinions change in different contexts. This could be interesting.). I'm not saying Drexel doesn't have a lot more going for it than Ave Maria. It's definitely in a better place financially. I'm simply saying... what I said lol.

I see what you're saying - but Notre Dame is 'very Catholic' and yet it does just fine, BYU is an even more ridiculous school (with an even more ridiculous religion) and it's a decent school too. Maybe they do take things too far and this contributes to it being the worst accredited school in the nation, but it's hard to pin it on religion alone. There's just a clusterf*** of things wrong with it.

Ave Maria's dean told me that BYU's magaine (or newsletter, etc-w/e) named Ave Maria the best atmosphere for christian students, or something like that...(not an exact quote) and they were proud to suggest "hey-if BYU is saying we're a very moral school...they look at us go..."

I'm just going to say this, the people I met there are very nice/good people. But I cannot attend that school for various reason (some of which are listed above). It seems hard enough to get a job out of law school these days without having the "hey wasn't that school created by Domino's Pizza?" talk with the prospective interviewer. And I'm not saying that in a humourous way either. When I think Ave Maria...I'm thinking pizza. I'm sure others do too. Not only is it a fourth tier, which for some is their only option, but it's a fourth tier with these negative attachments to it. So all I'm suggesting is that if you do decide to go to a forth tier, you don't need anything to make your future job search even more difficult.

[romothesavior]

Agh, that's the point bro. What makes it so crappy?

The whole being really expensive and having atrociously atrocious job prospects may have something to do with it.

[romothesavior]

My god the posts in this thread are awful.

[TOMaHULK]

My god the posts in this thread are awful.

All of em?

[RockyIII]

My god the posts in this thread are awful.

All of em?

Yes

[romothesavior]

hence, miami is more expensive, but is that the only reason not to attend?

Here's a reason: Having $200,000 in loans with a $40,000 salary, or worse, no legal job at all.

[RockyIII]

hence, miami is more expensive, but is that the only reason not to attend?

Here's a reason: Having $200,000 in loans with a $40,000 salary, or worse, no legal job at all.

Okay well if I make $40,000 I can pay pack my $200,000 debt in 5 years! I did that math correctly, yeah?

[romothesavior]

hence, miami is more expensive, but is that the only reason not to attend?

Here's a reason: Having $200,000 in loans with a $40,000 salary, or worse, no legal job at all.

Okay well if I make $40,000 I can pay pack my $200,000 debt in 5 years! I did that math correctly, yeah?

I like your style, and your avatar.

[Malcolm8X]

hence, miami is more expensive, but is that the only reason not to attend?

Here's a reason: Having $200,000 in loans with a $40,000 salary, or worse, no legal job at all.

Okay well if I make $40,000 I can pay pack my $200,000 debt in 5 years! I did that math correctly, yeah?

+1. lol!