2018 USNWR Rankings Forum

[Tiago Splitter]

Thanks wild card. Very interesting. But this thread is about whether Duke, Cal-Berkeley or any number of random liberal arts colleges no one has ever heard of has a better undergraduate reputation.

[Wild Card]

Yes, I'll make a separate thread for the interested...

[Ferrisjso]

This is Top-Law-Schools, not CollegeConfidential.

The death of the T14 has shattered TLS's identity. We don't know where to go from here.

"Top Law Schools" in the context of the site's name has always meant top 100, which is why the site has profiles for the top 100 law schools(even if they are outdated by now that's what it originally meant). In terms of T14 isn't it consensus that it's now the T13? If everyone wants to be understanding towards the Georgetown people why not add in UT, UCLA, Vandy and WUSTL and make it the top 18?

[Moneytrees]

This is Top-Law-Schools, not CollegeConfidential.

The death of the T14 has shattered TLS's identity. We don't know where to go from here.

"Top Law Schools" in the context of the site's name has always meant top 100, which is why the site has profiles for the top 100 law schools(even if they are outdated by now that's what it originally meant). In terms of T14 isn't it consensus that it's now the T13? If everyone wants to be understanding towards the Georgetown people why not add in UT, UCLA, Vandy and WUSTL and make it the top 18?

Because there is a huge gulf in employment outcomes between the T13 and GULC, V, UCLA and UT.

[Ferrisjso]

This is Top-Law-Schools, not CollegeConfidential.

The death of the T14 has shattered TLS's identity. We don't know where to go from here.

"Top Law Schools" in the context of the site's name has always meant top 100, which is why the site has profiles for the top 100 law schools(even if they are outdated by now that's what it originally meant). In terms of T14 isn't it consensus that it's now the T13? If everyone wants to be understanding towards the Georgetown people why not add in UT, UCLA, Vandy and WUSTL and make it the top 18?

Because there is a huge gulf in employment outcomes between the T13 and GULC, V, UCLA and UT.

It was an either or question, yeah even before the ranking drop I felt Georgetown had more in common with the latter group.

[Moneytrees]

This is Top-Law-Schools, not CollegeConfidential.

The death of the T14 has shattered TLS's identity. We don't know where to go from here.

"Top Law Schools" in the context of the site's name has always meant top 100, which is why the site has profiles for the top 100 law schools(even if they are outdated by now that's what it originally meant). In terms of T14 isn't it consensus that it's now the T13? If everyone wants to be understanding towards the Georgetown people why not add in UT, UCLA, Vandy and WUSTL and make it the top 18?

Because there is a huge gulf in employment outcomes between the T13 and GULC, V, UCLA and UT.

It was an either or question, yeah even before the ranking drop I felt Georgetown had more in common with the latter group.

Yeah I think T13 is appropriate. GUCL probably does a bit better than its 3 peers but isn't an elite school, at least in terms of employment numbers.

[Pomeranian]

Georgetown is more similar to schools like Vanderbilt, UCLA and Wash U, than those in the T-13. Also, something like 20% of GULC graduating class is unemployed. It's really sad.

[wiz]

Hikko - I was thinking about this and you're my go to guy on these sorts of things. What is the cutoff for what constitutes a prestigious undergrad?

National Universities
Tier 1: PSYCHM
Tier 2: Columbia, Chicago, Duke, Penn, Dartmouth, Vanderbilt, Brown, Rice
Tier 3: WUSTL, Cornell, Georgetown, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, NYU, Notre Dame, Emory, Berkeley, Tufts, Carnegie Mellon, UVA, Michigan, Boston College, USC, UCLA

Just a rough outline. Order within tiers not super precise. Personal preference would be slightly different in some cases. Open to disagreement/suggestions.

1a: HYPS
1b: MC
2a: Columbia, Penn, Chicago
2b: Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell, Duke
3: Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, Vanderbilt, Rice, Berkeley, WUSTL, Emory, Georgetown, Notre Dame
4: Carnegie Mellon, Tufts, NYU, UVA, Michigan, USC, UCLA


Lmao liberal arts schools

[Ferrisjso]

Georgetown is more similar to schools like Vanderbilt, UCLA and Wash U, than those in the T-13. Also, something like 20% of GULC graduating class is unemployed. It's really sad.

To be fair this is kind of on the adcoms for admitting those monstrous class sizes, largely into the most glutted legal market in the country(the unemployment anyway, not them being similar to the best regionals).

[Hikikomorist]

Hikko - I was thinking about this and you're my go to guy on these sorts of things. What is the cutoff for what constitutes a prestigious undergrad?

National Universities
Tier 1: PSYCHM
Tier 2: Columbia, Chicago, Duke, Penn, Dartmouth, Vanderbilt, Brown, Rice
Tier 3: WUSTL, Cornell, Georgetown, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, NYU, Notre Dame, Emory, Berkeley, Tufts, Carnegie Mellon, UVA, Michigan, Boston College, USC, UCLA

Just a rough outline. Order within tiers not super precise. Personal preference would be slightly different in some cases. Open to disagreement/suggestions.

1a: HYPS
1b: MC
2a: Columbia, Penn, Chicago
2b: Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell, Duke
3: Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, Vanderbilt, Rice, Berkeley, WUSTL, Emory, Georgetown, Notre Dame
4: Carnegie Mellon, Tufts, NYU, UVA, Michigan, USC, UCLA


Lmao liberal arts schools

Penn should be in 2b instead of 2a. If we're not going to move Vanderbilt to 2b, I think it should at least be first in 3.

[Hikikomorist]

Just for reference, here are the UNDERGRAD peer reputation scores (earliest I could find was from 2010....thanks Collegeconfidential). This should give one a general indication of a school's "prestige". I would could consider most of the UCs and top state flagships like UT-Austin "elite" .

4.9 , Harvard
4.9 , Princeton
4.9 , MIT
4.9 , Stanford
4.8 , Yale
4.7 , UC BERKELEY
4.6 , Caltech
4.6 , Columbia
4.6 , U Chicago
4.5 , U Penn
4.5 , Johns Hopkins
4.5 , Cornell
4.4 , Duke
4.4 , Brown
4.4 , U MICHIGAN
4.3 , Dartmouth
4.3 , Northwestern
4.3 , U VIRGINIA
4.2 , Carnegie Mellon
4.2 , UCLA
4.1 , U N CAROLINA
4.1 , Wash U
4.1 , U WISCONSIN
4.0 , Emory
4.0 , GEORGIA TECH
4.0 , Rice
4.0 , Vanderbilt
4.0 , Georgetown
4.0 , U ILLINOIS
3.9 , USC
3.9 , U TEXAS
3.8 , Notre Dame
3.8 , NYU
3.8 , WILLIAM & MARY
3.8 , UC SAN DIEGO
3.8 , UC DAVIS
3.8 , U WASHINGTON
3.8 , PENN STATE
3.7 , PURDUE
3.6 , Tufts
3.6 , UC IRVINE
3.6 , U FLORIDA
3.6 , OHIO STATE
3.6 , U MARYLAND
3.6 , U MINNESOTA
3.6 , INDIANA U
3.5 , Wake Forest
3.5 , Brandeis
3.5 , Boston College
3.5 , Case Western
3.5 , Rensselaer
3.5 , UC S BARBARA
3.5 , TEXAS A&M
3.5 , U IOWA
3.4 , U Rochester
3.4 , George Washington
3.4 , Boston University
3.4 , U PITTSBURGH
3.4 , U GEORGIA
3.4 , MICHIGAN ST
3.3 , Tulane
3.3 , Syracuse
3.3 , RUTGERS
3.3 , VIRGINIA TECH
3.2 , Lehigh
3.2 , U CONNECTICUT
3.1 , U Miami
3.1 , Pepperdine
3.1 , Fordham
3.1 , CLEMSON
3.1 , U DELAWARE
3.1 , UC S CRUZ
2.9 , SMU
2.9 , BYU
2.8 , Yeshiva
2.7 , Worcester

I'm not good at counting. Does that say Berkeley is 7 spots above Duke?

So, to recap, Berkeley is consistently above Duke in peer assessments for both UG and law school; Berkeley outranks Duke in both law school and UG rankings both nationally and internationally in non-USNWR rankings (like Times Higher Education); Berkeley consistently outranks Duke in both UG and law school USNWR rankings internationally; Berkeley has on average ranked better than Duke even in the USNWR national law school rankings within the past 10 years; Berkeley's grad programs other than law consistently outrank Duke's in every ranking and usually place top 5; and Berkeley has a reputation for civic engagement, including the free speech movement, while Duke has one for basketball. But Duke is a better school? No. Duke is more prestigious generally? No. Duke has better lay prestige? There isn't direct evidence either way but indirect evidence as summed up above says no again.

And in line with how I saw the prestige of universities generally, before it got redirected more specifically to lay prestige, here are the peer assessments for UG:

4.9 , Harvard
4.9 , Princeton
4.9 , MIT
4.9 , Stanford
4.8 , Yale
4.7 , UC BERKELEY

Literally the same group of schools I paired together. But God forbid Berkeley is a public school and isn't as wealthy. The horror!

See my post above. Very little of what you discussed matters as a measure of prestige read as exclusivity. UC Berkeley is a more famous, and certainly more important academic institution than Duke. But its student body is not as universally academically superior. Not that this matters in the least for law or graduate school, where selectivity is meaningless and outputs/research/cost/institutional support are far more valuable.

It's so weird that there are 30 pages worth of UC Berkeley vs. Duke.

Whenever there's a UG prestige thread, Berkeley always attracts the most delusional supporters. I really don't get why.

[BigZuck]

Hikko - I was thinking about this and you're my go to guy on these sorts of things. What is the cutoff for what constitutes a prestigious undergrad?

National Universities
Tier 1: PSYCHM
Tier 2: Columbia, Chicago, Duke, Penn, Dartmouth, Vanderbilt, Brown, Rice
Tier 3: WUSTL, Cornell, Georgetown, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, NYU, Notre Dame, Emory, Berkeley, Tufts, Carnegie Mellon, UVA, Michigan, Boston College, USC, UCLA

Just a rough outline. Order within tiers not super precise. Personal preference would be slightly different in some cases. Open to disagreement/suggestions.

1a: HYPS
1b: MC
2a: Columbia, Penn, Chicago
2b: Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell, Duke
3: Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, Vanderbilt, Rice, Berkeley, WUSTL, Emory, Georgetown, Notre Dame
4: Carnegie Mellon, Tufts, NYU, UVA, Michigan, USC, UCLA


Lmao liberal arts schools

Rice? Melon? We are talking about prestigious schools, not your grocery list. And tufts of what? Hair?

I'd appreciate if you approached the making of such a list with the gravitas it deserves.

[Rigo]

Rice? Melon? We are talking about prestigious schools, not your grocery list.

[Toni V]

Since this thread likes LS lists, here is the latest one (I know of) from ATL.

[Rigo]

http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-law ... -rankings/

Did they completely forget about USC?

[potterotter]

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[lymenheimer]

I feel like Im missing something.

Yea. About 45 pages discussing the topic.

[potterotter]

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[Toni V]

Why are people saying that the T14 is gone and its T13 now? I feel like Im missing something.

For many years the same schools rotated within the T14, that is no longer the case. The current top 13 are not impacted.

[Rigo]

I feel like Im missing something.

Yea. About 45 pages discussing the topic.

I guess I'll go read through 45 pages to get a simple answer. Thanks!

Note: for anyone with the same question, the answer is that T13 has been made up by TLS "Because there is a huge gulf in employment outcomes between the T13 and GULC, V, UCLA and UT."

Wow you sure read 45 pages pretty quickly.

[potterotter]

---

[lymenheimer]

I feel like Im missing something.

Yea. About 45 pages discussing the topic.

I guess I'll go read through 45 pages to get a simple answer. Thanks!

Note: for anyone with the same question, the answer is that T13 has been made up by TLS "Because there is a huge gulf in employment outcomes between the T13 and GULC, V, UCLA and UT."

Wow you sure read 45 pages pretty quickly.

He doesn't realize that the same question will likely be asked within the next 2 or 3 pages because people love to use the search function/keep up.

[jbagelboy]

I feel like Im missing something.

Yea. About 45 pages discussing the topic.

I guess I'll go read through 45 pages to get a simple answer. Thanks!

Note: for anyone with the same question, the answer is that T13 has been made up by TLS "Because there is a huge gulf in employment outcomes between the T13 and GULC, V, UCLA and UT."

It might have received an initial groundswell of support here, but it's not a phenomenon limited for TLS, or really "made up" by us. Certainly not. No one at my firm speaks of the "T14" anymore (well, old partners do still sometimes they're having a senior moment, but what do you expect from people that still use dictation?), its T13 now. All recruiting documents and trade literature reflect the shift. My judge used to consider candidates from the "T14" years back, but that's undergone a profound change: only T13 resumes make it past the clerk's desk, and the cut has even started to look more like T12. Clients across many of my friends' firms that used to only approve staffing from "T14" attorneys have made it as explicit as possible that Georgetown graduates' time is to be billed separately from the T13, unless UT and UCLA grads are included as well. It's here to stay, my friend.

[cub1014]

It's so weird that there are 30 pages worth of UC Berkeley vs. Duke.

You can blame me for the start of this 30 page madness, but the Berkeley poster above me deserved to be challenged.

[Moneytrees]

It's so weird that there are 30 pages worth of UC Berkeley vs. Duke.

You can blame me for the start of this 30 page madness, but the Berkeley poster above me deserved to be challenged.

That's fair. One must fight for lay prestige, after all.