OLD SCHOOL (must be 30 and over ITT) Forum

[SciDoc]

Just wanted to say hi too!

I am 30 now, but will be around 32 when I start law school ('12-'13 cycle). I try not to think about the age differences to be honest. Like others said, I feel like at this stage in my life I really know how to prioritize and manage my time effectively without compromising a social life. Being in Grad school and doing a postdoc with little or now life has prepared my quite well for all the stresses of law school I think.

[DocHawkeye]

Just wanted to say hi too!
Being in Grad school and doing a postdoc with little or now life has prepared my quite well for all the stresses of law school I think.

You would think so, but being a fellow PhD holder, I would beg to differ.

[SciDoc]

Just wanted to say hi too!
Being in Grad school and doing a postdoc with little or now life has prepared my quite well for all the stresses of law school I think.

You would think so, but being a fellow PhD holder, I would beg to differ.

Can you elaborate? I don't doubt that it will be stressful. Maybe my comment was a bit facetious, not my intent at all...I just know that most 1L's haven't ever worked 70hr weeks with additional pressure/stress from the boss, so given that "life experience", I might be better prepared to handle heavy work loads.

[nygrrrl]

Just wanted to say hi too!
Being in Grad school and doing a postdoc with little or now life has prepared my quite well for all the stresses of law school I think.

You would think so, but being a fellow PhD holder, I would beg to differ.

Can you elaborate? I don't doubt that it will be stressful. Maybe my comment was a bit facetious, not my intent at all...I just know that most 1L's haven't ever worked 70hr weeks with additional pressure/stress from the boss, so given that "life experience", I might be better prepared to handle heavy work loads.

As a fellow Over-30 with many years in a fairly high stress job, I would just say that law school is different. I really don't feel the age difference at all (well, maybe once in a blue moon? but after the first month or so at school, it wasn't an issue), except in that I am more comfortable with the professors than some of my younger classmates. The work load though... hm. It's a totally different kind of stress. I love it, but it's different. Doc, you think that's accurate?

[r6_philly]

I feel the stress is sort of artificial. I only started feel stress because of waiting for grades and job offers. I do feel weird about being assessed by grades, I thought I was beyond that by a decade or so lol

I do wish I can start working now instead of 2 and half more years of school.

[nygrrrl]

I feel the stress is sort of artificial. I only started feel stress because of waiting for grades and job offers. I do feel weird about being assessed by grades, I thought I was beyond that by a decade or so lol

I do wish I can start working now instead of 2 and half more years of school.

I agree, Philly. Weirdly, I'm not stressed by the grades. I mean, I want them for my own ego, but other than that I don't really care. I think the stresses are self-imposed.

[r6_philly]

I feel the stress is sort of artificial. I only started feel stress because of waiting for grades and job offers. I do feel weird about being assessed by grades, I thought I was beyond that by a decade or so lol

I do wish I can start working now instead of 2 and half more years of school.

I agree, Philly. Weirdly, I'm not stressed by the grades. I mean, I want them for my own ego, but other than that I don't really care. I think the stresses are self-imposed.

And it's only self-imposed because of the uncertainty about getting a job. I feel like I can get a job regardless, but until I get one, I stress about my grades somehow changing that. Hopefully I get a job very soon, and grades will no longer bother me one bit.

[nygrrrl]

And it's only self-imposed because of the uncertainty about getting a job. I feel like I can get a job regardless, but until I get one, I stress about my grades somehow changing that. Hopefully I get a job very soon, and grades will no longer bother me one bit.

THIS. Mostly, I'm not worried... but then I wonder if I'm being naive... and then I stress... lol. Yup.

[HellOnHeels]

Also going to say hello. While I'm only 29 right now, I'll be 30 by the time Fall rolls around. I have to say the most stressful part of applying to schools right now isn't really the waiting for acceptances/rejections, but merging going to law school with owning a house, having a husband that likes his job and extracurricular activities, and figuring out our finances.

Husband has been supportive, now if only the housing market would cooperate

[r6_philly]

And it's only self-imposed because of the uncertainty about getting a job. I feel like I can get a job regardless, but until I get one, I stress about my grades somehow changing that. Hopefully I get a job very soon, and grades will no longer bother me one bit.

THIS. Mostly, I'm not worried... but then I wonder if I'm being naive... and then I stress... lol. Yup.

Best of luck! We got this years ago!

[r6_philly]

Also going to say hello. While I'm only 29 right now, I'll be 30 by the time Fall rolls around. I have to say the most stressful part of applying to schools right now isn't really the waiting for acceptances/rejections, but merging going to law school with owning a house, having a husband that likes his job and extracurricular activities, and figuring out our finances.

Husband has been supportive, now if only the housing market would cooperate

I said that 2 cycles ago, and the best choice ended up staying right here where I have been. At least I am fortunate I have a fantastic choice right in my backyard. After school is another story. I am selling/moving no matter what the market is like.

[neimanmarxist]

Just wanted to say hi too!
Being in Grad school and doing a postdoc with little or now life has prepared my quite well for all the stresses of law school I think.

You would think so, but being a fellow PhD holder, I would beg to differ.

Can you elaborate? I don't doubt that it will be stressful. Maybe my comment was a bit facetious, not my intent at all...I just know that most 1L's haven't ever worked 70hr weeks with additional pressure/stress from the boss, so given that "life experience", I might be better prepared to handle heavy work loads.

prepare to be shocked by what your fellow 1Ls are capable of.

Also, it isn't necessarily less stressful than graduate school/the PhD process, it's just a different kind of stress. As a PhD student, you're worried about your stance relative to the small pool of people in your field, the extent to which you can control your advisor's perceptions of you so you can have an edge on a tiny and competitive job market, and the constant pressure to "get things done" when you are basically your own boss.

As a law student, you face a different kind of challenge. You're not swimming in the graduate-degree pond anymore, you're trying to stay afloat in an ocean. You are evaluated anonymously, which means that you have absolutely no control over the main quality indicator- law school grades. The curve is brutal. The issue is no longer what to work on to make oneself stand out, but how to master materials better, faster, and more thoroughly. Do not for a second think when going into law school that having worked a lot is going to give you anything over and above the young people in your oneL class-- for the most part you're not talking about a bunch of beer-ponging 22-year-olds, you're talking about a bunch of seriously driven people, every other one of whom is perfectly able to work as hard, if not harder, than you are.

I'm just saying- don't let experience or academic achievement make you feel too comfortable. You have no idea what's in store.

[SciDoc]

Just wanted to say hi too!
Being in Grad school and doing a postdoc with little or now life has prepared my quite well for all the stresses of law school I think.

You would think so, but being a fellow PhD holder, I would beg to differ.

Can you elaborate? I don't doubt that it will be stressful. Maybe my comment was a bit facetious, not my intent at all...I just know that most 1L's haven't ever worked 70hr weeks with additional pressure/stress from the boss, so given that "life experience", I might be better prepared to handle heavy work loads.

prepare to be shocked by what your fellow 1Ls are capable of.

Also, it isn't necessarily less stressful than graduate school/the PhD process, it's just a different kind of stress. As a PhD student, you're worried about your stance relative to the small pool of people in your field, the extent to which you can control your advisor's perceptions of you so you can have an edge on a tiny and competitive job market, and the constant pressure to "get things done" when you are basically your own boss.

As a law student, you face a different kind of challenge. You're not swimming in the graduate-degree pond anymore, you're trying to stay afloat in an ocean. You are evaluated anonymously, which means that you have absolutely no control over the main quality indicator- law school grades. The curve is brutal. The issue is no longer what to work on to make oneself stand out, but how to master materials better, faster, and more thoroughly. Do not for a second think when going into law school that having worked a lot is going to give you anything over and above the young people in your oneL class-- for the most part you're not talking about a bunch of beer-ponging 22-year-olds, you're talking about a bunch of seriously driven people, every other one of whom is perfectly able to work as hard, if not harder, than you are.

I'm just saying- don't let experience or academic achievement make you feel too comfortable. You have no idea what's in store.

Agreed My brother in law is a 1L at Stanford now and even he says it is kicking his butt, and this is coming from a guy who basically aced college and life in general. I guess I am wrong in thinking that the older students have an edge. Does any one have any stats on how the older students fair in comparison to their classmates...in general do they do worse?average?better? Probably most people only have anecdotal examples of the few older students they shared classes with- in which case that would be helpful to know too if they were treated any different than the younger 1L's.

[r6_philly]

Old people have an advantage (in general) in work ethics and getting a job. I think we are at a disadvantage in figuring out how to take law school tests better than the next person. I for myself find it a bit difficult trying to justify why I should tailor my answers to someone else's thinking, especially when there is no clear right answer. I think young minds are a bit easier to mold, so to speak.

[neimanmarxist]

I agree w/ r6 that the whole "tell the professor what they think on the exam" can throw someone that spent a long time in graduate school for a loop. All the books tell you to be "Creative" and "independent" in your exam answers, but that's not what they mean. they mean, figure out the professor's creative, independent angle on an issue, and regurgitate it (in my experience, anywho.) I think graduate training might make this understanding of "creative and independent" difficult to grasp at first, after spending years doing what you've been doing in grad school, it almost feels embarrassing to treat the issues that way on an exam (literally!) . this is from my personal experience, but it's what I really took away from LS exam-taking.

Informal survey of the oldsters I know suggests they ended up in the middle .

[mmk33]

I agree w/ r6 that the whole "tell the professor what they think on the exam" can throw someone that spent a long time in graduate school for a loop. All the books tell you to be "Creative" and "independent" in your exam answers, but that's not what they mean. they mean, figure out the professor's creative, independent angle on an issue, and regurgitate it (in my experience, anywho.) I think graduate training might make this understanding of "creative and independent" difficult to grasp at first, after spending years doing what you've been doing in grad school, it almost feels embarrassing to treat the issues that way on an exam (literally!) . this is from my personal experience, but it's what I really took away from LS exam-taking.

Informal survey of the oldsters I know suggests they ended up in the middle .

This is interesting, and something I hadn't heard. I can believe that for law exams there could be a serious disadvantage in taking a different stance from the prof. Does anyone have thoughts about this regarding placement (summer and after finishing)?

[pkt63]

+1 on this discussion. I was actually never stressed first semester. Others talked about crying from stress, and sometimes their stress was super obvious, like not really getting dressed toward finals (no makeup, halfway still in pajamas-ish) or biting your head off during a discussion of some Civ Pro doctrine. Or being scared of class discussions and professors or hearing the nervousness in their voice when they got called on in class. I had none of that, because after working for 10 years, speaking in front of groups of hundreds, on panels, getting yelled at by members of the public at a televised meeting, still having to show up groomed and in a suit no matter how long the hours I'd been working were, and knowing I had to place working relationships above my own feelings there was no way I was going to be afraid of any of this stuff or feel stressed by the workload of a 15 week semester. I felt like a kid in a candy store!

But just because they aren't as skilled in outwardly handling all that, doesn't mean they don't know how to get the important stuff done at the end. In the work world, the stuff I referenced is the important stuff, or a big part of it. In law school, it is very little. At my old job, we believed and always said that we were only as good as our last "performance". But in reality, in the work world, people judge you more holistically on a whole set of factors, whereas in law school you really are only as good as your last performance. And there is only one performance. I did well on last semester's grades, and I definitely don't think I would have done any better if I had washed my hair a few less times or anything like that, but the point is, it is very hard to get used to the idea that I can be so consistent over the 15 weeks, and do ok, and others can be completely inconsistent (on the outside at least) and also be just as ok (or better who knows).

I've definitely learned how to cut certain corners from having worked so much (i.e. not wasting my time being afraid of cold calling) but I've forgotten how to cut other corners, I guess. So maybe on balance there's no consistent trend of difference between the two populations. I have no idea. I still love the freedom of being a student, but I do hate being judged so narrowly, rather than on a professional standard that I can cultivate on a day-to-day basis.

[nygrrrl]

I agree w/ r6 that the whole "tell the professor what they think on the exam" can throw someone that spent a long time in graduate school for a loop. All the books tell you to be "Creative" and "independent" in your exam answers, but that's not what they mean. they mean, figure out the professor's creative, independent angle on an issue, and regurgitate it (in my experience, anywho.) I think graduate training might make this understanding of "creative and independent" difficult to grasp at first, after spending years doing what you've been doing in grad school, it almost feels embarrassing to treat the issues that way on an exam (literally!) . this is from my personal experience, but it's what I really took away from LS exam-taking.

Informal survey of the oldsters I know suggests they ended up in the middle .

Yep.
Most of the 30+s where I am (that I know) did fine, some did better than fine. Almost all of the 30+s I know work full or part time and that usually has some impact on grades.

[r6_philly]

Reviving!

How are my oldies doing? What are your summer plans and do you think being in this club helped or not?

[MrHaephestus]

.

[pkt63]

Hey all. This semester has been sorta tough so far. For non-school related reasons, but also for school. I'm estimating the average reading assignment has increased by 50% over last semester. Last semester, our reading assignments among all our classes were so consistent I thought it was a kind of standard or unspoken rule. This semester, it is definitely higher on average, plus a much higher rate of variability, which makes it hard to balance. My IP class, for instance, is probably about 30 pages on average, but on any given day varies from 17pp to 52pp. Last semester, it was *so* easy to make sure to get all my reading done the day before each class, and it's just not always possible now. Not to mention, it's harder to feel a mastery over the subjects.

I'm also less enamored of my professors and class topics, in general, but that's a little minor and probably also a reflection of my bitterness wrt the increased reading.

I did a mock trial competition this semester and also of course, we have our written/oral advocacy class. And surprisingly, I think I am learning that I don't want to do litigation/trial work. A seminar class I have focuses on a subject that is mostly transactional and I think I sort of love it. I kind of love the minutia, boring paper-pushing parts of it. Hmmm!

To MrHsephestus: wrt to the "douchebaggery of gunners" and law school...I truly hope you don't experience that! It's definitely the one thing I haven't at all. The people here seem to me to be pretty representative of the population as a whole (there are the fun people, the goofs, the partiers, the ones that have voices that sound like nails on chalkboards, etc.) but just on average a lot smarter than the average population. I definitely don't think there are any more douchebags than usual, and in fact, a lot of people seem to go out of their way to be less douchebaggy than average. I wonder where all the douchebags are! I think there is a rule that if you look around and don't see the [douchebag, in this case], it must be you. That might be the case, but if I am the only douchebag at Boalt, then that is still a pretty pleasant environment!

[r6_philly]

We are just the opposite, it has been very light this semester. Our appellate brief has been very time consuming though. This is the forth and last written project since we started school, very looking forward to arguing it in court.

We have 2 days to go until spring break, got my summer job situation out of the way. Look forward to some golf and drinking!

[pkt63]

I can't wait for spring break, which is still over 3 weeks away for us. I was hoping my husband and I could plan a quick getaway, like to a warm island somewhere or something, but at this point, I just want to go home, get a facial, a massage, and sleep. With one week, I don't think I will have time to do much more than that.

I'm definitely grateful to have my summer internship squared away. Well, knock on wood. I have a number of background check processes to get through. But assuming that all goes well....Anyway, it seems like the market for summer internships is doing well. Most people I know seem to have their job in place, and a lot of the 1Ls have summer associate jobs at great firms. Spend too long on these boards and you start to think you will get lucky to find anybody that will deign to let you work for them, much less a firm that would even glance in the direction of a 1L. I'm very happy for my classmates, and I know there are still many opportunities to be found into March and April, so I'm feeling optimistic for our class.

[kalvano]

Just so you all know, your prior WE will be super appealing to smaller and midsize firms if you miss the Biglaw boat. I've gotten interviews that friends with much better grades have not, and they have all pointed to my WE.

[sidhesadie]

Last semester was fabulous, and not particularly stressful in my opinion (I got sick at finals and that caused some stress, but other than that, not really).

This semester, we have our appellate brief AND all the substantive classes have ramped up the reading significantly, and our property prof assigns about 25 questions per class that have to be done EVERY CLASS on top of the reading (and someone is going to get called on, so you have to do it). It's sort of dreadful.

I did get a job for summer, (and next school year)which is good and stressful. Good because it's the one I wanted, stressful because now I have to figure out what to do with my kid, who is too old for most of the reasonably priced summer camps but a bit too young and immature to be home alone. Plus he's about to start puberty, his hormones are the most stressful part of ALL OF THIS!!!!!