C/O 2017 Median LSAT/GPA/Class Size Forum

[Rigo]

THIS THREAD IS FOR MEDIANS

And which median did you just reveal? I love riddles!

[03152016]

Doesn't fordham have terrible numbers for a school in one of the better legal markets?

Fordham has good employment numbers. The reason going to Fordham is virtually never going to be a good decision is because its extremely stingy with scholarship money.

fordham is very high on the list of the trappiest trap schools, precisely bc people think it has very good placement
but a school with 63.4% employment and a jaw-dropping 26.6% underemployment does not have "good numbers", and is not a "top school", even if the people who do manage to find work have an okay shot at biglaw

[bugsy33]

Sure I can tell the story again: You've been had. You're wasting your time and money.

Had by the top-25 employment stats or the 30% biglaw+fedclerk rate or maybe by the strong LRAP program for PI?

There are very few better choices in the Midwest for law school, and I know of none that are cheaper.

3.5% fedclerk is not good. A nine-month employment score of 63% is not good. A 6% public service score is not good. If you strike out at the 25% shot for a big firm, things are probably not looking good for you. Mal's overstating it but he has to w/ his shtick; you're definitely taking a risk by going there if you are seeking gainful employment -- don't get cocky in the school-inflated "top-25" employment stats.

Slightly better than a coin flip's chance of finding any legal job 9 months out is not overstating anything.

That's not an accurate statement. The LST score is 72%. That ranks it #24 in legal employment. A coin flip is 50%. UIUC gives you a 22% better chance than a coin flip. http://www.lstscorereports.com/national/

Not sure where all of this UIUC hate is coming from. It performs similarly to WUSTL, ND, and Fordham, but at a lower cost.

[03152016]

really
you're not sure where all of this uiuc hate is coming from

[Moneytrees]

Doesn't fordham have terrible numbers for a school in one of the better legal markets?

Fordham has good employment numbers. The reason going to Fordham is virtually never going to be a good decision is because its extremely stingy with scholarship money.

fordham is very high on the list of the trappiest trap schools, precisely bc people think it has very good placement
but a school with 63.4% employment and a jaw-dropping 26.6% underemployment does not have "good numbers", and is not a "top school", even if the people who do manage to find work have an okay shot at biglaw

It's good relative to other non T14 schools. Take that for what it's worth. You're right, a 65% chance of becoming an attorney is bad. But over 35% chance at Biglaw/clerkship is better than all but around 20 schools in the country. Let's not forget that "top" schools like Washington St. Louis, Emory and Minnesota have comparable or worse employment numbers than Fordham.

That being said, I agree with you that it's a trap. My cousin got 10 grand a year from them with a 170/3.6. It's shameful, quite frankly. They know that they can lure students in with the flashy Biglaw numbers, so they've hiked up tuition and barely give out any money. Going to Fordham without a significant scholarship is a huge risk.

[bjsesq]

Not sure where all of this UIUC hate is coming from.

The Ballad of UIUC Law

Let me tell you a little story about a man named Pless
a lying fat bastard with a lady sized chest
and to achieve fame
or just beat the game
he lied about numbers, which is pretty lame.

Fucking students in the ass,
to inflate the class.

Some people thought the something was up
With these numbers Paul pulled from his butt
so what do you know
his numbers were show
Pless was analized with an external probe

Students were too,
just look at you!

It's now years later and they are still fixing shit
wrought by Paulo and his delicious man tits
now it's not my biz
to get up in your shiz,
but your school sucks, man. it is what it is

[McAvoy]

Had by the top-25 employment stats or the 30% biglaw+fedclerk rate or maybe by the strong LRAP program for PI?

There are very few better choices in the Midwest for law school, and I know of none that are cheaper.

3.5% fedclerk is not good. A nine-month employment score of 63% is not good. A 6% public service score is not good. If you strike out at the 25% shot for a big firm, things are probably not looking good for you. Mal's overstating it but he has to w/ his shtick; you're definitely taking a risk by going there if you are seeking gainful employment -- don't get cocky in the school-inflated "top-25" employment stats.

Slightly better than a coin flip's chance of finding any legal job 9 months out is not overstating anything.

That's not an accurate statement. The LST score is 72%. That ranks it #24 in legal employment. A coin flip is 50%. UIUC gives you a 22% better chance than a coin flip. http://www.lstscorereports.com/national/

Not sure where all of this UIUC hate is coming from. It performs similarly to WUSTL, ND, and Fordham, but at a lower cost.

take out school funded bro

[bugsy33]

take out school funded bro

Why? Any school has the option to provide one year fellowships for their grads. 11/10 times I'd rather have a school funded legal job where I can get a year of legal experience rather than work in a non law job. My alumni mentor landed a great PI gig after his fellowship ended. It's pretty damn common to turn a SFJ into a salaried position.

The c/o 2014 stats are rumored to have already surpassed 2013.

[03152016]

let's stop pretending that "101+ attorney firm" jobs make for a "top school"
if you're going to go to law school, you have to do the legwork

percentage hired through oci? percentage reporting a salary? size of big firm?

what percentage of the class is temping? what percentage has only part-time employment? what percentage is completely jobless? or working at mcdonalds?

school funded rate? employed at graduation rate, if available? employed 9 months out? employed in "business", "education", and other nebulous categories? a3 clerkships? call the school and ask for info on state clerkships. very competitive (ny)? very uncompetitive (nj)?

are grads confined to one region? how is the market in that region? any placement trends? are class sizes being reduced? how do grads feel? current students?

how is the public service side of the equation looking? generous lrap program? pi job fairs? summer funding?

how about fin aid? what percentage of the class gets money? 25/50/75th? are the schollies conditional? how are the named programs?

please
let's stop pointing at biglaw numbers and saying, "WELL THAT'S A TOP SCHOOL"
it does such a disservice to prospective students trying to make real decisions about where to attend

[03152016]

Not sure where all of this UIUC hate is coming from.

The Ballad of UIUC Law

Let me tell you a little story about a man named Pless
a lying fat bastard with a lady sized chest
and to achieve fame
or just beat the game
he lied about numbers, which is pretty lame.

Fucking students in the ass,
to inflate the class.

Some people thought the something was up
With these numbers Paul pulled from his butt
so what do you know
his numbers were show
Pless was analized with an external probe

Students were too,
just look at you!

It's now years later and they are still fixing shit
wrought by Paulo and his delicious man tits
now it's not my biz
to get up in your shiz,
but your school sucks, man. it is what it is

fucking bravo man

[Moneytrees]

let's stop pretending that "101+ attorney firm" jobs make for a "top school"
if you're going to go to law school, you have to do the legwork

percentage hired through oci? percentage reporting a salary? size of big firm?

what percentage of the class is temping? what percentage has only part-time employment? what percentage is completely jobless? or working at mcdonalds?

school funded rate? employed at graduation rate, if available? employed 9 months out? employed in "business", "education", and other nebulous categories? a3 clerkships? call the school and ask for info on state clerkships. very competitive (ny)? very uncompetitive (nj)?

are grads confined to one region? how is the market in that region? any placement trends? are class sizes being reduced? how do grads feel? current students?

how is the public service side of the equation looking? generous lrap program? pi job fairs? summer funding?

how about fin aid? what percentage of the class gets money? 25/50/75th? are the schollies conditional? how are the named programs?

please
let's stop pointing at biglaw numbers and saying, "WELL THAT'S A TOP SCHOOL"
it does such a disservice to prospective students trying to make real decisions about where to attend

I never said Fordham is a top school, nor do I think it is, nor do I think it matters. I agree with everything you said. My point is that from a purely Biglaw standpoint, Fordham does well for itself. Its employment numbers are not "terrible", but are actually pretty good for a non T14 school.

This obviously does not mean that a prospective student should go to Fordham just because it has relatively good Biglaw numbers.

[Rigo]

Not sure where all of this UIUC hate is coming from.

The Ballad of UIUC Law

Let me tell you a little story about a man named Pless
a lying fat bastard with a lady sized chest
and to achieve fame
or just beat the game
he lied about numbers, which is pretty lame.

Fucking students in the ass,
to inflate the class.

Some people thought the something was up
With these numbers Paul pulled from his butt
so what do you know
his numbers were show
Pless was analized with an external probe

Students were too,
just look at you!

It's now years later and they are still fixing shit
wrought by Paulo and his delicious man tits
now it's not my biz
to get up in your shiz,
but your school sucks, man. it is what it is

HAHA! This is great!

[03152016]

You're right, a 65% chance of becoming an attorney is bad. But over 35% chance at Biglaw/clerkship is better than all but around 20 schools in the country.

biglaw numbers do NOT make up for employment numbers
fordham has objectively terrible employment
when 35% of the people going into 300k of debt at your school cannot get lt/ft/jd work, that is objectively terrible
the fact that some schools are even worse does not even remotely let fordham off the hook
and, i'll reiterate, biglaw numbers do NOT make up for shit employment score

fordham is a terrible terrible trap school
when i see people post about fordham, i usually PM them and try to talk them out of it
and i don't do that for any other school

[03152016]

as for why wustl is any different than fordham
just look at my above post
the whole point is that ranking a school based off of one or two statistics is silly
it's the whole package that matters

[isuperserial]

3.5% fedclerk is not good. A nine-month employment score of 63% is not good. A 6% public service score is not good. If you strike out at the 25% shot for a big firm, things are probably not looking good for you. Mal's overstating it but he has to w/ his shtick; you're definitely taking a risk by going there if you are seeking gainful employment -- don't get cocky in the school-inflated "top-25" employment stats.

Slightly better than a coin flip's chance of finding any legal job 9 months out is not overstating anything.

That's not an accurate statement. The LST score is 72%. That ranks it #24 in legal employment. A coin flip is 50%. UIUC gives you a 22% better chance than a coin flip. http://www.lstscorereports.com/national/

Not sure where all of this UIUC hate is coming from. It performs similarly to WUSTL, ND, and Fordham, but at a lower cost.

take out school funded bro

I think considering the scholarships they were giving this year made the school a proper choice for many. Most people I've met have 2/3 or more. I'm not going to graduate with any debt, I want to work in the Chicago area, biglaw sounds nice but I wouldn't care if I didn't get it.

And taking out school funded, as I agree we should, Illinois has 63%, WUSTL has 65%, ND has 70%, Fordham has 63%. I'm not going to ND because I have a feeling they don't love multiracial atheists, and the rest essentially have the same numbers in markets I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. Are any of those schools okay at sticker? Of course not. But I certainly think they are at a discount.

If you want to say everything other than the T14 + Vandy, UCLA and Texas sucks, then that's your choice. I happen to disagree.

Edit: Sorry for being so off-topic, nothing but medians on here for me from now on.

[Moneytrees]

as for why wustl is any different than fordham
just look at my above post
the whole point is that ranking a school based off of one or two statistics is silly
it's the whole package that matters

But we weren't talking about the whole package, or whether going to Fordham is a good choice, my friend. I agree with you that Fordham's overall numbers leave a lot to be desired. However, the Biglaw numbers are undoubtedly solid, which is certainly a big factor in assessing employment outcomes. Thus, despite the fact that going Fordham is virtually never a financially wise decision, it is objectively better than UIUC in purely employment outcome terms.

That was what we were talking about earlier, when some UIUC student claimed that UIUC was a good school because of its "top 25" employment status.

[Mal Reynolds]

as for why wustl is any different than fordham
just look at my above post
the whole point is that ranking a school based off of one or two statistics is silly
it's the whole package that matters

But we weren't talking about the whole package, or whether going to Fordham is a good choice, my friend. I agree with you that Fordham's overall numbers leave a lot to be desired. However, the Biglaw numbers are undoubtedly solid, which is certainly a big factor in assessing employment outcomes. Thus, despite the fact that going Fordham is virtually never a financially wise decision, it is objectively better than UIUC in purely employment outcome terms.

That was what we were talking about earlier, when some UIUC student claimed that UIUC was a good school because of its "top 25" employment status.

30% is solid. Ljfl

[03152016]

assuming no gi bill, no huge trust fund or wealthy benefactor, no employer paying for the whole thing, etc...
i think it's perfectly reasonable to borrow $50 or $60k for a strong regional
more at the ut/vandy end of the spectrum
i don't think anyone is saying you have to go to a t14
i know i certainly don't believe that

[03152016]

as for why wustl is any different than fordham
just look at my above post
the whole point is that ranking a school based off of one or two statistics is silly
it's the whole package that matters

But we weren't talking about the whole package, or whether going to Fordham is a good choice, my friend. I agree with you that Fordham's overall numbers leave a lot to be desired. However, the Biglaw numbers are undoubtedly solid, which is certainly a big factor in assessing employment outcomes. Thus, despite the fact that going Fordham is virtually never a financially wise decision, it is objectively better than UIUC in purely employment outcome terms.

That was what we were talking about earlier, when some UIUC student claimed that UIUC was a good school because of its "top 25" employment status.

i wasn't trying to wade into whatever argument that person was making
i'm simply making the point that i think fordham is a terrible school run by terrible people who swindle hundreds of students a year
but if we are going to compare fordham and uiuc, are you sure you want to commit to fordham being better than uiuc in employment?
to me that's a pretty close call

[Moneytrees]

as for why wustl is any different than fordham
just look at my above post
the whole point is that ranking a school based off of one or two statistics is silly
it's the whole package that matters

But we weren't talking about the whole package, or whether going to Fordham is a good choice, my friend. I agree with you that Fordham's overall numbers leave a lot to be desired. However, the Biglaw numbers are undoubtedly solid, which is certainly a big factor in assessing employment outcomes. Thus, despite the fact that going Fordham is virtually never a financially wise decision, it is objectively better than UIUC in purely employment outcome terms.

That was what we were talking about earlier, when some UIUC student claimed that UIUC was a good school because of its "top 25" employment status.

i wasn't trying to wade into whatever argument that person was making
i'm simply making the point that i think fordham is a terrible school run by terrible people who swindle hundreds of students a year
but if we are going to compare fordham and uiuc, are you sure you want to commit to fordham being better than uiuc in employment?
to me that's a pretty close call

Yes, in terms of employment, I would say that Fordham is better than UIUC. Let's not forget that UIUC only placed 50% of its class into jobs two years ago. And the Biglaw+clerkship rate was very low that year. Sure, it was still reeling from the Pless fiasco, but still, that is just terrible. Fordham consistently places over 30% of its class into Biglaw, and its overall employment numbers are comparable, if not slightly better, than UIUC's. I would also guess that Fordham places more grads into "top" firms, but the only evidence I have for that is purely anecdotal.

[03152016]

employment – uiuc wins 72.3 v 63.4
employment minus school funded - statistical tie 63.6 v 63.4
underemployment - uiuc wins 18.2 v 26.6
bl+a3 - fordham wins 36.6 v 28.2

idk if i buy it

[jk148706]

[star fox]

Anyone who is particularly risk adverse should avoid any school below Texas and Vandy. And even with the 16 schools left should be looking at some kind of discount. This just isn't the profession to go into if looking for security. Too many lawyers, too much debt.

That's a very rigid standard of course. I think most people will accept various degrees of risk on this thing. The job of tls is to make people aware of outcomes and increase information. If you have all the info and want to go pay sticker at Fordham, which i think is crazy, it's your life. Good luck.

[WichitaShocker]

I apologize in advance for being off topic....


University of Florida
LSAT:155(-1), 158(-2), 161(-1)
GPA:3.25(-.07), 3.50(-.05), 3.68(-.09)
Class Size:309(-9)

http://www.law.ufl.edu/admissions/apply ... ss-profile

[WichitaShocker]

Drake Law School (IA)

LSAT:148(-1), 152(-1), 156(-2)
GPA:2.97(-.02), 3.25(-.02), 3.53(+.04)
Class Size:104(-14)

http://www.law.drake.edu/admissions/?pa ... assProfile