ITT: New School Medians Revealed Forum

[Robespierre]

Seems like no real trend. No evidence of a widespread drop in medians due to fewer applications. Not yet, anyway.

Basically I'm just bumping the thread.

I'd say there is a trend: medians seem to be staying relatively static, especially in the T14. This is actually a big change from recent years since medians were going up consistently. It's good news, for everyone except those with 3.98/179

True that, true that, no news is good news in that sense.

I guess the other trend - or more like a piece of news rather than a statistical trend - is the reductions in number of students matriculated at some schools. I always thought schools would never do that, in order to cling to the revenue. Not true, apparently.

[KevinP]

Shameless bump. Also, here's some more data:
Gonzaga: 155 (no change), 3.33 (-.03)
University of Pittsburgh: 159 (-1), Site doesn't list GPA yet

[KevinP]

True that, true that, no news is good news in that sense.

I guess the other trend - or more like a piece of news rather than a statistical trend - is the reductions in number of students matriculated at some schools. I always thought schools would never do that, in order to cling to the revenue. Not true, apparently.

Interesting point. Assuming we can extrapolate from the the 18.7% drop in June test takers, I'm really wondering how schools are going to cope this cycle.

[ThomasMN]

I think Admission Deans are going to have an interesting time trying to keep their class sizes stable and keeping their medians in the same ball park as they have been in the past few years. I'm not entirely certain how true this is, but it seems a lot of schools are really pushing early binding decisions. Notre Dame doesn't even open up their regular decision apps until October and Boston University is doing an early binding decision with full scholarship option that seems very similar to GWU's setup. I think at some point some of these schools are either going to end up really dropping class size or letting their medians drop. To be honest, I think it will be a great cycle for splitters as schools try to keep up their LSAT numbers.

[Jack Smirks]

^ I agree. I really don't see schools cutting class sizes again to maintain their current medians so I'm predicting a drop this cycle.

[ThomasMN]

I know for a fact that lot of lower tier schools and TTT are hurting hard. A friend of mine that goes to Vermont said that their incoming class is literally around half the size of his(Correction: 23.8% drop in enrollment). Some of that might actually be exaggeration, but it would be interesting to see if it is true. It is a little funny that a lot of folks in admission offices thought that there would be more applications for 2010-2011 than 2009-2010.

[jaydizzle]

IUB 166 3.75

LSAT +2, GPA +0

[Bildungsroman]

IUB 166 3.75

LSAT +2, GPA +0

Looks like throwing absolute gobs of money at applicants with good LSAT scores has paid off. IUB and UIUC are tied and competing to be the school whose ranking least aligns with actual employment outcomes for graduates.

[chrisbru]

Our class size at Iowa this year is 181, down from (I think) 203 last year. That's a 10.8% drop.

[Aberzombie1892]

IUB 166 3.75

LSAT +2, GPA +0

Looks like throwing absolute gobs of money at applicants with good LSAT scores has paid off. IUB and UIUC are tied and competing to be the school whose ranking least aligns with actual employment outcomes for graduates.

IUB and Davis, my friend. While UIUC isn't the best thing since swiss cheese, it does well enough to be in the top 25ish.

[Bildungsroman]

IUB 166 3.75

LSAT +2, GPA +0

Looks like throwing absolute gobs of money at applicants with good LSAT scores has paid off. IUB and UIUC are tied and competing to be the school whose ranking least aligns with actual employment outcomes for graduates.

IUB and Davis, my friend. While UIUC isn't the best thing since swiss cheese, it does well enough to be in the top 25ish.

Fair point. Plus I like UIUC, since they gave me a great flash drive that I still use.

[mrtoren]

Don't if its been posted, but IIT Chicago-Kent reported an LSAT median of 160 [-1]

[crysmissmichelle]

Richmond had a 162, 3.5 median this year for 154 students. . .

[Robespierre]

True that, true that, no news is good news in that sense.

I guess the other trend - or more like a piece of news rather than a statistical trend - is the reductions in number of students matriculated at some schools. I always thought schools would never do that, in order to cling to the revenue. Not true, apparently.

Interesting point. Assuming we can extrapolate from the the 18.7% drop in June test takers, I'm really wondering how schools are going to cope this cycle.

Just thinking out loud here ... I'm wondering if a lot of people decided not to take the June '11 test because, as of early '11, the economy looked like it was picking up (LS applications are traditionally down when the economy is good). Whereas people considering the October '11 test made their decision during the last couple of months, with the economy tanking again (stock market down, U.S. credit downgrade, Europe problems, etc.)

In other words, I'm not totally sold that there will be a big decrease in test-takers, and thus applicants, for the '11-'12 cycle as a whole.

But I hope I'm wrong. I hope the number of test-takers is down because people are getting the message that the profession is overcrowded and legal hiring is off. That's not about to change very soon; certainly not this cycle.

[sanetruth]

True that, true that, no news is good news in that sense.

I guess the other trend - or more like a piece of news rather than a statistical trend - is the reductions in number of students matriculated at some schools. I always thought schools would never do that, in order to cling to the revenue. Not true, apparently.

Interesting point. Assuming we can extrapolate from the the 18.7% drop in June test takers, I'm really wondering how schools are going to cope this cycle.

Just thinking out loud here ... I'm wondering if a lot of people decided not to take the June '11 test because, as of early '11, the economy looked like it was picking up (LS applications are traditionally down when the economy is good). Whereas people considering the October '11 test made their decision during the last couple of months, with the economy tanking again (stock market down, U.S. credit downgrade, Europe problems, etc.)

In other words, I'm not totally sold that there will be a big decrease in test-takers, and thus applicants, for the '11-'12 cycle as a whole.

But I hope I'm wrong. I hope the number of test-takers is down because people are getting the message that the profession is overcrowded and legal hiring is off. That's not about to change very soon; certainly not this cycle.

The decision to apply to law school for those who wouldn't have otherwise isn't usually made because the stock market is down, but because hiring is down and people can't find jobs. Hiring, while not what it was in 2007, is up from what it was like in 2009, which is when most people were trying to hide away in graduate school. This summer's economic woes are unlikely to have a significant effect on the number of applicants unless it markedly effects job prospects between now and the deadline for signing up for the October LSAT. This (*knocks on wood*) seems unlikely.

[Robespierre]

True that, true that, no news is good news in that sense.

I guess the other trend - or more like a piece of news rather than a statistical trend - is the reductions in number of students matriculated at some schools. I always thought schools would never do that, in order to cling to the revenue. Not true, apparently.

Interesting point. Assuming we can extrapolate from the the 18.7% drop in June test takers, I'm really wondering how schools are going to cope this cycle.

Just thinking out loud here ... I'm wondering if a lot of people decided not to take the June '11 test because, as of early '11, the economy looked like it was picking up (LS applications are traditionally down when the economy is good). Whereas people considering the October '11 test made their decision during the last couple of months, with the economy tanking again (stock market down, U.S. credit downgrade, Europe problems, etc.)

In other words, I'm not totally sold that there will be a big decrease in test-takers, and thus applicants, for the '11-'12 cycle as a whole.

But I hope I'm wrong. I hope the number of test-takers is down because people are getting the message that the profession is overcrowded and legal hiring is off. That's not about to change very soon; certainly not this cycle.

The decision to apply to law school for those who wouldn't have otherwise isn't usually made because the stock market is down, but because hiring is down and people can't find jobs. Hiring, while not what it was in 2007, is up from what it was like in 2009, which is when most people were trying to hide away in graduate school. This summer's economic woes are unlikely to have a significant effect on the number of applicants unless it markedly effects job prospects between now and the deadline for signing up for the October LSAT. This (*knocks on wood*) seems unlikely.

Let's meet in this thread when the data comes out about the number of October LSAT takers. I hope you turn out to be right and me wrong!

[minuit]

FSU... approximately 26.8% drop in applications.

2011 Class Profile:

Applications: 2,650
Enrolled: 200
Median LSAT: 162
Median GPA: 3.52

2010:

Applications: 3,621
Enrolled: 199
Median LSAT: 162
Median GPA: 3.52

(0, 0.0) change

EDIT:

Found UF, too!

2011:
Enrolled: 295
Median LSAT: 162
Median GPA: 3.64

2010:
Enrolled: 310
Median LSAT: 162
Median GPA: 3.67

(0, -0.03) change

[Tiago Splitter]

I hope the number of test-takers is down because people are getting the message that the profession is overcrowded and legal hiring is off

Me too. I had been thinking about an ED, but I'll probably wait until after the October test-taking numbers come out before making any decisions.

[BackToTheOldHouse]

IUB 166 3.75

LSAT +2, GPA +0

Looks like throwing absolute gobs of money at applicants with good LSAT scores has paid off. IUB and UIUC are tied and competing to be the school whose ranking least aligns with actual employment outcomes for graduates.

IUB and Davis, my friend. While UIUC isn't the best thing since swiss cheese, it does well enough to be in the top 25ish.

Swiss cheese sucks (where my cheese holes at!?!), and I hear Davis's placement does too lately . Is that true? I've got a friend contemplating attendance . . .

[KevinP]

Georgetown just released their medians; they decreased their total class size from 591 to 578.
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissions/JDFAQs.htm

Georgetown: 170 (no change), 3.71 (+.04)

[TaipeiMort]

I'd like to see where Chicago's Median is after the inflow of Rubenstein $$$.

[KevinP]

Just thinking out loud here ... I'm wondering if a lot of people decided not to take the June '11 test because, as of early '11, the economy looked like it was picking up (LS applications are traditionally down when the economy is good). Whereas people considering the October '11 test made their decision during the last couple of months, with the economy tanking again (stock market down, U.S. credit downgrade, Europe problems, etc.)

In other words, I'm not totally sold that there will be a big decrease in test-takers, and thus applicants, for the '11-'12 cycle as a whole.

But I hope I'm wrong. I hope the number of test-takers is down because people are getting the message that the profession is overcrowded and legal hiring is off. That's not about to change very soon; certainly not this cycle.

You make some valid points, hence why I added the "assuming we can extrapolate" statement. However, I do think we'll see a decline in applicants for the 2011-2012 cycle even if it is only a small one for a number of reasons. First, the difference between October and June is only 4 months and the difference between the recent economic fears and and October is even smaller making the time frame to register and prepare for October relatively small. Second, the allure of law school was partially attributed to the hype of a law degree and now with many lawyers jobless, the hype is somewhat mitigated. The hype is further decreased by media outlets reporting on the dangers of a JD. Finally, even if October does not show a decrease, the decrease from June will carry over creating a cumulative effect. I understand that the economic situation we are facing is unique and that using past data to try and predict current data isn't reliable, I did notice that decreases and increases happened in trends. In other words, a decrease or increase has always happened for at least 3 years before changing direction since 1987.

tl;dr *makes BS reasons to convince himself of an applicant decrease and crosses fingers*

[avemundi]

KevinP, we think alike. That's basically what I tell myself every night before bed these days.
"Shhh, it'll be ok, applicants will be down, the law schools will HAVE to accept you, if not for your intelligence and promise, then to add to their head count...shhh, relax, go to sleep...."

[hipstermafia]

Georgetown just released their medians; they decreased their total class size from 591 to 578.
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissions/JDFAQs.htm

Georgetown: 170 (no change), 3.71 (+.04)

of note, the part time program was cut from 120 to 70, so there are actually more entering full time jd students this year.

[Robespierre]

Just thinking out loud here ... I'm wondering if a lot of people decided not to take the June '11 test because, as of early '11, the economy looked like it was picking up (LS applications are traditionally down when the economy is good). Whereas people considering the October '11 test made their decision during the last couple of months, with the economy tanking again (stock market down, U.S. credit downgrade, Europe problems, etc.)

In other words, I'm not totally sold that there will be a big decrease in test-takers, and thus applicants, for the '11-'12 cycle as a whole.

But I hope I'm wrong. I hope the number of test-takers is down because people are getting the message that the profession is overcrowded and legal hiring is off. That's not about to change very soon; certainly not this cycle.

You make some valid points, hence why I added the "assuming we can extrapolate" statement. However, I do think we'll see a decline in applicants for the 2011-2012 cycle even if it is only a small one for a number of reasons. First, the difference between October and June is only 4 months and the difference between the recent economic fears and and October is even smaller making the time frame to register and prepare for October relatively small. Second, the allure of law school was partially attributed to the hype of a law degree and now with many lawyers jobless, the hype is somewhat mitigated. The hype is further decreased by media outlets reporting on the dangers of a JD. Finally, even if October does not show a decrease, the decrease from June will carry over creating a cumulative effect. I understand that the economic situation we are facing is unique and that using past data to try and predict current data isn't reliable, I did notice that decreases and increases happened in trends. In other words, a decrease or increase has always happened for at least 3 years before changing direction since 1987.

tl;dr *makes BS reasons to convince himself of an applicant decrease and crosses fingers*

You make valid points, too. And I agree with you. There will be a decrease in applications again in 2011-12. All I'm saying is that I think may be "only a small one," as you said.

Good point about the June decrease carrying over. The decrease in June LSAT takers was so huge that there almost HAS to be a decrease in applicants for this year as a whole.

Again, I'm hoping I'm wrong; here's to a 15%+ decrease in apps [hic]!