Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud? Forum

[Mel Zelaya]

I trust that others will shoot down any unsubstantiated assertions while I am gone.

160k median salary type assertions?

Doyle, you have seen the numbers. The school works with the best data available to calculate the median, and honestly explains the nature of said data (ie: 87% reporting.) Unless the school were to borrow some Death Eaters and put all new graduates under the Imperius curse, forcing them to reveal their starting salaries, there would be no way to get a "better" median.

Out with the old:

In with the new:

[de5igual]

Is it safe to assume that almost every NLJ250 firms pays according to the Big Law scale? If not, Fordham's V100_2L_SA_Placement_Rate of 15% makes one wonder how many people are actually raking in $160k. Moreover, the NLJ survey was for 2005 graduates - people who entered the market at the height of the Ponzi Scheme.

p.s: This isn't to confirm Snooker's thesis, but to figure out if we're working off some faulty assumtions (NLJ250=$160k; 2005 graduates placed at the same rate as 2008 graduates, etc...)

not all nlj250 = biglaw salary and not all biglaw salary = nlj250

but it's a relatively good metric for most schools (it wouldn't be as applicable to schools like UT, UCLA or Vandy that target smaller or unique markets)

[OperaSoprano]

Yes, the median is the middle number and the mean is the average.

Extremes can have a greater impact on the median than mean which is why I bet they are reporting the median

No, I think you don't see it !!!

Other way around. The median completely nullifies the effect of outliers. The median is purely positional - the mean integrates every available data point.

Whats far more egregious in my opinion is that law schools get away with reporting only private law salaries (which are on average higher paying than PI, Gov or Business) and then deflect the remaining 30-60% of their graduates as 'self-selecting' for non-private firm jobs. That seriously skews every school's employment data upward.

PI and government jobs pretty much are self selecting, or at least they were, before the current economic shitshow. The vast majority of law school grads want and expect to go to firms, and do so even if they can't get biglaw. Fordham in particular has this reputation, despite excellent PI resources; the numbers going into government and PI jobs are small. If I elect to join their ranks as soon as I graduate, I will certainly be doing so of my own volition, and against the advice of nearly everyone I know. The biglaw siren song is strong, and it certainly is a "badge of honor" to get so selective a position.

My point is that in an economy even marginally less fucked than this one, people don't take government or PI jobs unless they want them. These jobs aren't somehow magically easier to get than non market paying firm jobs, and they tend to pay even less than insurance defense type work.

I agree with you that Business as a category is problematic. Whenever I see a school with a high percentage of grads working in Business, it's a red flag. They could be in corporate legal departments, or they could be at Starbucks. We just don't know.

I absolutely would like to see all law schools held to a higher degree of accountability. However, I am satisfied that Fordham is as good as it gets for a school outside the T14 and UCLA/Vandy/UT tier. Short of hunting down every last graduate and forcing them to divulge salary information at gunpoint, I don't see how the school can get more accurate information.

Why is it so shocking to people that the #3 school in NYC is able to place students well? Are we all so wed to the T14 or bust mythology that it is impossible to accept any facts that don't fit that particular paradigm? A simple Martindale search should be enough to put this kind of thing to rest. Fordham does not place as well as a T14, obviously, but it's one of the best regional schools in the nation. I don't think anyone on here would even bother to dispute that.

Also, what is up with the collective mathematical difficulties experienced by members of this forum? I was a fashion merchandising major and I understand the difference between median and mean.

Off to brunch. I'll be around later if anyone needs me.

And you base these assertions off your accumulated zero hours of law school experience combined with your accumulated zero hours of law practice?

It's called basic research. Anyone with an internet connection, a library card, and an ability to call up recent grads can do it.

[danquayle]

I mean... the point is broad because its a flaw in the system. The system allows and probably even rewards this ongoing obfuscation and blatant gaming. I can't hate the player.

[zanda]

I trust that others will shoot down any unsubstantiated assertions while I am gone.

broken_image

Please knock down the assertion that this Fordham grad will ever become a "polished, professional attorney."

0L, not a grad.

http://abovethelaw.com/law_schools/2008/05/

"I would like to send a sincere apology to friends, family, colleagues and members of the Fordham community who have been offended by this poll and would like to confirm that I have officially withdrawn from the contest.

What started as a silly dare has garnered more attention than I ever thought it would. There are no nude photos of myself, online or elsewhere, nor did I ever intend for there to be. I had no expectations of winning in a pool of 25+ contestants, nor did I plan to actually go through with the shoot if I had won. It was purely the thrill of participating in such a contest and trying to get out the last bit of "wild child" in me while I'm still a student, before facing the reality of "becoming a grown-up."

This just happened to be the wake up call I needed to make me realize that I should already be acting like an adult and that, even though I never posed for nude photographs, this sort of behavior is unacceptable.

It was a stupid thing to do and I take full responsibility for it. I can only hope that those close to me whom I have offended will forgive me for my serious lapse in judgment."

I don't know her, and shockingly, I don't have a problem with her doing this, if it's what she wants to do. The notoriety may actually help her career, if curious employers elect to call her in for an interview. Would I personally pose nude in a publication? Probably not. Is she screwed for life? Doubt it.

I agree. I don't see the issue.

Regarding this thread- I think some people, considering they aren't going to Fordham, are awfully concerned about Fordam.

[Skadden Stairs]

I trust that others will shoot down any unsubstantiated assertions while I am gone.

160k median salary type assertions?

More importantly, why can't Fordham seem to break the LEWW market in its own city? Now that's embarrassing.

perhaps a lesbian couple with an aristocratic background would do the trick

If only Eleanor Roosevelt was still alive... although I'm sure you prefer something along the lines of Sappho.

[neskerdoo]

The notoriety may actually help her career, if curious employers elect to call her in for an interview.

wow

[danquayle]

It's called basic research. Anyone with an internet connection, a library card, and an ability to call up recent grads can do it.

And evidently persistent application of blinders.

I'm not going to get into a discussion on whose library card is bigger with you. I will say that I trust my ability to talk to everyone of my graduating class over your ability to talk to recent grads on the phone, who likely once again self-select in deciding to encourage someone to attend their alum mater.

Look, I'm not trying to rip your school or decision to go there. I think its a truly excellent choice. I do, however, think the data schools provide is woefully inadequate for many prospective law students to make an informed decision. I'm not even sure why I have to argue that point...

[OperaSoprano]

I trust that others will shoot down any unsubstantiated assertions while I am gone.

160k median salary type assertions?

More importantly, why can't Fordham seem to break the LEWW market in its own city? Now that's embarrassing.

If I ever marry, you all had better vote for me.

[danquayle]

The notoriety may actually help her career, if curious employers elect to call her in for an interview.

wow

Its actually probably true. Its also what they said for that Suffolk Law grad... most of you have probably already seen this, but if not:

http://www.theinternetpatrol.com/when-e ... na-abdala/

[uknowme]

I trust that others will shoot down any unsubstantiated assertions while I am gone.

160k median salary type assertions?

Doyle, you have seen the numbers. The school works with the best data available to calculate the median, and honestly explains the nature of said data (ie: 87% reporting.) Unless the school were to borrow some Death Eaters and put all new graduates under the Imperius curse, forcing them to reveal their starting salaries, there would be no way to get a "better" median.

I used to work in an admissions office for an ug business school, and we used to "lose" the current addresses of un- and underemployed grads for the purposes of sending out our surveys. These students almost always represented the non-reporters for our school. It wasn't that people didn't send them back (trust me, we got back some awful salaries), it's that we intentionally avoided giving them the option to report.

[OperaSoprano]

It's called basic research. Anyone with an internet connection, a library card, and an ability to call up recent grads can do it.

And evidently persistent application of blinders.

I'm not going to get into a discussion on whose library card is bigger with you. I will say that I trust my ability to talk to everyone of my graduating class over your ability to talk to recent grads on the phone, who likely once again self-select in deciding to encourage someone to attend their alum mater.

Look, I'm not trying to rip your school or decision to go there. I think its a truly excellent choice. I do, however, think the data schools provide is woefully inadequate for many prospective law students to make an informed decision. I'm not even sure why I have to argue that point...

I agree. However, Fordham provides better information than most. Am I perfectly satisfied? No. I'd like to see 100% of the data, but unfortunately there is no way to get it. I am reasonably satisfied that my school has done a good job in this department, and provides far more complete data than any of the other schools I researched.

[danquayle]

It's called basic research. Anyone with an internet connection, a library card, and an ability to call up recent grads can do it.

And evidently persistent application of blinders.

I'm not going to get into a discussion on whose library card is bigger with you. I will say that I trust my ability to talk to everyone of my graduating class over your ability to talk to recent grads on the phone, who likely once again self-select in deciding to encourage someone to attend their alum mater.

Look, I'm not trying to rip your school or decision to go there. I think its a truly excellent choice. I do, however, think the data schools provide is woefully inadequate for many prospective law students to make an informed decision. I'm not even sure why I have to argue that point...

I agree. However, Fordham provides better information than most. Am I perfectly satisfied? No. I'd like to see 100% of the data, but unfortunately there is no way to get it. I am reasonably satisfied that my school has done a good job in this department, and provides far more complete data than any of the other schools I researched.

And law schools, even good ones intentionally game. My law school offered a $1000 'research' stipend for the summer. It was explicitly intended for the unemployed and only the unemployed. They do this so they can report 'education' for employment after law school. Its annoying, but I can't fault the school itself when the system permits, indeed rewards, such abuse.

[OperaSoprano]

I trust that others will shoot down any unsubstantiated assertions while I am gone.

160k median salary type assertions?

Doyle, you have seen the numbers. The school works with the best data available to calculate the median, and honestly explains the nature of said data (ie: 87% reporting.) Unless the school were to borrow some Death Eaters and put all new graduates under the Imperius curse, forcing them to reveal their starting salaries, there would be no way to get a "better" median.

I used to work in an admissions office for an ug business school, and we used to "lose" the current addresses of un- and underemployed grads for the purposes of sending out our surveys. These students almost always represented the non-reporters for our school. It wasn't that people didn't send them back (trust me, we got back some awful salaries), it's that we intentionally avoided giving them the option to report.

That would indeed be shady. I'm not sure how you could go about proving such an allegation, though. If something like that actually broke about any school, there would be a shitshow. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that most of the silent 13% have fairly low salaries, but this doesn't mean anything unethical occurred.

[OperaSoprano]

I really am leaving now. My <3 to all.

[GATORTIM]

Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

......No, but if you do decide to file your lawsuit be sure to name every single LS in your complaint as all employment stats are deceptive in one way or another. Go Tom Watson!

[Drummingreg]

I'm curious where the tls stats for Fordham are from. They seem to be a lot more reasonable than the ones on fordhams website.

[uknowme]

The tls stats are from a few years ago. Most school profiles are from the graduating class of 2006, i believe.

[OperaSoprano]

It's called basic research. Anyone with an internet connection, a library card, and an ability to call up recent grads can do it.

And evidently persistent application of blinders.

I'm not going to get into a discussion on whose library card is bigger with you. I will say that I trust my ability to talk to everyone of my graduating class over your ability to talk to recent grads on the phone, who likely once again self-select in deciding to encourage someone to attend their alum mater.

Look, I'm not trying to rip your school or decision to go there. I think its a truly excellent choice. I do, however, think the data schools provide is woefully inadequate for many prospective law students to make an informed decision. I'm not even sure why I have to argue that point...

I agree. However, Fordham provides better information than most. Am I perfectly satisfied? No. I'd like to see 100% of the data, but unfortunately there is no way to get it. I am reasonably satisfied that my school has done a good job in this department, and provides far more complete data than any of the other schools I researched.

And law schools, even good ones intentionally game. My law school offered a $1000 'research' stipend for the summer. It was explicitly intended for the unemployed and only the unemployed. They do this so they can report 'education' for employment after law school. Its annoying, but I can't fault the school itself when the system permits, indeed rewards, such abuse.

Agreed. The system is shit, and needs to be reformed. I would love to see every school publish employment lists, because I want to be able to prove conclusively that my school isn't making things up. If I am wrong, I will be the first to admit it. More of this when I return.

[doyleoil]

I'm curious where the tls stats for Fordham are from. They seem to be a lot more reasonable than the ones on fordhams website.

The confusing thing about the website stats (http://law2.fordham.edu/ihtml/cp-2JDPro ... ml?id=1709) is that there are lots of percentages without much guidance as to how they relate. For example, in the first chart that gives percentages of graduates in particular types of employment (private practice, business, government, etc.), the percentages are recorded as "Percentage of Reported (known employed)." Now, is that a percentage of the 99.15% who reported employment information, or is it a percentage of the 87% (of 99.15%) who reported salary data? You don't know. If it's a percentage of those who reported salary, then you know that half of 76% of 87% of 99.15% of the class are making 160k, or ~33%. That would be what I would assume when interpreting those data. Doesn't surprise me that in a boom OCI (2006), the top third of Fordham's class landed a 160k job.

[danquayle]

I'm a big fan of Bill Henderson's viewpoints on this. Its quite honest and pretty innovative.

Also, I appreciate the dean of NYLS's brutal honesty in this podcast. If education were like any other business there would be a discount for less valuable (worse placing) law schools. Its astonishing to me that there isn't.

http://www.annaivey.com/iveyfiles/2009/ ... _ourselves

[Skadden Stairs]

I trust that others will shoot down any unsubstantiated assertions while I am gone.

160k median salary type assertions?

More importantly, why can't Fordham seem to break the LEWW market in its own city? Now that's embarrassing.

If I ever marry, you all had better vote for me.

Then you had better marry big.

[Action Jackson]

It's called basic research. Anyone with an internet connection, a library card, and an ability to call up recent grads can do it.

And evidently persistent application of blinders.

I'm not going to get into a discussion on whose library card is bigger with you. I will say that I trust my ability to talk to everyone of my graduating class over your ability to talk to recent grads on the phone, who likely once again self-select in deciding to encourage someone to attend their alum mater.

Look, I'm not trying to rip your school or decision to go there. I think its a truly excellent choice. I do, however, think the data schools provide is woefully inadequate for many prospective law students to make an informed decision. I'm not even sure why I have to argue that point...

I agree. However, Fordham provides better information than most. Am I perfectly satisfied? No. I'd like to see 100% of the data, but unfortunately there is no way to get it. I am reasonably satisfied that my school has done a good job in this department, and provides far more complete data than any of the other schools I researched.

And law schools, even good ones intentionally game. My law school offered a $1000 'research' stipend for the summer. It was explicitly intended for the unemployed and only the unemployed. They do this so they can report 'education' for employment after law school. Its annoying, but I can't fault the school itself when the system permits, indeed rewards, such abuse.

Which school do you go to?

[Mel Zelaya]

And law schools, even good ones intentionally game. My law school offered a $1000 'research' stipend for the summer. It was explicitly intended for the unemployed and only the unemployed. They do this so they can report 'education' for employment after law school. Its annoying, but I can't fault the school itself when the system permits, indeed rewards, such abuse.

Which school do you go to?

. . . ?

[Snooker]

Should Fordham Law be Sued for Fraud?

......No, but if you do decide to file your lawsuit be sure to name every single LS in your complaint as all employment stats are deceptive in one way or another. Go Tom Watson!

Well in order for any school to be sued, you'd need to have a legitimate grievance with the school - i.e. you are a graduate making a 60k salary where the school said such an applicant would make 160k. There'd need to be actual damages in play, but I think that Fordham has exaggerated the economic gains for about a quarter of its class by $400,000 or more. The school defrauds its students by millions of dollars each year.

If, theoretically, angry Fordham graduates sued over this issue, re-litigating the same problem for other law schools would be a snap. It was really an enormous surprise to just everyone when, just two years ago, NALP released that bombshell study showing just how distended the distribution of law salaries is. It shocked one of President Bush's top economic advisor (on his blog commentary), but law schools were totally cognizant of this the whole time.

There's fraud going on here. If this doesn't become a lawsuit, at least serious criticism needs to be directed at the law schools engaging in this practice. ranks 18-70 or so, I imagine, have serious problems. TLS would be a good place for a "How Law Schools Defraud Students" type article. Many people are interested and many have a very good grasp of statistics and the game being played here. Moreover, since this mainly targets schools outside the Top 20, TLS' relationship wouldn't be hurt with the higher ranked, more honest law schools, including Texas and Vanderbilt which recently both released comprehensive and un-doctored employment statistics.

We must point out this is fraud, it is lying, and cheating law students out of millions yearly.

For OS:

Your best bet here in defending Fordham would not be the futile position of attempting to imply nothing wrong has been done here, but instead to show how Fordham is no worse than its peer institutions. I am sure the case can be made that Fordham is just another law school. In my opinion, they are the most extreme case of academic fraud - however, given the amount of data out there that hasn't been compared, I think you could overturn the assertion.

Fordham's students and faculty are top notch, and we can criticize the adminisration without implicating the world class faculty or bright students. Doing so would be an important step in reforming law school practices.