ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings) Forum

[Unemployed]

You people are really dense. I've spoken to people at CLS and many CLS admits. Even they, the people you would most expect to beat the oh we are so much better than NYU drum, consider the schools to be peers. I've also heard the same thing from a Middle America law school dean. Perhaps there are a few lawyers who see a difference but honestly, considering that the quality of American law schools ranges from People’s College of Law to Yale, any gradation would be so fine as to be imperceptible and that it would ever end up costing someone a job opportunity - expecialy in a large city.

It's fake humility

Besides, I would question the wisdom of badmouthing a rival school in front of admits. It tends to leave a negative impression (insecurity, douchebaggery, etc). Ask a Yalie about Harvard. Or a Stanford student about HYP (hi crackberry!). Or an NYU UG about Columbia.

[badfish]

Please, don't feed the trolls kids.

All of this hype about peer assessment ratings etc. is basically 0L's blowing hot air and trolls fanning the flames.

While there are some differences between CCN, they are mostly cultural/curricular.

me = likely NYU-attending 0L who is willing to admit that CLS more prestigious than NYU overall, and that CLS has the edge over NYU in terms of extra-NYC hiring. I still think this RealTalk guy is a piece of shit.

Let me clarify, I'm not saying there aren't definite advantages to going to CLS, I think there are (see lay prestige and IMO an awesome alumni network).

At the same time, what most OL's on this board seem to forget is the fact that you're going to have to do extremely well at CLS in order to get a shot at one of those elite firms/clerkships that people seem to be pining for. This basically means that for a majority of students,after their 1L it won't matter which school they chose out of the 3 because they're essentially out of the running for the very top firm/clerkship positions.

Now, assuming you would do equally well at any of CCN (b/c the caliber of student is pretty much identical) what these people are suggesting is that someone from CLS will have an edge on someone from NYU even though their scores are identical. This is based on a strange calculus by looking at a peer assessment score that is only returned by 20% or so of people to whom it is sent out and saying see, some self-selecting lawyers/judges think CLS is slightly better than NYU so it must be true!!! This methodology is fundamentally flawed.

I think that the alumni network might be the biggest difference. CLS has held a top 5 position for much longer than NYU (yes i know we're 6 now but you get the picture). For the firms that aren't "elite" but still pay market rate, a CLS student might have some kind of edge over an NYU student due to alumni relations or whatever. At this point, however, what will matter more than anything else is how well you interview at OCI.

The only other major advantage that CLS has over NYU is lay prestige which should only matter if you are planning on leaving the practice of law. On this point, I think people grossly overestimate the power of the Columbia name. Having lived on the West Coast for quite some time, most average people out there have no idea that Columbia is such an awesome university. People are subject to their regional biases. East Coasters pine over the ivies, but the only school that everyone in the country pines over is Harvard.

[Unemployed]

Please, don't feed the trolls kids.

All of this hype about peer assessment ratings etc. is basically 0L's blowing hot air and trolls fanning the flames.

While there are some differences between CCN, they are mostly cultural/curricular.

me = likely NYU-attending 0L who is willing to admit that CLS more prestigious than NYU overall, and that CLS has the edge over NYU in terms of extra-NYC hiring. I still think this RealTalk guy is a piece of shit.

Let me clarify, I'm not saying there aren't definite advantages to going to CLS, I think there are (see lay prestige and IMO an awesome alumni network).

At the same time, what most OL's on this board seem to forget is the fact that you're going to have to do extremely well at CLS in order to get a shot at one of those elite firms/clerkships that people seem to be pining for. This basically means that for a majority of students,after their 1L it won't matter which school they chose out of the 3 because they're essentially out of the running for the very top firm/clerkship positions.

Now, assuming you would do equally well at any of CCN (b/c the caliber of student is pretty much identical) what these people are suggesting is that someone from CLS will have an edge on someone from NYU even though their scores are identical. This is based on a strange calculus by looking at a peer assessment score that is only returned by 20% or so of people to whom it is sent out and saying see, some self-selecting lawyers/judges think CLS is slightly better than NYU so it must be true!!! This methodology is fundamentally flawed.

I think that the alumni network might be the biggest difference. CLS has held a top 5 position for much longer than NYU (yes i know we're 6 now but you get the picture). For the firms that aren't "elite" but still pay market rate, a CLS student might have some kind of edge over an NYU student due to alumni relations or whatever. At this point, however, what will matter more than anything else is how well you interview at OCI.

The only other major advantage that CLS has over NYU is lay prestige which should only if you are planning on leaving the practice of law. On this point, I think people grossly overestimate the power of the Columbia name. Having lived on the West Coast for quite some time, most average people out there have no idea that Columbia is such an awesome university. People are subject to their regional biases. East Coasters pine over the ivies, but the only school that everyone in the country pines over is Harvard.

This is too thoughtful a response to a mediocre flame that is RealTalk. He was much better here:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 2&t=112515

Much of Columbia's advantage, if any, was wiped out during last year's OCI. I don't think the two school were quite equal during the bubble, but ITE, firms don't want mediocre students from either school.

[Tofu]

On this point, I think people grossly overestimate the power of the Columbia name. Having lived on the West Coast for quite some time, most average people out there have no idea that Columbia is such an awesome university. People are subject to their regional biases. East Coasters pine over the ivies, but the only school that everyone in the country pines over is Harvard.

eh, i think yale is up there, too

pre-december 2009 TLS, i've always gotten the image that cls and nyu have pretty much been equals in terms of job opportunities in the legal field.

[M51]

Let me clarify, I'm not saying there aren't definite advantages to going to CLS, I think there are (see lay prestige and IMO an awesome alumni network).

At the same time, what most OL's on this board seem to forget is the fact that you're going to have to do extremely well at CLS in order to get a shot at one of those elite firms/clerkships that people seem to be pining for. This basically means that for a majority of students,after their 1L it won't matter which school they chose out of the 3 because they're essentially out of the running for the very top firm/clerkship positions.
an NYU student due to alumni relations or whatever. At this point, however, what will matter more than anything else is how well you interview at OCI.

I think you overestimate what is needed to land an "elite" firm/clerkship, even ITE. If a majority in both schools are out of the running for V10, it's a bare majority. Plenty of people w/ barely above medians at great firms at CLS. I assume this is also true at NYU. But I agree, interview skills are much more important than most people think.

I will say this about CLS v NYU, career services around here has been throwing out things like "better OCI than our peer schools this year" on a pretty regular basis since November. I doubt it's anything too significant (probably just a couple of percentage points), but it's been consistent enough that I don't think it's just puffery.

[FrankReynolds]

better OCI than our peer schools this year

Again, I really think this is mostly explained by the type of students that attend Columbia. They generally are more likely to WANT to work a a big firm. My friends at NYU with decent grades who struck out at OCI pretty much all admitted they didn't really want to work at a firm and dreaded interviewing. Pre-ITE, it didn't matter; they still got jobs. Now it matters, so schools like Columbia fare a bit better-but not because they offer better classes, services, training, etc. Everyone seems to forget recruiting is all on a case-by-case basis. You can't base your decision on what school to attend by viewing slight differences in job placement when the schools have disparate student populations.

[imchuckbass58]

You can't base your decision on what school to attend by viewing slight differences in job placement when the schools have disparate student populations.

I think people drastically overstate how different school populations are. At pretty much every law school every incoming class wants pretty much the same thing. The vast majority of 1Ls at Columbia come in wanting to do PI, government or academia. Many of them admit they will go to a big firm for a while to pay off loans or get trained or whatever, but I can literally count on one hand the number of people I know at Columbia whose affirmative ambition it is to become a partner at a big law firm.

I know probably two dozen people who currently attend or attended NYU, and they are exactly the same as Columbia kids. At both schools generally people come in with public sector ambitions, end up going to a law firm for financial reasons, after which some people decide they like the work/the lifestyle and stay, and some people leave to do something more along the lines of what they wanted originally.

I think a pretty big misconception is that a majority of CLS came out of the womb wanting to draft credit agreements - if there's a difference, it's something like 15% at NYU vs. 20% at CLS who genuinely want to work for a big firm for its own sake. People perceive NYU as "more PI focused" and they do have great programs which are worth looking at, but you have to realize that within 5 or 10 percentage points, 1) the classes come in with the exact same interests, and 2) the classes end up doing the exact same things.

[FrankReynolds]

if there's a difference, it's something like 15% at NYU vs. 20% at CLS

And that makes up all if not more than Columbia's "better" results at OCI...

[Unemployed]

better OCI than our peer schools this year

Again, I really think this is mostly explained by the type of students that attend Columbia. They generally are more likely to WANT to work a a big firm. My friends at NYU with decent grades who struck out at OCI pretty much all admitted they didn't really want to work at a firm and dreaded interviewing. Pre-ITE, it didn't matter; they still got jobs. Now it matters, so schools like Columbia fare a bit better-but not because they offer better classes, services, training, etc. Everyone seems to forget recruiting is all on a case-by-case basis. You can't base your decision on what school to attend by viewing slight differences in job placement when the schools have disparate student populations.

Are you serious? They didn't do well because they didn't give 100%? They didn't really want the jobs they were interviewing for? ITE, with $200k in debt? Do you know how absurd that sounds? Are you sure it's not a bunch of defensive people trying to rationalize the unfortunate results of their OCI?

I guess I'm too much of a "Columbia type" to really understand any of it.

[FrankReynolds]

They didn't really want the jobs they were interviewing for? ITE, with $200k in debt?

If you think this is absurd, you either do not attend a top law school yet, or are oblivious.

Why do you think so many people leave after 2 years at a firm--they never wanted the job in the first place? When the economy was booming, the top law firms needed a lot more rotating associates to do the work 3rd+ year associates wouldn't/don't want to do. Now associates of all level are afraid enough of layoffs that they will take on more mundane tasks, and with less workload, firms need less associates. And when firms hire less associates, obviously the students who don't really want the job will be weeded out.

This unbelievably low level of business acumen and basic knowledge on this board is mind-boggling.

[Unemployed]

They didn't really want the jobs they were interviewing for? ITE, with $200k in debt?

If you think this is absurd, you either do not attend a top law school yet, or are oblivious.

Why do you think so many people leave after 2 years at a firm--they never wanted the job in the first place? When the economy was booming, the top law firms needed a lot more rotating associates to do the work 3rd+ year associates wouldn't/don't want to do. Now associates of all level are afraid enough of layoffs that they will take on more mundane tasks, and with less workload, firms need less associates. And when firms hire less associates, obviously the students who don't really want the job will be weeded out.

This unbelievably low level of business acumen and basic knowledge on this board is mind-boggling.

I understand most people who go into biglaw aren't cut out for it and they know it, but the attraction to take a market pay job is obviously there (six figure debt anyone?). Otherwise, OCI would not be the kind of frenzied shitshow it is.

What I find absurd is not the fact that there are people who do not want to do biglaw in the long run, but your argument that this awareness somehow affects their demeanor during recruitment. You have 200k in debt, PI and government jobs are nearly impossible to get ITE, and one of the most hassle-free ways to deal with your debt in the interim is to get a biglaw job out of school through OCI. You may not want to stay in biglaw forever, but you recognize all of this because you signed up for OCI. If you don't give 100% knowing all of this, some would call THAT low level of business acumen. Or a bunch of spoiled kids wasting time. I have too much respect for NYU to actually draw this conclusion.

[FrankReynolds]

Have you never seen a law student? Tons are aloof, quiet, and generally awful interviewers.

[Unemployed]

Have you never seen a law student? Tons are aloof, quiet, and generally awful interviewers.

Bingo!

That has nothing to do with whether you really want the job, does it?

[of Benito Cereno]

They didn't really want the jobs they were interviewing for? ITE, with $200k in debt?

If you think this is absurd, you either do not attend a top law school yet, or are oblivious.

Why do you think so many people leave after 2 years at a firm--they never wanted the job in the first place? When the economy was booming, the top law firms needed a lot more rotating associates to do the work 3rd+ year associates wouldn't/don't want to do. Now associates of all level are afraid enough of layoffs that they will take on more mundane tasks, and with less workload, firms need less associates. And when firms hire less associates, obviously the students who don't really want the job will be weeded out.

This unbelievably low level of business acumen and basic knowledge on this board is mind-boggling.

I understand most people who go into biglaw aren't cut out for it and they know it, but the attraction to take a market pay job is obviously there (six figure debt anyone?). Otherwise, OCI would not be the kind of frenzied shitshow it is.

What I find absurd is not the fact that there are people who do not want to do biglaw in the long run, but your argument that this awareness somehow affects their demeanor during recruitment. You have 200k in debt, PI and government jobs are nearly impossible to get ITE, and one of the most hassle-free ways to deal with your debt in the interim is to get a biglaw job out of school through OCI. You may not want to stay in biglaw forever, but you recognize all of this because you signed up for OCI. If you don't give 100% knowing all of this, some would call THAT low level of business acumen. Or a bunch of spoiled kids wasting time. I have too much respect for NYU to actually draw this conclusion.

if you go into a biglaw job knowing you just want to use it to pay off your ~150k debt there is no reason you can't pay it off in 3 years. as a result, very very few students outside of yls really don't take seriously biglaw opportunities. i know many people who went into law school planning on PI but also reasonable enough to know that two years in a biglaw firm made a ton of sense (1. you learn how to be a lawyer 2. pay off debt burden very quickly). PI and governement jobs don't look on people coming out of biglaw jobs as sell-outs; they see them as well-trained actual lawyers.

[badfish]

Let me clarify, I'm not saying there aren't definite advantages to going to CLS, I think there are (see lay prestige and IMO an awesome alumni network).

At the same time, what most OL's on this board seem to forget is the fact that you're going to have to do extremely well at CLS in order to get a shot at one of those elite firms/clerkships that people seem to be pining for. This basically means that for a majority of students,after their 1L it won't matter which school they chose out of the 3 because they're essentially out of the running for the very top firm/clerkship positions.
an NYU student due to alumni relations or whatever. At this point, however, what will matter more than anything else is how well you interview at OCI.

I think you overestimate what is needed to land an "elite" firm/clerkship, even ITE. If a majority in both schools are out of the running for V10, it's a bare majority. Plenty of people w/ barely above medians at great firms at CLS. I assume this is also true at NYU. But I agree, interview skills are much more important than most people think.

I will say this about CLS v NYU, career services around here has been throwing out things like "better OCI than our peer schools this year" on a pretty regular basis since November. I doubt it's anything too significant (probably just a couple of percentage points), but it's been consistent enough that I don't think it's just puffery.

Maybe you're right. This entire thing is so stupid, I need to study. lol

[RealTalk]

I cant believe people are actually comparing CLS to NYU. Columbia actually has prestige that spans the globe while NYU is like a state school to everyone outside NYC.

I ain't going to either school eventhough I got into both. But there is no way on earth I could see anyone who got into CLS go to NYU instead. That person shows they just don't have respect for themselves.

I think a bunch of NYU people who got rejected by CLS are trying to make it seem like they are peers.

IMO there are only 4 law schools in this country worth anything. And NYU ain't one of them.

Wow, this post smacks of extreme elitism. Only 4 schools in the country are worth anything? Btw, I'm sorry we don't all have the luxury of getting into Harvard with a 3.3 gpa and 164 LSAT. You should consider yourself lucky you got in where you did and hope that with your biglaw salary you can find a doctor to remove your head that is currently stuck up your ass.

Edit: The only 4 law schools worth anything comment is interesting considering you considered going to Vandy. Is Vandy one of the four schools or has your head gone even farther up your ass since you got into Harvard?

yes I am all about prestige......IMO nothing else matters......I don't care about happiness or all that other junk people around here talk about..........all I care about is impressing other people with my resume......B.S.E. from Princeton......J.D. from Harvard..........those are basically the most prestigious degrees that a person can get......in that sense I'll always be the most accomplished person in a room

Oh and I only applied to schools like NYU, Vandy, etc. so I could use them as bargaining chips when negotiating grants.....no other reason.......I probably would've NOT gone to law school if I didn't get into Harvard

[RealTalk]

Please, don't feed the trolls kids.

All of this hype about peer assessment ratings etc. is basically 0L's blowing hot air and trolls fanning the flames.

While there are some differences between CCN, they are mostly cultural/curricular.

LOL

in terms of placement in the most prestigious firms on wall street, NYU doesn't come close CLS or Chicago

there are SIGNIFICANT differences between the schools....stop pretending otherwise

[mwazaumoja]

I cant believe people are actually comparing CLS to NYU. Columbia actually has prestige that spans the globe while NYU is like a state school to everyone outside NYC.

I ain't going to either school eventhough I got into both. But there is no way on earth I could see anyone who got into CLS go to NYU instead. That person shows they just don't have respect for themselves.

I think a bunch of NYU people who got rejected by CLS are trying to make it seem like they are peers.

IMO there are only 4 law schools in this country worth anything. And NYU ain't one of them.

Wow, this post smacks of extreme elitism. Only 4 schools in the country are worth anything? Btw, I'm sorry we don't all have the luxury of getting into Harvard with a 3.3 gpa and 164 LSAT. You should consider yourself lucky you got in where you did and hope that with your biglaw salary you can find a doctor to remove your head that is currently stuck up your ass.

Edit: The only 4 law schools worth anything comment is interesting considering you considered going to Vandy. Is Vandy one of the four schools or has your head gone even farther up your ass since you got into Harvard?

yes I am all about prestige......IMO nothing else matters......I don't care about happiness or all that other junk people around here talk about..........all I care about is impressing other people with my resume......B.S.E. from Princeton......J.D. from Harvard..........those are basically the most prestigious degrees that a person can get......in that sense I'll always be the most accomplished person in a room

Oh and I only applied to schools like NYU, Vandy, etc. so I could use them as bargaining chips when negotiating grants.....no other reason.......I probably would've NOT gone to law school if I didn't get into Harvard

Excuse me for the length of this post but I have three serious problems with what you said, so hopefully I can show you a flaw or two in your logic:

1.) Your values are completely off. Thinking that prestige is all that matters is not going to make you into a happy law student, and unhappy law students tend to become unhappy lawyers. I hope you realize this, and start looking towards living a good life rather than defining it by 'signals' of success.

2.) You're hardly going to have the best credentials at Harvard. Did you graduate Summa with an BSE? What about the person in your section who has their Phd in Economics from M.I.T. or Harvard or Princeton? Do you think when you're applying to firms that their won't be tons of people with engineering degrees from good undergrads? Further, what about the people who were Mayors of towns? Do you think your two degress are that impressive compared to the guy who graduated from (to use your school as an example) with a Masters from Woodrow Wilson who worked in the Foreign Service for 5 years? We have tons of you guys with BSEs (from Princeton, Stanford, M.I.T.) in law school, and that isn't particularly special. It just means you'll probably go into patent law!

What is really impressive in law school is people who have actually done things, amazing things. Not people who just got good grades that isn't nearly enough.

3.) As you are also a black man, I'm bothered by your attitude. You have lower numbers than I did when applying to law school. You know damn well the reason you applied to Vandy, it was the same reason I applied to UCLA. You didn't know how far a boost from affirmative action would get you. I'm truly happy for you, and I am happy to see minorities have the chance to achieve top-notch legal educations, but being black you can't afford to be arrogant. Please, trust me on that one.

It's people like you who aren't getting jobs at Harvard, and not because you aren't qualified to work at a so-called 'big-law' firm but rather because you consider so many legal jobs that still pay $160k+ annually to be beneath you ("I'd never work at that firm! It's ranked 50 by Vault!"). Further, they can sense when you're being an asshole in an interview. My grades my first semester were mediocre but I still managed to snag a mildly prestigious summer public interest fellowship (which I ultimately turned down to work for a governmental organization I have a lot of conviction in). You know how I snagged the fellowship though? I went in, and was a nice guy. People like nice guys for the same reason they hate assholes.

So in conclusion, I ask that you stop trying to be a know-it-all-asshole because before you got into Harvard (and before you started posting on TLS) you were probably a decent person. I hope you regain your decency, and live a long life full of happiness and success.

[Ragged]

I cant believe people are actually comparing CLS to NYU. Columbia actually has prestige that spans the globe while NYU is like a state school to everyone outside NYC.

I ain't going to either school eventhough I got into both. But there is no way on earth I could see anyone who got into CLS go to NYU instead. That person shows they just don't have respect for themselves.

I think a bunch of NYU people who got rejected by CLS are trying to make it seem like they are peers.

IMO there are only 4 law schools in this country worth anything. And NYU ain't one of them.

Wow, this post smacks of extreme elitism. Only 4 schools in the country are worth anything? Btw, I'm sorry we don't all have the luxury of getting into Harvard with a 3.3 gpa and 164 LSAT. You should consider yourself lucky you got in where you did and hope that with your biglaw salary you can find a doctor to remove your head that is currently stuck up your ass.

Edit: The only 4 law schools worth anything comment is interesting considering you considered going to Vandy. Is Vandy one of the four schools or has your head gone even farther up your ass since you got into Harvard?

yes I am all about prestige......IMO nothing else matters......I don't care about happiness or all that other junk people around here talk about..........all I care about is impressing other people with my resume......B.S.E. from Princeton......J.D. from Harvard..........those are basically the most prestigious degrees that a person can get......in that sense I'll always be the most accomplished person in a room

Oh and I only applied to schools like NYU, Vandy, etc. so I could use them as bargaining chips when negotiating grants.....no other reason.......I probably would've NOT gone to law school if I didn't get into Harvard

But judging by your pathetic LSAT, probably not the brightest. Enjoy your URM status, you dummy.

[superserial]

ITT: We perpetuate stereotypes about law students.

[badfish]

Please, don't feed the trolls kids.

All of this hype about peer assessment ratings etc. is basically 0L's blowing hot air and trolls fanning the flames.

While there are some differences between CCN, they are mostly cultural/curricular.

LOL

in terms of placement in the most prestigious firms on wall street, NYU doesn't come close CLS or Chicago

there are SIGNIFICANT differences between the schools....stop pretending otherwise

[clintonius]

Let's also keep in mind that none of the V10 firms actually maintains an office on Wall Street. Troll has his industries confused?

[imchuckbass58]

Let's also keep in mind that none of the V10 firms actually maintains an office on Wall Street. Troll has his industries confused?

Well, Cleary and S&C.

[clintonius]

They're close to, but not actually on, Wall Street. Cleary is right next to the WTC, and S&C is on the East River a little south of Wall. Not that it matters much. I just really fucking hate that guy.

[imchuckbass58]

They're close to, but not actually on, Wall Street. Cleary is right next to the WTC, and S&C is on the East River a little south of Wall. Not that it matters much. I just really fucking hate that guy.

Word.