WVU vs. Maine Forum

[Nomo]

I just want to point out that good grades only matter to the extent that entry level hiring is meritocratic. Biglaw cares a lot about grades. DOJ cares a lot about grades. Judges care a lot about grades.

Small firms tend to care a lot less about grades. And that's a huge detriment to people who lack deep ties because small firms tend to prefer people they know or that their friends know (this is how most hiring in the U.S. works). Small firms have good reasons to pick local students who are recommended by other lawyers in the community: those are the types of people who have a large network of friends and acquaintances that could become clients in the next few years.

You can't compete with the kid who grew up in Bangor and went to the University of Maine for undergrad. It won't matter that you're in the top quarter of you're class and the Bangor kid is in the bottom half. Bangor kid gets the job before you every time.

Is that from experience? If so, were you able to look for something outside of Maine? Take other bar exams? Or are you limited to just Maine?

So networking events do not help with building a relationship with WVers or Mainers?? What is the benchmark for "deep ties"?

Its from experience with another market. And from talking to many recent grads who have had the same experience in other states. And its backed up by LST's data showing that most people find jobs in the state they went to law school in (with the added knowledge that most people don't leave their home state for law school).

I have never heard of a law student getting a job through a networking event, but I'm sure its happened. Deep ties normally means living in the locale for 5+ years before law school and staying there through law school. Think about it. If you were a partner at a small firm, taking whatever business comes through the door would you want a young associate who already knows a thousand or more people from high school and college who could potentially be clients, or who could potentially refer a client to you ... or would you want someone who came to the area for law school and who spent the last three years hanging out with other law students. Its not a tough decision.

Maine is the right school for someone. But you aren't that someone.

[ms2dai]

Yikes. So all these people are just going after this dream and not finding a job ... hmmm. No bueno.

Yes and her school is ranked higher than either of WVU and Maine and it is in a major metropolitian center. Way more opportunities than WVU or Maine can offer. Can you realistically see yourself owing 200k in REAL money to the government the day you graduate and no job? Go flip a coin once. For real. Because if it comes up the wrong way, you are screwed. Just listen to me dude and don't be an idiot. My GF's friends will never ever have a financially secure future, even if they find a JD job. This is at a better school than your choices, in a large city, with people having ties. All three things your choices lack.

If you listen to anyone, listen to her. She is reading this and is pleading with me to explain to you in the right words how screwed her friends are, not even just her.

The working poor is alive and well I guess. I can't believe that she is 1 out of 5 though that got a job. The marketing at these schools are shady then...

[ms2dai]

I just want to point out that good grades only matter to the extent that entry level hiring is meritocratic. Biglaw cares a lot about grades. DOJ cares a lot about grades. Judges care a lot about grades.

Small firms tend to care a lot less about grades. And that's a huge detriment to people who lack deep ties because small firms tend to prefer people they know or that their friends know (this is how most hiring in the U.S. works). Small firms have good reasons to pick local students who are recommended by other lawyers in the community: those are the types of people who have a large network of friends and acquaintances that could become clients in the next few years.

You can't compete with the kid who grew up in Bangor and went to the University of Maine for undergrad. It won't matter that you're in the top quarter of you're class and the Bangor kid is in the bottom half. Bangor kid gets the job before you every time.

Is that from experience? If so, were you able to look for something outside of Maine? Take other bar exams? Or are you limited to just Maine?

So networking events do not help with building a relationship with WVers or Mainers?? What is the benchmark for "deep ties"?

Its from experience with another market. And from talking to many recent grads who have had the same experience in other states. And its backed up by LST's data showing that most people find jobs in the state they went to law school in (with the added knowledge that most people don't leave their home state for law school).

I have never heard of a law student getting a job through a networking event, but I'm sure its happened. Deep ties normally means living in the locale for 5+ years before law school and staying there through law school. Think about it. If you were a partner at a small firm, taking whatever business comes through the door would you want a young associate who already knows a thousand or more people from high school and college who could potentially be clients, or who could potentially refer a client to you ... or would you want someone who came to the area for law school and who spent the last three years hanging out with other law students. Its not a tough decision.

Maine is the right school for someone. But you aren't that someone.

Ok thanks for the clarification. I've heard some schools say they can introduce you to people in the legal community which begins the process for connecting with locals. But your deep ties comments would suggest that is not the case.

Your example also makes sense and I appreciate what you are saying (actually what everyone has said) but it suggests that there are thousands of delusional people out there in law school. It's hard to swallow.

[fredfred]

Yikes. So all these people are just going after this dream and not finding a job ... hmmm. No bueno.

Yes and her school is ranked higher than either of WVU and Maine and it is in a major metropolitian center. Way more opportunities than WVU or Maine can offer. Can you realistically see yourself owing 200k in REAL money to the government the day you graduate and no job? Go flip a coin once. For real. Because if it comes up the wrong way, you are screwed. Just listen to me dude and don't be an idiot. My GF's friends will never ever have a financially secure future, even if they find a JD job. This is at a better school than your choices, in a large city, with people having ties. All three things your choices lack.

If you listen to anyone, listen to her. She is reading this and is pleading with me to explain to you in the right words how screwed her friends are, not even just her.

The working poor is alive and well I guess. I can't believe that she is 1 out of 5 though that got a job. The marketing at these schools are shady then...

Yes and statistically you are more likely than not, regardless how hard you work, to be a member of the working poor if you attend either of these schools. It's a statistical truth especially with no ties. Of course the marketing is shady. They want your money and they know you wont be leaving with a job.

[TheSpanishMain]

Your example also makes sense and I appreciate what you are saying (actually what everyone has said) but it suggests that there are thousands of delusional people out there in law school. It's hard to swallow.

Why? There absolutely ARE thousands of delusional law students. Don't become one.

[ms2dai]

It is painful especially as time counts down and orientations are starting soon

OP, please listen to what most of us have been saying. With careers like law, it is much smarter to be at schools that will make it easier for you to do well. When I was at a top UG, all I had to do was try in class to have tons of great opportunities. It makes a lot of sense IMO to try to have that type of environment for professional school. The legal market isn't easy even for several T14 students. You can find posts in many threads here that argue against people taking sticker price from all schools (even HYS is very contested).

What you are really talking about here is not having the ideal option for this one year of your life. Why does it hurt to take a few months to bump up your LSAT a few points and have some scholarship offers? Even if either of these schools was perfect for your goals, I'm pretty sure the consensus would be that a retake would be in order to avoid sticker. You seem to care a lot about your legal career, and most of us keep posting here to try to help you be better prepared to start practicing. If you can argue with us for this long, you can definitely crush your original LSAT score. Go do that to make sure that you don't ruin your career prospects before you even start working. Good luck.

Sigh ... thanks. I get it but ... ugh

[ms2dai]

OP. Please set a reminder in your phone/gmail calendar/whatever to come back in a year and again in 3 to tell the truth, so maybe you can be the martyr that saves the next version of you from the stupid thing you're about to do. You need to keep in mind that even if you are in the 60%, you're still only likely to make 50k a year. You literally can not afford your loan payments and life, EVEN IF luck shines on you...

That reminds me of that Gideon's Promise movie ... the part where you talked about not affording things. I'm not trying to be rich but comfortable. But I would definitely want to have a job that can help me pay my loans back. All this information you all are giving me is "insane." Have people just been laughing to mask the pain that they are knee-high in debt...

[fredfred]

OP. Please set a reminder in your phone/gmail calendar/whatever to come back in a year and again in 3 to tell the truth, so maybe you can be the martyr that saves the next version of you from the stupid thing you're about to do. You need to keep in mind that even if you are in the 60%, you're still only likely to make 50k a year. You literally can not afford your loan payments and life, EVEN IF luck shines on you...

That reminds me of that Gideon's Promise movie ... the part where you talked about not affording things. I'm not trying to be rich but comfortable. But I would definitely want to have a job that can help me pay my loans back. All this information you all are giving me is "insane." Have people just been laughing to mask the pain that they are knee-high in debt...

Well if you want a job that will help you pay back your loans- you wont find either at WVU or Maine even in the best case scenario. Do you know how long it takes to pay off 200k in debt with a 60k a year job?

[Zero99]

Don't do this dude- plenty of people in "better" positions (better school, scholarships, ties) entering school get straight fucked every year. Everyone here is giving you truth. And you better believe that law schools are absolutely packed with people who haven't the first goddamn clue. Look at how much trouble we are having convincing you?

Yea, maybe you can get a job and use PLSF or PAYE. No one is saying you can't. But we all want you to fulfill your goals and have a happy life and we are all saying there are better ways. Even just to get rid of 200k in bindis chargeable debt. Don't be blinded by needing to go NOW. Your future self will absolutely thank you.

[shump92]

Don't be blinded by needing to go NOW. Your future self will absolutely thank you.

+1

I get that it sucks to keep hearing this. I have had many huge disappointments before. But you can definitely have better options in a year.

[ms2dai]

Ok so I declined my acceptance to WVU. Here's to Maine and whatever waitlists come out of the gate.

[TheSpanishMain]

Ok so I declined my acceptance to WVU. Here's to Maine and whatever waitlists come out of the gate.

Getting off a waitlist would almost certainly mean paying sticker. Getting off a waitlist would be a bad thing. You really should sit this cycle out.

[Zero99]

Ok so I declined my acceptance to WVU. Here's to Maine and whatever waitlists come out of the gate.

Good luck man. Genuinely hope you are able to become a practicing attorney and are able to pay off your loans.