U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions Forum

[JoeFish]

To me, the main problem with iLeap is that you screw yourself if you don't get in to Illinois, because by not taking the LSAT, you rule out any other school. If you put all your eggs in the iLeap basket and you don't get in, you are waiting a year before you can apply again.

I believe they do inform you of your acceptance to the program either during spring of your junior year or the summer thereafter, giving you plenty of time to take the LSAT and apply to any other school during the normal cycle. I don't think there's any "eggs-in-one-basket" issue, at least in terms of having to wait a year. There is still the issue of committing to an option early, without seeing how you would've fared in any other school's application process, but I know at least a few iLeapers whose preferences seemed to be, from most to least desirable 1) Go to UIUC COL, 2) Find a job, 3) Live at home and look for a job, and then 4) Go to another Law School. The program definitely worked without issue for those people.

[Thirteen]

Well this is fitting: I had an e-mail exchange with Pless when I applied to law school. U of I waitlisted me even though I had more than good enough numbers to get in because of some minor character and fitness thing that other schools didn't care about. At that time, U of I had another little scandal, a pay for jobs scandal I think. Anyway, here was what I wrote to Pless at that time:

"The one thing I will say is that no one and nothing is Character and Fitness perfect - not even the University of Illinois. I guess that's what strikes me most. For a school that is looking to have its reputation based on its whole history rather than perhaps a few certain recent reports, you would think there would be more inclination to understand rather than less. I personally believe the first step to truly plotting a new course that puts character first is to become more understanding of imperfection. We too often see the John Edwards, who was among the most vocal Democrats in criticizing Clinton for his affair, or Eliot Spitzer, who declared punishment for prostitution should be made harsher."

Pless decided to dump me from the waitlist after I sent the e-mail. Well, at least my sniffer seemed to work in this instance...

What was this "minor character and fitness thing"? They cracked down on C&F after the 2009 cycle.

[Tanicius]

Well this is fitting: I had an e-mail exchange with Pless when I applied to law school. U of I waitlisted me even though I had more than good enough numbers to get in because of some minor character and fitness thing that other schools didn't care about. At that time, U of I had another little scandal, a pay for jobs scandal I think. Anyway, here was what I wrote to Pless at that time:

"The one thing I will say is that no one and nothing is Character and Fitness perfect - not even the University of Illinois. I guess that's what strikes me most. For a school that is looking to have its reputation based on its whole history rather than perhaps a few certain recent reports, you would think there would be more inclination to understand rather than less. I personally believe the first step to truly plotting a new course that puts character first is to become more understanding of imperfection. We too often see the John Edwards, who was among the most vocal Democrats in criticizing Clinton for his affair, or Eliot Spitzer, who declared punishment for prostitution should be made harsher."

Pless decided to dump me from the waitlist after I sent the e-mail. Well, at least my sniffer seemed to work in this instance...

What was this "minor character and fitness thing"? They cracked down on C&F after the 2009 cycle.

I'm also interested in his numbers and how he knows the ding was C&F-related.

It was probably typo-related based on the presumption that that email is a verbatim copy paste. lol

[Samara]

In state tuition in 2006-07 was ~ $20,500 ... In state tuition in 2011-12 is ~ $35,000

Out of state tuition in 2006-07 was ~ $32,000 ... Out of state tuition in 2011-12 is ~$42,000

The inflated numbers --> inflated ranking

Inflated ranking resulted in prospective students over valuing UIUC and thus overpaying. This is called fraud.

I'd be interested to see a national tuition trend. Obviously it's increasing, but definitely not to the tune of $14,500/$10,000. There's potentially a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of damages (gross scholarships).

As an alum, at the very least, I'd like to see this fat bastard disbarred, and every article of Illinois clothing removed from his wardrobe.

They increased tuition so that they could increase their scholarship statistics. When 100% of the student body is receiving scholarships, the tuition increases aren't really increases. But sure, it's fraud.

[NiccoloA]

To be fair. $36,000/42,000 is definitely too much for a law degree from a school that is not named Harvard or Yale, but it isn't the most egregious example of tuition inflation that I've ever heard of.

[CanadianWolf]

Unfortunately, his pay raises were tied to increased LSAT & GPA numbers when it should have been tied to job placement or yield.

P.S. And I do understand the different missions between career services & admissions, but it would be better to work as a team. Also, I understand that increasing yield could lead to lower numbers and consequently, lower US News ranking, but a creative solution could cure this.

[Ludo!]

Unfortunately, his pay raises were tied to increased LSAT & GPA numbers when it should have been tied to job placement or yield.

Why would the admissions dean have a pay raise linked to job placement?

[Opie]

Unfortunately, his pay raises were tied to increased LSAT & GPA numbers when it should have been tied to job placement or yield.

Job placement is hard to control for the admissions office, but +1 to yield. That's really a good indicator because it shows that qualified candidates are choosing your school over your competition.

ETA: scooped.

[CanadianWolf]

Team work among administration, admissions & career placement. That's what most students think that they are purchasing, in my opinion, although reality is often different. Linking pay increases to increased numbers might be too tempting to cheat especially when there is no oversight. Increased numbers do not benefit the consumers without increased job placement.

[Opie]

Team work among administration, admissions & career placement. That's what most students think that they are purchasing, in my opinion, although reality is often different. Linking pay increases to increased numbers might be too tempting to cheat especially when there is no oversight. Increased numbers do not benefit the consumers without increased job placement.

Increased rank leads to increased job placement. You think people hire people from Harvard because it's a good school? Doubtful. People probably learn more from many of the T14 than HLS.

[Kabuo]

Team work among administration, admissions & career placement. That's what most students think that they are purchasing, in my opinion, although reality is often different. Linking pay increases to increased numbers might be too tempting to cheat especially when there is no oversight. Increased numbers do not benefit the consumers without increased job placement.

Increased rank leads to increased job placement. You think people hire people from Harvard because it's a good school? Doubtful. People probably learn more from many of the T14 than HLS.

I think people would continue to hire from Harvard even if US News changed its formula next year to the effect that the T14 remained the same but H fell to T2. I also think they'd still hire from H if Cooley finally passes it in the rankings this year.

[chrisbru]

Team work among administration, admissions & career placement. That's what most students think that they are purchasing, in my opinion, although reality is often different. Linking pay increases to increased numbers might be too tempting to cheat especially when there is no oversight. Increased numbers do not benefit the consumers without increased job placement.

Admissions is admissions. Their job is to get qualified students to come to their school, nothing more. Teamwork between admissions and career services wouldn't help anything, since career services only deals with students who are already attending the school.

Students think they are purchasing a law degree from a school with X rank. I'm relatively sure that if you polled all incoming law students, a large majority would admit that they focused more on rank than job placement statistics. Partially because said statistics are largely shit, but secondly because incoming students equate rank with job opportunities.

Increased medians means increased rank means increased interest in the school. That's why admissions raises are linked to these things. However, you are correct in that there should be more oversight. Someone said earlier... If I bring in a bunch of numbers about my performance that I put together myself to my boss, why should he believe me without verifying the data is correct first?

[Opie]

Team work among administration, admissions & career placement. That's what most students think that they are purchasing, in my opinion, although reality is often different. Linking pay increases to increased numbers might be too tempting to cheat especially when there is no oversight. Increased numbers do not benefit the consumers without increased job placement.

Increased rank leads to increased job placement. You think people hire people from Harvard because it's a good school? Doubtful. People probably learn more from many of the T14 than HLS.

I think people would continue to hire from Harvard even if US News changed its formula next year to the effect that the T14 remained the same but H fell to T2. I also think they'd still hire from H if Cooley finally passes it in the rankings this year.

They would, and I'm not saying it is a bad school. It's obviously a terrific school. It's also incredibly competitive to the point of being too stressful even for law school, and it's huge. I just mean to say that there are lots of schools that probably produce better lawyers, but it's really about the rankings.

[SaintClarence27]

Does anyone else think Smith is/should be out at the end of the school year?

[CanadianWolf]

I'm surprised that he is still there.

[SaintClarence27]

Maybe it will be a sort of "Overseeing the transition" thing.

[Ludo!]

Why would Smith be out? The report completely absolved him. Whether or not its true, Pless is the fall guy for this thing.

Personally, I think Hurd should be fired since she is much more responsible than Smith.

[blurbz]

lol at Smith being out.

No. Why would he be? For him to have caught this, he would have had to go through EVERY SINGLE APPLICATION. Why would we even have someone else to do that job if Smith had to do it anyway? This sucks, but it's unrealistic to expect the dean to go over every little detail.

Also, agree with the above: Hurd should be gone. For myriad reasons.

[CanadianWolf]

Some think that he only would need to have shown some common sense. But if one wants to believe, then there's always another Bernie Madoff.

[Danteshek]

Do you think UI will go after Pless for his ill-gotten salary increases?

[Opie]

lol at Smith being out.

No. Why would he be? For him to have caught this, he would have had to go through EVERY SINGLE APPLICATION. Why would we even have someone else to do that job if Smith had to do it anyway? This sucks, but it's unrealistic to expect the dean to go over every little detail.

Well, he could do crazy things like, I dunno, having at least one other person double check the absurdly important numbers. Especially when the person with sole control over the numbers happens to have his pay scale attached to them.

+1

IMO EVERY administrator with any involvement in creating the system that was responsible for putting Pless in a situation that he was even ABLE to do this should have some consequence.

[CanadianWolf]

No, because UI wants the investigations & scandals to end. So far, he has kept his mouth shut & taken all the blame. No need to mess with this & involve others.

[Danteshek]

Do you think UI will go after Pless for his ill-gotten salary increases?

You should write a letter to the appropriate government agency regarding this matter, with your law review membership included in your signature. TYIA.

This is a contractual matter between two private parties. I do not know that any government agency would care.

[vanwinkle]

Do you think UI will go after Pless for his ill-gotten salary increases?

You should write a letter to the appropriate government agency regarding this matter, with your law review membership included in your signature. TYIA.

This is a contractual matter between two private parties. I do not know that any government agency would care.

[SaintClarence27]

lol at Smith being out.

No. Why would he be? For him to have caught this, he would have had to go through EVERY SINGLE APPLICATION. Why would we even have someone else to do that job if Smith had to do it anyway? This sucks, but it's unrealistic to expect the dean to go over every little detail.

Well, he could do crazy things like, I dunno, having at least one other person double check the absurdly important numbers. Especially when the person with sole control over the numbers happens to have his pay scale attached to them.

He signed and certified the numbers were true when they weren't. He should be gone.