Non-ABA Law School Dean takes questions Forum

[slawww]

In what way are these alternative "legal" careers? This is all shit you can do without a law degree.

True, but I agree with the point about non-profits and policy-related jobs. From my experience in DC, a JD is definitely a plus if you're looking into those kinds of jobs. Not "legal" careers, of course, but yeah.

[eric922]

In what way are these alternative "legal" careers? This is all shit you can do without a law degree.

True, but I agree with the point about non-profits and policy-related jobs. From my experience in DC, a JD is definitely a plus if you're looking into those kinds of jobs. Not "legal" careers, of course, but yeah.

Yeah, but wouldn't a Masters of Public Policy or Public Administration be better for those jobs and require less debt?

[MCL Law Dean]

In what way are these alternative "legal" careers? This is all shit you can do without a law degree.

Just wondering? . . . ever worked in a law office . . . let's get realistic . . . there is a lot that really could be done without a law degree . . . the question is whether someone might want to use their law degree to get selected over other candidates in certain professions and actually be far superior at the position because of the law degree. Right off the top of my head, I can think of three non-profit executive directors, at least two top financial advisors, a local CEO-Founder of a health care company, a couple of bankers, and numerous commercial real estate developers . . . and each of them is not only known for the success in their current positions . . . but that they also have law degrees, even though not one of them ever practiced law in a traditional law setting.

Why are you so threatened by the idea that there are LOTS of possibilities for a law degree if you dream a little bigger. Is it just easier to complain that no one is waiting at the edge of the stage to just hand out a cookie-cutter first-year associate job . . . and then complain that to no one's surprise that the billable hour requirements don't allow a real life?

[slawww]

In what way are these alternative "legal" careers? This is all shit you can do without a law degree.

True, but I agree with the point about non-profits and policy-related jobs. From my experience in DC, a JD is definitely a plus if you're looking into those kinds of jobs. Not "legal" careers, of course, but yeah.

Yeah, but wouldn't a Masters of Public Policy or Public Administration be better for those jobs and require less debt?

Not necessarily. I thought about getting an MPP a while ago, and they're also pretty damn expensive.

[MCL Law Dean]

In what way are these alternative "legal" careers? This is all shit you can do without a law degree.

True, but I agree with the point about non-profits and policy-related jobs. From my experience in DC, a JD is definitely a plus if you're looking into those kinds of jobs. Not "legal" careers, of course, but yeah.

Yeah, but wouldn't a Masters of Public Policy or Public Administration be better for those jobs and require less debt?

Not necessarily. I thought about getting an MPP a while ago, and they're also pretty damn expensive.

. . . IMHO you can be competitive with a JD in many of the career options for a MPP, MPA, MBA . . . AND always have the option to practice law along the way as well.

[BigZuck]

In what way are these alternative "legal" careers? This is all shit you can do without a law degree.

Just wondering? . . . ever worked in a law office . . . let's get realistic . . . there is a lot that really could be done without a law degree . . . the question is whether someone might want to use their law degree to get selected over other candidates in certain professions and actually be far superior at the position because of the law degree. Right off the top of my head, I can think of three non-profit executive directors, at least two top financial advisors, a local CEO-Founder of a health care company, a couple of bankers, and numerous commercial real estate developers . . . and each of them is not only known for the success in their current positions . . . but that they also have law degrees, even though not one of them ever practiced law in a traditional law setting.

Why are you so threatened by the idea that there are LOTS of possibilities for a law degree if you dream a little bigger. Is it just easier to complain that no one is waiting at the edge of the stage to just hand out a cookie-cutter first-year associate job . . . and then complain that to no one's surprise that the billable hour requirements don't allow a real life?

Shills gonna shill

[MCL Law Dean]

My prediction. . . this becomes another argument for restricting admissions and raising the cost of legal education . . . but ignores the underlying issue of the need to revise delivery and content of legal education. Shuffling deck chairs . . .

ABA Eyes Tighter Bar Passage Rule

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0Headlines

[MCL Law Dean]

I would be interested in how TLSers are viewing these issues . . . I don't think they are just going to fade away after the task force report . . . the winds of change in legal education may be blowing in ways that might dramatically alter the path of your legal careers.

ABA Panel Struugles With Law School Reform

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0Headlines

[20141023]

.

[NYstate]

Here is an article from last year about the pressures on all law schools to change their 3 year program. It focuses on NYU.
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/10/16/ ... hird-year/

Also, see this thread about curriculum changes and clinics at Yale.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=208942

OP: I think you are correct that legal education will be changing at most, if not all schools.

[timbs4339]

I would be interested in how TLSers are viewing these issues . . . I don't think they are just going to fade away after the task force report . . . the winds of change in legal education may be blowing in ways that might dramatically alter the path of your legal careers.

ABA Panel Struugles With Law School Reform

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0Headlines

It aptly demonstrates what happens when you put a bunch of stakeholders who are all going in different directions in a room and ask them to make decisions.

For me, the two major issues are there are 1) too many JDs graduating, and 2) law school costs way too much. The students aren't well served graduating with 200K in debt, and the profession is not well-served when promising candidates don't want to go to law school because it costs too much or there aren't any jobs. But law professors and deans are very well served by enrolling more students and hiking costs, and will try to shift the debate to curricular reform because it will allow them to add programs without cutting costs or changing existing programs (for example, they might shift all the teaching onto adjuncts). The Bar Association, though, needs to be concerned about the profession first and foremost. Most older lawyers I know care about the profession and if they realized how much damage the law schools have done they'd be more involved with reform.

In the end, my feeling is that law school as a concept is kind of bullshit. I'm not even sure it delivers many of the vaunted analytical reasoning benefits it purports to teach. It's a credentialing scam, where the hardest part is getting in. For some jobs, the name on your school matters, for many others, you just need a JD and to pass the bar exam. I'm fine with arbitrary credentialing if it's not too onerous, but it's gotten to the point where people are having their lives ruined.

My prediction. . . this becomes another argument for restricting admissions and raising the cost of legal education . . . but ignores the underlying issue of the need to revise delivery and content of legal education. Shuffling deck chairs . . .

ABA Eyes Tighter Bar Passage Rule

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0Headlines

Eh, the problem is that bar passage has a lot less to do with the law school and more with the quality of students. I went to Columbia with people who spent two years taking law and basketweaving classes who passed with a 160 MBE scores because they were just really smart.

The problem is the "sliding scale" requirement, where a school just has to maintain a rate within 15 points of the state average or something.

[MCL Law Dean]

Very interesting thread about Yale . . . of course Yale has always charted its own course, but it is very curious that when the most significant push in legal education reform is in the direction of more clinics and practical training . . . that Yale appears to be sending a message that it is diminishing their emphasis. Curious . . . and seems to warrant the student's call to action on the thread.

Here is why I think the clinic vs. third-year practicum policies may directly impact current 0L and 1Ls, regardless of "tier-ism". After reading a number of the "no-jobs upon graduation" posts I went to one of the national job web-sites and entered "associate attorney", "California". More than 500 listings came up for postings during the past 30 days. My first impression was . . . hey, what's all the whining about? But on further inspection, two factors jumped out. Most of the jobs that had salaries listed were in the $60K to $85K starting range (and we don't need to revisit why that will not service $200K student loan debt), but even more to the point, almost all required 2-3 years experience.

Student A graduates in 3 years with traditional summer clerkships (but no job offer). Student B graduates in 3 years with a couple of one-semester clinical classes. Student C graduates in 3 years with a 1-year practicum or externship. Which student is closest to employability given all other factors (grades, class rank) being equal?

I think school policies on available options for the third year AND the subsequent student choices while in law school will have a significant impact on the marketability for first-year associates (who are currently 0L and 1Ls).

[Docreviewsux]

Very interesting thread about Yale . . . of course Yale has always charted its own course, but it is very curious that when the most significant push in legal education reform is in the direction of more clinics and practical training . . . that Yale appears to be sending a message that it is diminishing their emphasis. Curious . . . and seems to warrant the student's call to action on the thread.

Here is why I think the clinic vs. third-year practicum policies may directly impact current 0L and 1Ls, regardless of "tier-ism". After reading a number of the "no-jobs upon graduation" posts I went to one of the national job web-sites and entered "associate attorney", "California". More than 500 listings came up for postings during the past 30 days. My first impression was . . . hey, what's all the whining about? But on further inspection, two factors jumped out. Most of the jobs that had salaries listed were in the $60K to $85K starting range (and we don't need to revisit why that will not service $200K student loan debt), but even more to the point, almost all required 2-3 years experience.

Student A graduates in 3 years with traditional summer clerkships (but no job offer). Student B graduates in 3 years with a couple of one-semester clinical classes. Student C graduates in 3 years with a 1-year practicum or externship. Which student is closest to employability given all other factors (grades, class rank) being equal?

I think school policies on available options for the third year AND the subsequent student choices while in law school will have a significant impact on the marketability for first-year associates (who are currently 0L and 1Ls).

What's your salary? And what percentage of it is derived from funds the school gained as student loans?

[MCL Law Dean]

I wouldn't recommend following my career path if it is all about the money. (Of course I would highly recommend it if you want a rewarding career doing really interesting things with your law degree). As the President and Dean of a small California accredited law school I make about $150K a year, which is proportionate with similar public law positions in our regional community (Judges, DAs, public defenders, city and county counsel, etc.).

No way to exactly calculate your question about whether student loans pay my salary, but I think the answer is that since our school is not eligible for the huge guaranteed federal loans, our average per-student loan debt upon graduation is very low, about $25-30K. Appx. 70% of our students graduate with no debt because as an evening law school program, our student work all the way through law school and pay as they go. Therefore the answer is that student tuition directly pays my salary . . . and a relatively small percentage of that tuition revenue is from student loans.

[Docreviewsux]

I wouldn't recommend following my career path if it is all about the money. (Of course I would highly recommend it if you want a rewarding career doing really interesting things with your law degree). As the President and Dean of a small California accredited law school I make about $150K a year, which is proportionate with similar public law positions in our regional community (Judges, DAs, public defenders, city and county counsel, etc.).

No way to exactly calculate your question about whether student loans pay my salary, but I think the answer is that since our school is not eligible for the huge guaranteed federal loans, our average per-student loan debt upon graduation is very low, about $25-30K. Appx. 70% of our students graduate with no debt because as an evening law school program, our student work all the way through law school and pay as they go. Therefore the answer is that student tuition directly pays my salary . . . and a relatively small percentage of that tuition revenue is from student loans.

I don't know many PDs that make 150k. But, I thank you for the frank answer.

[MCL Law Dean]

From an academic salary (vs attorney) standpoint, I fall in the mid-range of other area public university faculty.

For example see UC Santa Cruz Professor salaries (2010 data, but with the CA budget crisis and salary freezes/roll-backs for the past several years, still relatively accurate):

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_168 ... 0099515117

Note that our private non-profit independent law school is also MUCH smaller than UCSC, but it at least provides a frame of reference if you want to compare legal employment vs. public university academic faculty positions with advanced degrees. I don't use law professor faculty salaries for comparison, because we do not have another law school in the region.

[MCL Law Dean]

In what way are these alternative "legal" careers? This is all shit you can do without a law degree.

Just wondering? . . . ever worked in a law office . . . let's get realistic . . . there is a lot that really could be done without a law degree . . . the question is whether someone might want to use their law degree to get selected over other candidates in certain professions and actually be far superior at the position because of the law degree. Right off the top of my head, I can think of three non-profit executive directors, at least two top financial advisors, a local CEO-Founder of a health care company, a couple of bankers, and numerous commercial real estate developers . . . and each of them is not only known for the success in their current positions . . . but that they also have law degrees, even though not one of them ever practiced law in a traditional law setting.

Why are you so threatened by the idea that there are LOTS of possibilities for a law degree if you dream a little bigger. Is it just easier to complain that no one is waiting at the edge of the stage to just hand out a cookie-cutter first-year associate job . . . and then complain that to no one's surprise that the billable hour requirements don't allow a real life?

Shills gonna shill

Article today on AMLaw 100 revenue from associates, hours billed, leverage . . . is this the TLS dream . . . or nightmare? and ATL decides to reinforce the "no life worth living or school worth attending" if it doesn't lead to BigLaw . . . Really?

http://www.law.com/corporatecounsel/Pub ... 0403085147

[MCL Law Dean]

This is a useful tool for comparing ABA law school ranking on employment prospects . . . can set your own factors . . . regions, etc. Might be a factor to consider for juggling final wait list decisions.

http://educatingtomorrowslawyers.du.edu/law-jobs

[jenesaislaw]

How goes the hunt for employment data? The last update you provided said that you're working on the questions you should ask. I'd like to offer to help you with this -- completely free. (I'm the executive director of Law School Transparency.)

Unrelated, but I am also interested in hearing about your school's financial model. I've looked through the school's 990 and I'd love more details.

Kyle

[MCL Law Dean]

Good timing for your question. We just finished finals and I am ready to distribute a questionnaire. However, I could really use your input. My thought is to first survey the most recent five year's graduates, which will be about 125 alumni (appx. 25 per year). The first question goes to timing. About 25% of our classes graduate "early" and take the bar in February, 50% in July, and then the remaining 25% the next February. Therefore the "9 months after graduation" time frame is not meaningful. "9 months after taking the bar" has the same problem since it now is removed from graduation date. I was thinking about using "one year and three years after graduation" as the two time measurements. However, this will not match up to the data you are reporting and I don't want to look like I am somehow gaming the system to get favorable results. Any suggestions?

Second question goes to employment categories. If I want to match the actual regional job market, I would use "license required, JD beneficial (license not required), stayed in same employment (by choice), stayed in same employment (no alternative), non-law job (by choice), non-law job (no alternative), unemployed/underemployed.

Remember I am carving up cohorts of 25, so the numbers get really small and percentages become misleading. Any suggestions?

PM, e-mail, or call me (see profile) regarding financial model. I am glad to discuss it with you.

P.S. I think what you are doing with LST is playing a critical role in promoting the changes needed in legal education . . . ours included.

[BlueDiamond]

In what way are these alternative "legal" careers? This is all shit you can do without a law degree.

Just wondering? . . . ever worked in a law office . . . let's get realistic . . . there is a lot that really could be done without a law degree . . . the question is whether someone might want to use their law degree to get selected over other candidates in certain professions and actually be far superior at the position because of the law degree. Right off the top of my head, I can think of three non-profit executive directors, at least two top financial advisors, a local CEO-Founder of a health care company, a couple of bankers, and numerous commercial real estate developers . . . and each of them is not only known for the success in their current positions . . . but that they also have law degrees, even though not one of them ever practiced law in a traditional law setting.

Why are you so threatened by the idea that there are LOTS of possibilities for a law degree if you dream a little bigger. Is it just easier to complain that no one is waiting at the edge of the stage to just hand out a cookie-cutter first-year associate job . . . and then complain that to no one's surprise that the billable hour requirements don't allow a real life?

Did all of your awesome friends also graduate in the middle of the worst recession since the Great Depression with law school tuition rapidly outpacing inflation while having law schools lie to them about their employment prospects? If you want realism wake the hell up... you are part of the problem... you're not helping any of the students that you are stealing money from. Get off your high horse and quit with the "you guys must not be trying hard enough" and "dream bigger" bullshit.

[MCL Law Dean]

Did all of your awesome friends also graduate in the middle of the worst recession since the Great Depression with law school tuition rapidly outpacing inflation while having law schools lie to them about their employment prospects?

I hate to disrupt your rant, and I get the anger . . . but if you were following this post, you would see that in this regard I fully agree with you. I think my previous response about the law schools who were blatantly publishing false reports was "they should have gone to jail."

If you want realism wake the hell up... you are part of the problem... you're not helping any of the students that you are stealing money from. Get off your high horse and quit with the "you guys must not be trying hard enough" and "dream bigger" bullshit.

I forgive you if you are a 0L and haven't learned IRAC yet . . . 1L should be very rewarding for you. The issue from my standpoint is that the cost of legal education should be relative to the market it is serving. I think we actually agree on this point as well. In our (very limited) case, we provide legal education at a cost that is supported by the local/regional employment market. In our specific market, that also includes a number of non-traditional career options for recent grads as well as more seasoned professionals.

P.S. Regarding my "awesome friends", I think the sh##boomer rant is on another thread. These alternative career professionals worked hard through more than just one recession, are creative, intelligent, non-traditional, persistent, and hard working . . . Hmmm. sounds like they would have been good as lawyers if they had taken that path as well.

[NYstate]

Did all of your awesome friends also graduate in the middle of the worst recession since the Great Depression with law school tuition rapidly outpacing inflation while having law schools lie to them about their employment prospects?

I hate to disrupt your rant, and I get the anger . . . but if you were following this post, you would see that in this regard I fully agree with you. I think my previous response about the law schools who were blatantly publishing false reports was "they should have gone to jail."

If you want realism wake the hell up... you are part of the problem... you're not helping any of the students that you are stealing money from. Get off your high horse and quit with the "you guys must not be trying hard enough" and "dream bigger" bullshit.

I forgive you if you are a 0L and haven't learned IRAC yet . . . 1L should be very rewarding for you. The issue from my standpoint is that the cost of legal education should be relative to the market it is serving. I think we actually agree on this point as well. In our (very limited) case, we provide legal education at a cost that is supported by the local/regional employment market. In our specific market, that also includes a number of non-traditional career options for recent grads as well as more seasoned professionals.

Shut up you lying scammer. Do you honestly believe you are providing a needed and important service? Your anecdotes don't prove anything about the worth of spending a dime at your school. I would wish the ABA would shut you down, but you dont even meet theeir ridiculously low standards.

I don't usually call people names but you are part of the problem. Being condescending to someone who posts their opinion is just beyond.

And in case you are wondering, I've already finished law school and have a job.

[BigZuck]

Well that escalated quickly...

I am interested in hearing more about how MCL serves a vital function in Monterey County. Earlier in the thread I believe you said a large proportion (you might have said over half?) of the bar association in the county were MCL lawyers, do you have a source for that? I know about 30 attorneys in the county and only one went to MCL (the majority went to Hastings which, despite the hell it receives on TLS, is an ABA school that still has a sterling reputation in Northern California).

[MCL Law Dean]

Well that escalated quickly...

I am interested in hearing more about how MCL serves a vital function in Monterey County. Earlier in the thread I believe you said a large proportion (you might have said over half?) of the bar association in the county were MCL lawyers, do you have a source for that? I know about 30 attorneys in the county and only one went to MCL (the majority went to Hastings which, despite the hell it receives on TLS, is an ABA school that still has a sterling reputation in Northern California).

NY . . . Weren't you the one who got mad because I said there was surfing and golf in Monterey? Maybe you have a west coast thing going?

Actually, I think you will find that the single largest alumni group of local lawyers are from Santa Clara University (San Jose). I suspect that it is an age trend, where the older practicing attorneys are more from Hastings and probably started their careers in SFO, moving to our area at an older age. The younger attorneys reflect more Santa Clara graduates. I probably should have been more specific, because my source is the Monterey County Bar Association, which runs about 30-35% of MCL graduates. To be fair, if I calculate Monterey, Santa Cruz, and San Benito Counties, we are probably more like 15-20% over the tri-county area . . . Still not bad considering how small we are.