CLASS OF 2018 MEDIANS! (LSAT/GPA/Class Size) Forum

oceanmd · Post by **oceanmd** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:52 am

Oh, I do understand it completely that it is an educational bubble.

pleadthafif · Post by **pleadthafif** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:56 am

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abl · Post by **abl** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:59 am

bpolley0 wrote:
oceanmd wrote:Ok, I am reading all of these regarding the debt and law school ranking ration and possible outcomes, and I completely agree that huge debt is really scary. Now, I know someone, who graduated a few years ago, has around 200K in debt and around 35K a year salary. This person is not happy about the debt situation, but is not overly concerned either. The plan is to find a government job, which might take some time, but after that and after 10 years of working for the government, the debt will be forgiven. So, for this person it is just a matter of finding this government job. And after 10 years, this person can do whatever he/she wants and work for whomever he/she wants. How possible or impossible is this plan?
Oh how generous of them. Do you understand that the government is the reason that the price of education is so high and is the one who lent you the money in the first place? It' not a matter of possible vs impossible. It's very possible but I certainly would not indenture myself for that type of outcome.

The government has certainly enabled things, but it's the schools that (freely) raise tuition and the students who (freely) pay it.

How possible it is for your friend depends a lot on where she went to law school and what sort of government job she's shooting for. It'd be a safe plan for a HYS grad (or really probably any T14 grad). Then again, I'm guessing that your friend probably didn't go anywhere super top-tier / did poorly in law school or she wouldn't likely be in this position in the first place (which is one irony to this discussion).

bpolley0 · Post by **bpolley0** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:09 pm

abl · Post by **abl** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:25 pm

bpolley0 wrote:
abl wrote:
bpolley0 wrote:
oceanmd wrote:Ok, I am reading all of these regarding the debt and law school ranking ration and possible outcomes, and I completely agree that huge debt is really scary. Now, I know someone, who graduated a few years ago, has around 200K in debt and around 35K a year salary. This person is not happy about the debt situation, but is not overly concerned either. The plan is to find a government job, which might take some time, but after that and after 10 years of working for the government, the debt will be forgiven. So, for this person it is just a matter of finding this government job. And after 10 years, this person can do whatever he/she wants and work for whomever he/she wants. How possible or impossible is this plan?
Oh how generous of them. Do you understand that the government is the reason that the price of education is so high and is the one who lent you the money in the first place? It' not a matter of possible vs impossible. It's very possible but I certainly would not indenture myself for that type of outcome.
The government has certainly enabled things, but it's the schools that (freely) raise tuition and the students who (freely) pay it.

How possible it is for your friend depends a lot on where she went to law school and what sort of government job she's shooting for. It'd be a safe plan for a HYS grad (or really probably any T14 grad). Then again, I'm guessing that your friend probably didn't go anywhere super top-tier / did poorly in law school or she wouldn't likely be in this position in the first place (which is one irony to this discussion).
lol. I think you should borrow 300k, go to Notre Dame, and report back to TLS in a few years letting us know how your outcome is. Yes schools freely raise tuition, it is in there own self interest to as it benefits them at the expense of their students, and yes poorly informed students actually pay sticker for it. That still doesn't account for the fact all of the risk falls on the student and literally NONE on the school.

People also gamble knowing the odds are atrociously against them. I am the guy saying don't sit down at the Keno table- you, based on statistics, are probably not going to win.

It's a gamble either way. Are you going to gamble at a lower-ranked school that you won't get the job of your choice? Or are you going to gamble at a higher ranked school that your debt will prove to be a poor investment? I'm not arguing that any particular school at any particular level of debt is worth it. Personally, I wouldn't borrow $300k to go to Notre Dame. I'm just pointing out that this is all about tradeoffs and balancing, and that there is no one objectively correct way to balance these factors.

Incidentally, I graduated from law school several years ago (so no, I'm not going to Notre Dame).

bpolley0 · Post by **bpolley0** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:40 pm

oceanmd · Post by **oceanmd** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:01 pm

I didn't expect to start such a heated discussion.

abl · Post by **abl** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:04 pm

bpolley0 wrote:
Agreed and clearly in his example provided, a $35,000 a year income- an income that is below the median per capita income in the US I might add-with $200,000 in debt is not a favorable outcome in my opinion. I think most sane human beings who know anything about compound interest would agree.

But again, yes that is a subjective decision.

Ha, glad we're on the same page. My guess with the person in the example is that her law school gamble didn't turn out well (probably because she took out a fair amount of debt to go to a second tier school). I'd be surprised if anyone goes to law school wanting that as an outcome.

Huskies13! · Post by **Huskies13!** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:07 pm

Wisconsin up:
186 (+28)
161 (0)
3.54 (-0.08)
https://law.wisc.edu/prospective/stats.html

Huskies13! · Post by **Huskies13!** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:21 pm

GW:
http://www.law.gwu.edu/Admissions/JD/Pages/Profile.aspx
473 (-67?)
165 (0)
3.71 (0)

JCougar · Post by **JCougar** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:48 pm

I understand that academia and especially those in law are quite liberal (as am I). But wouldn't all this government spending be better spent on communities that need it? On returning the Legal Services Foundation to its original funding levels so that legal non-profits are not broke?

Ultimately, even if the student is somewhat protected by PAYE, the taxpayer is the one that's bearing the remainder of this risk. And as we're all aware, there's only a finite amount of tax dollars that this country's oligarchy will allow our government to collect. Instead of handing this limited tax money out to a small group of generally upper-class baby boomers with incredibly easy jobs (law profs), and paying a COL stipend to mostly upper-middle class students to live in NYC/SF/DC/LA/Chicago/Boston for three years and get drunk at Bar Review every Thursday and go through a three-year degree that is, at best, risible from a training perspective--why not spend this money in low-income communities on education, legal services, etc.? It would decrease the cost of legal education but increase access to the court system and create more legal jobs at once. Everyone wins, except law profs, who have to make somewhat lower six-figure salaries and maybe work 20 hours a week instead of 10.

Law school loan forgiveness is going to literally cost us billions of dollars down the road.

pleadthafif · Post by **pleadthafif** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:29 pm

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Lawdork · Post by **Lawdork** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:20 pm

It's October 15, i thought that's the date that schools are required to report data?

FSK · Post by **FSK** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:23 pm

Huskies13! wrote:GW:
http://www.law.gwu.edu/Admissions/JD/Pages/Profile.aspx
473 (-67?)
165 (0)
3.71 (0)

If this is true, Kudos to GW (where I attend). The trend since my entering class has been exponentially bigger. A cut was needed, and I hope it continues.

scone · Post by **scone** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:25 pm

oceanmd wrote:There are thousands of people who have no idea what they are getting into, and they would be better off if they were not allowed to borrow THAT MUCH money, in my opinion.

+1

Lawdork · Post by **Lawdork** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:42 pm

It's official: GWU is the new WUSTL.

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:43 pm

flawschoolkid wrote:
Huskies13! wrote:GW:
http://www.law.gwu.edu/Admissions/JD/Pages/Profile.aspx
473 (-67?)
165 (0)
3.71 (0)
If this is true, Kudos to GW (where I attend). The trend since my entering class has been exponentially bigger. A cut was needed, and I hope it continues.

+1 impressed by their sobriety

JCougar · Post by **JCougar** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:01 pm

pleadthafif wrote: You must have missed the debate the other night. Who cares about law school debt, the 1% is going to end up paying for it. #Bernie2016

I doubt that, under Bernie's plan, law schools will be allowed to "fill in the blank" as to how much tuition money the government should print out for them as they do today.

First of all, I'm pretty sure it doesn't apply to grad school at all. Second of all, if law school was all funded directly by the feds, there would be no need to raise tuition so fast in order to cross-subsidize scholarships to better applicants.

Harry_Pluxen · Post by **Harry_Pluxen** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:02 pm

Originally I came here to see what the medians were. However, I am very interested in the discussion that has developed over the course of the past view pages regarding legal employment, debt, salaries, etc. As a 0L I can say it is very interesting and helpful to hear more experienced users share their insight into this. Much appreciated, guys/gals.

pleadthafif · Post by **pleadthafif** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:16 pm

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bpolley0 · Post by **bpolley0** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:18 pm

jewkidontheblock · Post by **jewkidontheblock** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:20 pm

Lawdork wrote:It's official: GWU is the new WUSTL.

Except without the scholarship generosity

bpolley0 · Post by **bpolley0** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:26 pm

pleadthafif · Post by **pleadthafif** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:44 pm

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