CLASS OF 2018 MEDIANS! (LSAT/GPA/Class Size) Forum

[eriedoctrine]

The WUSTL numbers are official now. http://apply.law.wustl.edu/class-profile

Hmm, quite impressive WUSTL.

[eriedoctrine]

University of San Diego

Class size: 262

LSAT
156/159/161
GPA
3.2/3.52/3.63

http://www.sandiego.edu/law/admissions/ ... istics.php

This is unacceptable.

[eriedoctrine]

University of San Diego

Class size: 262

LSAT
156/159/161
GPA
3.2/3.52/3.63

http://www.sandiego.edu/law/admissions/ ... istics.php

This is unacceptable.

[eriedoctrine]

University of San Diego

Class size: 262

LSAT
156/159/161
GPA
3.2/3.52/3.63

http://www.sandiego.edu/law/admissions/ ... istics.php

This is unacceptable.

[JCougar]

The problem WUSTL has is that it was a TTT 10 years ago. It only has a TTT alumni network. Most hiring managers still regard WUSTTTL as a TTT as it was 10 years ago when they were law students. It takes time to change anyone's' impression of a school. Unfortunately, this may take another 10 years or so.

I agree with this. Getting law firms to respond to respond to a rankings change is like trying to turn around the Titanic on a dime.

But I feel like it's more than that. I feel like I'm in the middle of some sort of Keiretsu war going on between Northwestern/UChi and Chicago Biglaw on one hand, and WUSTL on the other. These firms are filled with Northwestern/UChi partners that don't want anyone encroaching on their territory. It's so bad to the point that it's obvious: WUSTL places into Chicago Biglaw no better (and probably actually worse) than Chicago-Kent/Loyola, despite having a class much closer to Northwestern than to these other TTTs. This year, their LSAT median will only be one point lower than Northwestern, in fact. But the reality is, most people from my class that targeted Chicago are practicing at insurance & workers comp defense/ambulance chaser firms where the average grad comes from John Marshall or DePaul. Either that or volunteering somewhere, or just unemployed and living with their parents. The Chicago market is really bad for everyone, though, because I know people from both Northwestern and UChi that struck out and are volunteering or looking to get into something other than law because it's their only hope.

When you couple this with the STL home market being hostile to outsiders, it leaves NYC the only market open to all comers, but grades are of course required. Schools in a bigger home market are always going to punch above their weight in the rankings, such as BU, BC, Fordham, etc., simply because there are firms in those cities that are actually willing to absorb some of those graduates.

The only people from my class that seemed to have better than average luck were people from somewhere in the south (especially TX and FL) returning home and targeting their home market for Biglaw. FL doesn't have any school that outranks WUSTL, so employers there look favorably on a WUSTL degree, and Texas only has UT, which although better, doesn't have a huge class, and has four big cities to fill (and has had kind of a counter-cyclical economy lately due to the oil price boom, which is beginning to subside).

[bpolley0]

.

[PeanutsNJam]

I wouldn't say WUSTL's competition is U Chi/NU. It's more Notre Dame, UIUC, Loyola/Kent, and schools like that. It would be ridiculous to expect WUSTL grads to take jobs from U Chi grads, but I think picking same rank Loyola over WUSTL is pure nepotism.

[Hikikomorist]

It's an interesting experiment to see how much a school can move through sheer force of endowment.

[JCougar]

Have you considered other cities in the midwest or just a different career and grinding it out? Right now is the boom times..... it isn't going to get better given our current state of affairs. If you have a bunch of debt I wouldn't really worry about it except paying the absolute minimum. This is what happens when you have piss poor economic policies.

This probably isn't the best thread to have an extended discussion about this (I've already hijacked it enough), but most Midwestern cities have very small, insular legal markets. To have a reasonable shot at getting a job there, you need to move there and pass the bar FIRST. I don't have the money to keep moving to new cities and taking new bar exams on the off chance that someone might hire me six months later. I'm no longer in Chicago, because I basically gave up...people like me have no shot. Too much competition, too few jobs.

[JCougar]

Also, it's VERY depressing and draining to take a second bar exam knowing that even passing one a second time could mean even more underemployment. All that stuff you thought was pointless trivia and/or just part of a hazing ritual the first time around--your skepticism is confirmed as realize that after two years of practice, 95% of the stuff is completely unrelated to what you need to know on a daily basis. That after 5 years, a lot of states allow reciprocity for successful lawyers, but dead broke losers like me who have to struggle on a monthly basis just to avoid eviction from my crackhead apartment complex or to keep your heat on have to pay another $2000 to take another exam, get new study books, and pay for all your driving records, transcripts, fingerprints, MPRE scores, new SoftTest fees, all to be sent in one more pointless time--it just mentally destroys you.

[TirantMartorell]

This website is obsessed with WUSTL. I don't think any other non-T14 school gets the level of attention WUSTL gets from TLS. Law firm recruiters might be aware of rankings, but most attorneys don't follow rankings with the obsession this site does. WUSTL has succeeded in buying high LSAT scores but they've failed at what is even more important: securing good jobs for its graduates. I sometimes wonder how much people, including attorneys, know about WUSTL outside of the midwest. It's a school attracting students from across the country but the school doesn't seem to have the reputation or name recognition to actually employ students throughout the country. IL and MO combined made up almost 40% of the class of 2014's employment locations.

[Troianii]

I wouldn't say WUSTL's competition is U Chi/NU. It's more Notre Dame, UIUC, Loyola/Kent, and schools like that. It would be ridiculous to expect WUSTL grads to take jobs from U Chi grads, but I think picking same rank Loyola over WUSTL is pure nepotism.

It's not quote how I thought it worked, but from talking to a few lawyers I've gathered that outside of the T14 schools (to include WUSTL) are all regional (with few exceptions - Notre Dame is one). An example from a conversation I had: a William Mitchell grad (MN tier 3) would have an edge over a Colorado (tier 1) grad *in the Twin Cities*, mostly because of the alumni edge. And to be clear I'm not speaking from experience at all, this is just what I've heard from lawyers in southern Minnesota (to include at least one high-powered attorney).

Based on that, I assume it's realistic to think that a student wanting to work in Chicago after law school might find that a school like Loyola (2nd tier?) would have roughly the same local prospects for him/her as a school like WUSTL.

Again, this is based on what I've heard discussing law school prospects with attorneys. Some others might be able to offer more full (or contrary) advice, but I unless there's something I'm missing (like some high-powered WUSTL alums working in Chicago), I doubt they would.

[Mack.Hambleton]

This website is obsessed with WUSTL. I don't think any other non-T14 school gets the level of attention WUSTL gets from TLS. Law firm recruiters might be aware of rankings, but most attorneys don't follow rankings with the obsession this site does. WUSTL has succeeded in buying high LSAT scores but they've failed at what is even more important: securing good jobs for its graduates. I sometimes wonder how much people, including attorneys, know about WUSTL outside of the midwest. It's a school attracting students from across the country but the school doesn't seem to have the reputation or name recognition to actually employ students throughout the country. IL and MO combined made up almost 40% of the class of 2014's employment locations.

The undergrad is somewhat preftigious (although still overrated by USNWR gaming imo) so I guess 0Ls think it'll translate. Same with Notre Dame, Emory, and probably others

[bpolley0]

.

[JCougar]

I wouldn't say WUSTL's competition is U Chi/NU. It's more Notre Dame, UIUC, Loyola/Kent, and schools like that. It would be ridiculous to expect WUSTL grads to take jobs from U Chi grads, but I think picking same rank Loyola over WUSTL is pure nepotism.

It's not quote how I thought it worked, but from talking to a few lawyers I've gathered that outside of the T14 schools (to include WUSTL) are all regional (with few exceptions - Notre Dame is one). An example from a conversation I had: a William Mitchell grad (MN tier 3) would have an edge over a Colorado (tier 1) grad *in the Twin Cities*, mostly because of the alumni edge. And to be clear I'm not speaking from experience at all, this is just what I've heard from lawyers in southern Minnesota (to include at least one high-powered attorney).

Based on that, I assume it's realistic to think that a student wanting to work in Chicago after law school might find that a school like Loyola (2nd tier?) would have roughly the same local prospects for him/her as a school like WUSTL.

Again, this is based on what I've heard discussing law school prospects with attorneys. Some others might be able to offer more full (or contrary) advice, but I unless there's something I'm missing (like some high-powered WUSTL alums working in Chicago), I doubt they would.

Yes, this is pretty credited. Law hiring is extremely local, still. Much more than TLS thinks. You'll figure this out after you pass the bar. You really box yourself in when you pick a state to take your first bar exam, so choose wisely. You best bet is to go to your own home market. Don't take it in NY, IL, or CA unless you already have a job lined up there via OCI or otherwise. For God's sake, don't take DC unless you have a job lined up there. Your next best bet is your school's home market, but even that, as I have evidenced above, can be dicey. I'd say just find a state that has the Uniform Bar Exam, because NY is joining up next year, and probably a lot of other states will follow. At least this gives you a better range of options.

[Tiago Splitter]

What Troianiiiii said is what TLS has been saying at least since I came here. A lot of people going to law school don't understand the local nature of legal hiring but TLS has been trying to drill it into 0L's for a long time.

WUSTL has just enough biglaw placement that people can fool themselves into thinking they'll be able to overcome.

[TirantMartorell]

This website is obsessed with WUSTL. I don't think any other non-T14 school gets the level of attention WUSTL gets from TLS. Law firm recruiters might be aware of rankings, but most attorneys don't follow rankings with the obsession this site does. WUSTL has succeeded in buying high LSAT scores but they've failed at what is even more important: securing good jobs for its graduates. I sometimes wonder how much people, including attorneys, know about WUSTL outside of the midwest. It's a school attracting students from across the country but the school doesn't seem to have the reputation or name recognition to actually employ students throughout the country. IL and MO combined made up almost 40% of the class of 2014's employment locations.

The undergrad is somewhat preftigious (although still overrated by USNWR gaming imo) so I guess 0Ls think it'll translate. Same with Notre Dame, Emory, and probably others

I really don't know why people think the undergrad is that prestigious. Most people outside the midwest can't distinguish it from the University of Washington or perhaps think its GW in DC.

Why USNWR ranks the undergrad similar to Dartmouth, Northwestern, Brown, Cornell, and Vandy is beyond comprehension. Maybe someone can explain it.

[Hikikomorist]

This website is obsessed with WUSTL. I don't think any other non-T14 school gets the level of attention WUSTL gets from TLS. Law firm recruiters might be aware of rankings, but most attorneys don't follow rankings with the obsession this site does. WUSTL has succeeded in buying high LSAT scores but they've failed at what is even more important: securing good jobs for its graduates. I sometimes wonder how much people, including attorneys, know about WUSTL outside of the midwest. It's a school attracting students from across the country but the school doesn't seem to have the reputation or name recognition to actually employ students throughout the country. IL and MO combined made up almost 40% of the class of 2014's employment locations.

The undergrad is somewhat preftigious (although still overrated by USNWR gaming imo) so I guess 0Ls think it'll translate. Same with Notre Dame, Emory, and probably others

I really don't know why people think the undergrad is that prestigious. Most people outside the midwest can't distinguish it from the University of Washington or perhaps think its GW in DC.

Why USNWR ranks the undergrad similar to Dartmouth, Northwestern, Brown, Cornell, and Vandy is beyond comprehension. Maybe someone can explain it.

They have a large endowment and throw it around.

[eriedoctrine]

Stop being jelly over WUSTL.
It's a solid school that's doing the right thing, unlike most of the others.
It's reputation, employment prospects, and rankings will only be improving over time.

[TirantMartorell]

Stop being jelly over WUSTL.
It's a solid school that's doing the right thing, unlike most of the others.
It's reputation, employment prospects, and rankings will only be improving over time.

This is exactly what I mean. Had we been criticizing any other T20 school for its failure to secure jobs for its graduates in spite of its ranking (USC, Emory and UCLA have issues of their own, for example), we would not be confronted with TLSers ready to defend the reputation of their beloved WUSTL. I really don't get it. WUSTL has employment numbers similar to GW, ND, BU, BC, and Fordham and yet all of the schools I just mentioned will repeatedly be trashed on TLS in ways WUSTL is not.

[Tiago Splitter]

Stop being jelly over WUSTL.
It's a solid school that's doing the right thing, unlike most of the others.
It's reputation, employment prospects, and rankings will only be improving over time.

This is exactly what I mean. Had we been criticizing any other T20 school for its failure to secure jobs for its graduates in spite of its ranking (USC, Emory and UCLA have issues of their own, for example), we would not be confronted with TLSers ready to defend the reputation of their beloved WUSTL. I really don't get it. WUSTL has employment numbers similar to GW, ND, BU, BC, and Fordham and yet all of the schools I just mentioned will repeatedly be trashed on TLS in ways WUSTL is not.

It's because WUSTL will give 150k to anyone who can fog a mirror and score 166 on the LSAT, GPA be damned. Cheap COL too. Those other places will leave you jobless with massive debt.

[eriedoctrine]

Stop being jelly over WUSTL.
It's a solid school that's doing the right thing, unlike most of the others.
It's reputation, employment prospects, and rankings will only be improving over time.

This is exactly what I mean. Had we been criticizing any other T20 school for its failure to secure jobs for its graduates in spite of its ranking (USC, Emory and UCLA have issues of their own, for example), we would not be confronted with TLSers ready to defend the reputation of their beloved WUSTL. I really don't get it. WUSTL has employment numbers similar to GW, ND, BU, BC, and Fordham and yet all of the schools I just mentioned will repeatedly be trashed on TLS in ways WUSTL is not.

Similar employment prospects but much better scholarships.
Take a look at the 509 reports and the scholarship breakdowns!
They offered me a full scholly but since my parents are rich, I could go anywhere at sticker.

WUSTL will be UChicago in the next decade.
WUSTL is love, WUSTL is life.
(Also tons of lay prestige.)

[Big Red]

Stop being jelly over WUSTL.
It's a solid school that's doing the right thing, unlike most of the others.
It's reputation, employment prospects, and rankings will only be improving over time.

This is exactly what I mean. Had we been criticizing any other T20 school for its failure to secure jobs for its graduates in spite of its ranking (USC, Emory and UCLA have issues of their own, for example), we would not be confronted with TLSers ready to defend the reputation of their beloved WUSTL. I really don't get it. WUSTL has employment numbers similar to GW, ND, BU, BC, and Fordham and yet all of the schools I just mentioned will repeatedly be trashed on TLS in ways WUSTL is not.

OK, There's more WUSTL dirty laundry lying around the lounge than there is for any other accredited JD program, IDK what website you're on right now

I really don't think it's that difficult to understand why WUSTL gets so much attention on TLS, and you have to spend about thirty seconds looking at scholly #s on law school numbers to figure out why

They cut their class size by 60 and are using their endowment to make the decision to go to law school less irrational for a pretty good chunk of borderline T14 people

What do you want them to do? Were you expecting them to overcome a significant geographic disadvantage and a traditionally meh reputation within the profession by adding 1 point on their median LSAT score?

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Stop being jelly over WUSTL.
It's a solid school that's doing the right thing, unlike most of the others.
It's reputation, employment prospects, and rankings will only be improving over time.

This is exactly what I mean. Had we been criticizing any other T20 school for its failure to secure jobs for its graduates in spite of its ranking (USC, Emory and UCLA have issues of their own, for example), we would not be confronted with TLSers ready to defend the reputation of their beloved WUSTL. I really don't get it. WUSTL has employment numbers similar to GW, ND, BU, BC, and Fordham and yet all of the schools I just mentioned will repeatedly be trashed on TLS in ways WUSTL is not.

Can't blame the school if employers won't hire its grads. It deserves praise for giving full rides to, frankly, mediocre applicants. And you would be crazy not to take it over six figure debt at the UVAs and Dukes of the world. It uniquely gets credit because it's the only school that will do this for splitters.

[eriedoctrine]

Illinois Law should also be given a second look, as you're getting T25 quality employment with T50 stats.
This won't last forever and many Chi-town employers are already starting to cut back on recruitment from the school due to the scandal, and bring in more from WUSTL/ND.