My observation about the people on this board Forum

[Patriot1208]

Awesome logic. I view marriage as a monetary investment because that's what it is. I view exercise and fitness as a monetary investment because that's what it is. I view going to the movies as a monetary investment because that's what it is. I pay something in hopes of making more later.

No, law school is not the same as these things, but to boil down going to law school as a strictly monetary investment is probably not the best thing to do. But what do I know, I'm an 0L.

You make less and less sense with every post you make. No one WANTS to go to school. School isn't fun. We do it because we believe we will get something out of it, a better job. I wouldn't have gone to undergrad if I could make the same money doing something straight out of HS.

[afc1910]

I reiterate, Tiger Dad said that if you go to a law school ranked 20-100 and like being a lawyer, then things will work out. At many of these schools, less than 1/2 of grads get full time legal employment within 9 months, and for a chunk of them it is less than 1/4.

How can things work out at these schools even if you went for free, let alone if you paid $200,000+?

Correct me if I am wrong, but the figures in that recent article were for 2010, no (I am too lazy/busy to look for the article and re-read)? First, I don't believe the article took into consideration the number of 2009 grads whose offers at firm were deferred until 2010, which significantly reduced the sized of income classes at many firms. Granted, the legal market is never going to bounce back up to where it was in the late 90s/early 00s where it seemed that law firms were throwing money at anyone with a JD, but it's not like people with any other graduate degree are having a ball right now. At the risk of sounding like the antithesis of taxguy, my mother has a PhD in Chemistry, over 20 years of experience, and has been published multiple times, and she's certainly not swimming in riches.

Also, one might argue that plenty of college grads don't get full time jobs nine months after graduation, and college is just as expensive as law school these days, AND it's four years. I don't see anyone telling people that college is waste of time and everyone is doomed to work in the service industry. I know things are bad, but i'm TRYING to stay optimistic here.

[BackToTheOldHouse]

Awesome logic. I view marriage as a monetary investment because that's what it is. I view exercise and fitness as a monetary investment because that's what it is. I view going to the movies as a monetary investment because that's what it is. I pay something in hopes of making more later.

No, law school is not the same as these things, but to boil down going to law school as a strictly monetary investment is probably not the best thing to do. But what do I know, I'm an 0L.

You make less and less sense with every post you make. No one WANTS to go to school. School isn't fun. We do it because we believe we will get something out of it, a better job. I wouldn't have gone to undergrad if I could make the same money doing something straight out of HS.

You're right. I'm making less sense with each post.

[Patriot1208]

You probably should have majored in engineering then.

Not really, engineers make more than most out of school and then get stuck in middle class. There are more monetarily succesful people in the legal practice than in engineering. And most of the engineers who made it big did so in business, not engineering.

[danquayle]

You did read the article about how on average less than 50% of graduates get full-time, permanent jobs requiring a JD? And, unless you are clerking for a state supreme court, you are one of them?

People are trying to keep people from ending up in a situation like yours 6 figures of debt and no permanent job. If you think you are in a great position to advise people how to deal with this job market, I would disagree.

To me, your story is one of the examples of what can go wrong in law; a cautionary tale.

OUCH, why did OPs post piss you off so much? If OP has 6 figures in debt and is happy about his job prospects, my guess would be that he does have a permanent job and is making enough money to live comfortably enough to maintain a satisfying lifestyle while paying off his loans. No need to slam someone who has been through the law school process already and is simply offering a different perspective than the majority of the negative sentiment that exists on this site.

+1 OP offered a fairly middle of the road perspective and is still getting hammered. People need to CTFO

Yes.

Dude's happy. I think most of you are hoping after law school you'll land in a position where you can say you're happy.

I've said this before, but looking at it in purely dollars and cents misses a lot of the value some people have in being a lawyer. Some people just want a job with apparent "prestige." Plenty of people would rather work for what amounts to $30k a year (after loan payments, etc) as a lawyer than $50k as a nurse.

[bk1]

To be fair, it's a vast simplification to say that he simply stated that if you go to a Top 100 school that things will work out in the end. He had several conditions to that working out bit and craftily didn't define working out as necessarily having anything to do with being an accomplished lawyer. Also the whole "end" part of that statement sort of makes the 9 month employment numbers rather irrelevant.

Well with "working out in the end" I assume that to mean in a better position than you were before law school. That, to me, either means that you are making more $ or that you are in a job that you want. For a lot of kids at T100 schools they get neither of these because they end up in a lot of debt and/or don't end up as full time lawyers. I understand that 9 months isn't as relevant but I question whether things will truly work out for a funemployed JD grad from a T2 school who has $200,000 in debt when there are more grads every year than there are jobs (and by a large margin).

His conditions for it were "working hard and being resilient," which is fucking stupid considering there are plenty of hardworking/persistent JD grads out there who don't have jobs. To imply that that is all it takes is misleading.

[whymeohgodno]

You probably should have majored in engineering then.

Not really, engineers make more than most out of school and then get stuck in middle class. There are more monetarily succesful people in the legal practice than in engineering. And most of the engineers who made it big did so in business, not engineering.

Yeah but engineering is probably one of the best majors from a purely dollar to income ratio. They have one of the best starting salaries, a growing demand, and good job security. Law on the other hand...Do you really want to bank not only on getting into a good school, getting biglaw, but also making partner? If you don't, the opportunity cost of law school + the debt will leave you in a worse position for almost everyone. How much do in-house lawyers make? I doubt they make much more than an engineer with 6+ years of experience.

[geoduck]

... Granted, the legal market is never going to bounce back up to where it was in the late 90s/early 00s where it seemed that law firms were throwing money at anyone with a JD...

Never is a long time. I bet it'll probably be pretty freaking awesome during the organ cloning bubble of 2031.

[BackToTheOldHouse]

... Granted, the legal market is never going to bounce back up to where it was in the late 90s/early 00s where it seemed that law firms were throwing money at anyone with a JD...

Never is a long time. I bet it'll probably be pretty freaking awesome during the organ cloning bubble of 2031.

Never Let Me Go.

[Patriot1208]

You probably should have majored in engineering then.

Not really, engineers make more than most out of school and then get stuck in middle class. There are more monetarily succesful people in the legal practice than in engineering. And most of the engineers who made it big did so in business, not engineering.

Yeah but engineering is probably one of the best majors from a purely dollar to income ratio. They have one of the best starting salaries, a growing demand, and good job security. Law on the other hand...Do you really want to bank not only on getting into a good school, getting biglaw, but also making partner? If you don't, the opportunity cost of law school + the debt will leave you in a worse position for almost everyone. How much do in-house lawyers make? I doubt they make much more than an engineer with 6+ years of experience.

No I don't want to bank on that, which is why i'm trying to get a consulting gig before taking the LS plunge lol.

[bk1]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the figures in that recent article were for 2010, no (I am too lazy/busy to look for the article and re-read)? First, I don't believe the article took into consideration the number of 2009 grads whose offers at firm were deferred until 2010, which significantly reduced the sized of income classes at many firms. Granted, the legal market is never going to bounce back up to where it was in the late 90s/early 00s where it seemed that law firms were throwing money at anyone with a JD, but it's not like people with any other graduate degree are having a ball right now. At the risk of sounding like the antithesis of taxguy, my mother has a PhD in Chemistry, over 20 years of experience, and has been published multiple times, and she's certainly not swimming in riches.

Also, one might argue that plenty of college grads don't get full time jobs nine months after graduation, and college is just as expensive as law school these days, AND it's four years. I don't see anyone telling people that college is waste of time and everyone is doomed to work in the service industry. I know things are bad, but i'm TRYING to stay optimistic here.

The figures I am referring to are the 2009 grads from USNWR, not the article from TNR.

I'm not saying that other areas are better than law, but that doesn't mean you need a grad degree that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. Find an area where you can work your way up or at least work your way up from job to job. Unemployment for recent college grads is, IIRC, 20-30%?

College isn't just as expensive as law school. State schools are much cheaper and more plentiful, plus aid is more available (both merit and need). Plus you can do things like go to CC and transfer quite easily.

[geoduck]

To be fair, it's a vast simplification to say that he simply stated that if you go to a Top 100 school that things will work out in the end. He had several conditions to that working out bit and craftily didn't define working out as necessarily having anything to do with being an accomplished lawyer. Also the whole "end" part of that statement sort of makes the 9 month employment numbers rather irrelevant.

Well with "working out in the end" I assume that to mean in a better position than you were before law school. That, to me, either means that you are making more $ or that you are in a job that you want. For a lot of kids at T100 schools they get neither of these because they end up in a lot of debt and/or don't end up as full time lawyers. I understand that 9 months isn't as relevant but I question whether things will truly work out for a funemployed JD grad from a T2 school who has $200,000 in debt when there are more grads every year than there are jobs (and by a large margin).

His conditions for it were "working hard and being resilient," which is fucking stupid considering there are plenty of hardworking/persistent JD grads out there who don't have jobs. To imply that that is all it takes is misleading.

Unless those hardworking grads are dead, it's nowhere near the end. You're accurate that the risk/reward balance is definitely a bit heavily weighted on the risk side of things for people $200k in debt without a job out the door, but statistically the gamble will work out for some of them and most likely those for which it does will be those "working hard and being resilient" rather than the ones that give up. The others will blog about how big a scam law school is and eventually die in the poorhouse.

[whymeohgodno]

You're accurate that the risk/reward balance is definitely a bit heavily weighted on the risk side of things for people $200k in debt without a job

Understatement of the century.

[etlien]

I know the last thing you want to read are posts from adults who read this forum because they have a son applying to law school. And I don't think I can possibly be as interesting as tax guy but after many months lurking and cheering silently for all of you, I felt a need to post on this thread.

Life, in my experience is random not linear. I grew up in a lower middle class family, attended a decent State University and a second tier Graduate School. I was unemployed/underemployed for periods during my 20s, changed jobs several times due to family issues and made some mistakes along the way including a failed first marriage. Noone on TLS would have approved of my choices and probably would have predicted that I was doomed to be mired in mediocrity.

I worked hard and had some luck but am never the smartest, best educated or best looking person in a room. Nontheless, I am an executive with a Fortune 200 company earning well over $1 million per year and have had a truly rewarding, fulfilling and enriching career. After 30 years I am still excited to go to work most days.

Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.

People who apply to law school are adults. If you're old enough to vote and drink, you're an adult. Part of being an adult is learning to have impulse control. Just because you want to be a lawyer does not automatically mean you should be one (at any cost).

Maybe you are right that no one on the TLS of today would have approved of your choices, we don't know what those choices are. But that is a reflection of what this economy is. Blood, sweat and tears may have been enough to get things to work out in the end for someone a generation ago, but it just isn't enough today. To that end, I think if TLS existed 20/30 years ago, posters would not so readily go to 'don't go!' as the default whenever they get asked whether someone should go to law school.

Maybe this is harsh but I am definitely of the school of thought that in most cases lower ranked schools even with full ride and stipend is not worth it. Law school is three years of opportunity costs, thats three years you could have been developing your career in another field. Preferably a career in a field which is not shrinking and whichs business model is not under attack.

[crit_racer]

... Granted, the legal market is never going to bounce back up to where it was in the late 90s/early 00s where it seemed that law firms were throwing money at anyone with a JD...

Never is a long time. I bet it'll probably be pretty freaking awesome during the organ cloning bubble of 2031.

Never Let Me Go.

love that book

[geoduck]

You're accurate that the risk/reward balance is definitely a bit heavily weighted on the risk side of things for people $200k in debt without a job

Understatement of the century.

The flexibility of the debt makes it not that huge an understatement. It's not like a mortgage where what you pay is what you pay regardless of what you earn. It's also literally impossible for any of us to know what the long path will bring to these people. It is certainly an unfavorable position which I'd rather not (and fortunately won't) be in, but it isn't a death sentence.

[bk1]

Unless those hardworking grads are dead, it's nowhere near the end. You're accurate that the risk/reward balance is definitely a bit heavily weighted on the risk side of things for people $200k in debt without a job out the door, but statistically the gamble will work out for some of them and most likely those for which it does will be those "working hard and being resilient" rather than the ones that give up. The others will blog about how big a scam law school is and eventually die in the poorhouse.

Just because it is more likely to work out for people who are hardworking/resilient does not mean that a majority of the time it will work out for those who are hardworking/resilient.

[DoubleChecks]

Okay I will quote the part that is most problematic:

Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.

And yes, I do think that spending 3 years of your life at SCU for a less than 1 in 4 chance at full time legal employment, even with 0 debt, is probably a bad idea financially. Would I advise somebody to take it? Sure if they really really wanted to be a lawyer and that was their bast chance they could possibly get. But I find it highly suspect that someone could get that as their best offer, not to mention that most of these schools have scholarship stipulations and almost none of them offer stipends to cover CoL.

Maybe him and I differ from the definition of what "working out in the end" is.

Clearly you do differ. Things working out in the end could either mean "enjoying your job, having healthy kids, having hobbies, having strong relationships" or "being guaranteed a legal job within 4 hours of graduation" . Granted Tiger Dad makes bank, but I do believe he was leaning towards definition A while you are firmly tied to definition B.

uh not to take you guys off track from your already off track trajectory, lol but do kwais and supporters actually believe when Tiger Dad said "everything will work out" he meant family, personal satisfication, etc.? I mean, maybe he did, and i personally define that as a big part of working out, but if that IS what he meant, he went about it in a very disingenuous way. He preceded "everything will work out" with a story about how he was unemployed in his 20s, made some bad decisions, and is now making over $1M a yr as a Fortune 200 exec (granted in a job he loves, but ppl tend to love jobs they are good at). Seriously?

His story is nice, and they happen, but I have to agree with Patriot almost on every post he's made in this thread. For most people, things do NOT work out when you make bad decisions. Sometimes they still do, but they tend not to -- isn't that basic human logic? Even if you love doing law, most ppl on TLS are not old enough to actually know if they will love the law (just the idea of it) OR love it enough in the face of harsh realities.

I'm not saying tiger dad's post was bad -- it's inspirational, that's nice -- but i personally would recommend keeping it in perspective. People will end up misinterpreting his msg as "oh let me just do what i think i love now and it will all work out [followed by bad decision]" because PEOPLE MAKE BAD DECISIONS, esp. in their 20s. And for most it will not work out; hell, what you love will probably change in a few years.

The mentality just rubs against me because it goes against how i've lived my life -- I challenge myself but i dont think i can do everything. It works for me; the other mentality of "shoot for the stars" is nice too, and some need to have it so we can have the Bill Gates or whatever of the world, but the cold fact is most people like that will not succeed. I could easily match tiger dad's anecdote with 10 or more anecdotes of ppl who made bad decisions in their 20s and it did NOT work out (in any way, shape or form).

[whymeohgodno]

You're accurate that the risk/reward balance is definitely a bit heavily weighted on the risk side of things for people $200k in debt without a job

Understatement of the century.

The flexibility of the debt makes it not that huge an understatement. It's not like a mortgage where what you pay is what you pay regardless of what you earn. It's also literally impossible for any of us to know what the long path will bring to these people. It is certainly an unfavorable position which I'd rather not (and fortunately won't) be in, but it isn't a death sentence.

Tell me what flexibility awaits TTT grads with 200k debt and below median grades? They are pretty much going to be debt slaves for the next 10+ years.

[geoduck]

Unless those hardworking grads are dead, it's nowhere near the end. You're accurate that the risk/reward balance is definitely a bit heavily weighted on the risk side of things for people $200k in debt without a job out the door, but statistically the gamble will work out for some of them and most likely those for which it does will be those "working hard and being resilient" rather than the ones that give up. The others will blog about how big a scam law school is and eventually die in the poorhouse.

Just because it is more likely to work out for people who are hardworking/resilient does not mean that a majority of the time it will work out for those who are hardworking/resilient.

He also didn't say it would always work out in a legal career. Someone truly hardworking and resilient will find a niche somewhere. Sadly, we don't always find out who is "truly" until the end of the game.

[geoduck]

You're accurate that the risk/reward balance is definitely a bit heavily weighted on the risk side of things for people $200k in debt without a job

Understatement of the century.

The flexibility of the debt makes it not that huge an understatement. It's not like a mortgage where what you pay is what you pay regardless of what you earn. It's also literally impossible for any of us to know what the long path will bring to these people. It is certainly an unfavorable position which I'd rather not (and fortunately won't) be in, but it isn't a death sentence.

Tell me what flexibility awaits TTT grads with 200k debt and below median grades? They are pretty much going to be debt slaves for the next 10+ years.

And? Our whole country is a debt slave.

Edit: Also, top 100 wouldn't be TTT grads. T/TT grads. There is a difference between Cooley and DePaul yaknow.

[whymeohgodno]

And? Our whole country is a debt slave.

Edit: Also, top 100 wouldn't be TTT grads. T/TT grads. There is a difference between Cooley and DePaul yaknow.

You don't address the question but instead reply with an inaccurate blanket statement. Great. I'm dealing with someone who might be illiterate.

[DoubleChecks]

Unless those hardworking grads are dead, it's nowhere near the end. You're accurate that the risk/reward balance is definitely a bit heavily weighted on the risk side of things for people $200k in debt without a job out the door, but statistically the gamble will work out for some of them and most likely those for which it does will be those "working hard and being resilient" rather than the ones that give up. The others will blog about how big a scam law school is and eventually die in the poorhouse.

Just because it is more likely to work out for people who are hardworking/resilient does not mean that a majority of the time it will work out for those who are hardworking/resilient.

He also didn't say it would always work out in a legal career. Someone truly hardworking and resilient will find a niche somewhere. Sadly, we don't always find out who is "truly" until the end of the game.

Sure, we can keep interpreting his statement in different ways; in some of the interpretations, I agree. I just think, given the context of the post, it could easily be misleading for some ppl on TLS (and clearly it is with all these varying interpretations).

I mean, if his statement was, work your hardest at what you love and it'll work out in some fashion or another at some later point of your life....then yeah i guess thats a decently fair statement...

[bk1]

He also didn't say it would always work out in a legal career. Someone truly hardworking and resilient will find a niche somewhere. Sadly, we don't always find out who is "truly" until the end of the game.

And this is where my problem with "working out in the end" comes. This person would have been better off had they not gone to law school at all. My point was that law school should either make you money or get you a career that you desire (e.g. being a lawyer). Since law school is doing neither of those for someone who graduates and doesn't become a lawyer (e.g. the hardworking/resilient person in your example), then why go? To me that isn't really "working out in the end" because not going at all would have put that person in a much better position than going to law school did.

[geoduck]

And? Our whole country is a debt slave.

Edit: Also, top 100 wouldn't be TTT grads. T/TT grads. There is a difference between Cooley and DePaul yaknow.

You don't address the question but instead reply with an inaccurate blanket statement. Great. I'm dealing with someone who might be illiterate.

Graduate school loan debt is flexible due to programs such as IBR which allow the payments to shift with your income. You will be stuck paying off for years, I haven't denied that. I also haven't denied that a lot of people will be screwed. The odds are against T30-100 grads who graduate with 100-200k in debt. It is a livable screwing though and some of them will succeed in the short term, and many more will succeed at something in the long term. And some will die in the poor house. It's a known risk.