Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs Forum

[NYC Law]

It's certainly not ideal. But if my choices were to become a paralegal/full time doc reviewer or attempt to start a solo practice, I'd chose the solo practice 10 times out of 10. The likelihood of paying off the debt off is low with those jobs anyway, and hell, at least with the solo practice I could say that I tried.

This. I don't see the harm in giving it a go if you're already in this situation. I don't even see where all the astronomic costs come from that people purport. For most low level legal work you can advertise online, papers, and even road signs, none of which are very expensive. You can operate from home in the beginning... The most expensive thing I can imagine is legal fees, but even then, its not like it would be a 100k+ endeavor to get started, more like around the $4-20k range.

[scammedhard]

It's certainly not ideal. But if my choices were to become a paralegal/full time doc reviewer or attempt to start a solo practice, I'd chose the solo practice 10 times out of 10. The likelihood of paying off the debt off is low with those jobs anyway, and hell, at least with the solo practice I could say that I tried.

This. I don't see the harm in giving it a go if you're already in this situation. I don't even see where all the astronomic costs come from that people purport. For most low level legal work you can advertise online, papers, and even road signs, none of which are very expensive. You can operate from home in the beginning... The most expensive thing I can imagine is legal fees, but even then, its not like it would be a 100k+ endeavor to get started, more like around the $4-20k range.

There are stories in the press of recent law grads going solo because of the bad economy. Here is one from MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43442917/ns ... loving-it/

Even though the story is uplifting, it's important to remember that these stories focus on the "successful ones;" who knows how many have tried and failed, and are doing even worse than before.

[NYC Law]

It's certainly not ideal. But if my choices were to become a paralegal/full time doc reviewer or attempt to start a solo practice, I'd chose the solo practice 10 times out of 10. The likelihood of paying off the debt off is low with those jobs anyway, and hell, at least with the solo practice I could say that I tried.

This. I don't see the harm in giving it a go if you're already in this situation. I don't even see where all the astronomic costs come from that people purport. For most low level legal work you can advertise online, papers, and even road signs, none of which are very expensive. You can operate from home in the beginning... The most expensive thing I can imagine is legal fees, but even then, its not like it would be a 100k+ endeavor to get started, more like around the $4-20k range.

There are stories in the press of recent law grads going solo because of the bad economy. Here is one from MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43442917/ns ... loving-it/

Even though the story is uplifting, it's important to remember that these stories focus on the "successful ones;" who knows how many have tried and failed, and are doing even worse than before.

It certainly isn't a good justification for attending a TTTT, and it's a horrible plan pre-law school. But hey, if you're already screwed and have the JD...

Although I'm starting to wonder if OP is even real since he just disappeared.

[flexityflex86]

He may have found a job.

[Suffolkscrewed]

Just popped back in. Sorry guys but I do have a day job to gain some money so I will not be on the forum all the time. I will try to answer some more questions but I made this thread in hopes to provide advice to future 1L students of lower ranked schools. An update, I have a few interviews tomorrow but a family friend has offered me an associate position at his small firm in NH pending that I pass the bar. My starting salary will be between 45 - 55K which takes a lot of the pressure off. Needless to say I am extremely excited as he told me a few months ago that he was not going to take on any new people.

[flexityflex86]

Just popped back in. Sorry guys but I do have a day job to gain some money so I will not be on the forum all the time. I will try to answer some more questions but I made this thread in hopes to provide advice to future 1L students of lower ranked schools. An update, I have a few interviews tomorrow but a family friend has offered me an associate position at his small firm in NH pending that I pass the bar. My starting salary will be between 45 - 55K which takes a lot of the pressure off. Needless to say I am extremely excited as he told me a few months ago that he was not going to take on any new people.

you now have no right to complain. 50k out of suffolk non-LR is a win. yes your debt load sucks, but you didn't make LR and that was the risk going in. congrats on the job. you're now not soo screwed. you're not in a good place, but if you would be making 30k without a JD, you just made it arguably worth it.

if these other firms don't pay much more what are you thinking about? a family friend is always TCR as they'll be less inclined to fire you on a whim.

[Suffolkscrewed]

Just popped back in. Sorry guys but I do have a day job to gain some money so I will not be on the forum all the time. I will try to answer some more questions but I made this thread in hopes to provide advice to future 1L students of lower ranked schools. An update, I have a few interviews tomorrow but a family friend has offered me an associate position at his small firm in NH pending that I pass the bar. My starting salary will be between 45 - 55K which takes a lot of the pressure off. Needless to say I am extremely excited as he told me a few months ago that he was not going to take on any new people.

you now have no right to complain. 50k out of suffolk non-LR is a win. yes your debt load sucks, but you didn't make LR and that was the risk going in. congrats on the job. you're now not soo screwed. you're not in a good place, but if you would be making 30k without a JD, you just made it arguably worth it.

if these other firms don't pay much more what are you thinking about? a family friend is always TCR as they'll be less inclined to fire you on a whim.

Yes, it is a 14 man firm that seems to do pretty well. Advancement may be tough but at least it is a start.

[Naked Dude]

Suffolkscrewed,you did what you did. I certainly wouldn't have recommended such as expensive school such as Suffolk especially incurring that amount of debt. It is a done situation however.The point is not to belabor your situation with misery but to come up with alternatives. Posting here will just garner you a lot of sympathy, which I don't think is something that you need or should be getting.

What area(s) of law do you like and are good at? For example, if you liked and were good at tax, I would recommend getting a masters in tax. I get that it requires more expenditures,but you could get a job with tax even if it with a national accounting firm.

Have you looked into the government? In usajob.com, there are usually legal positions advertised. Do you know anyone in the government that can help you? I personally know of two folks who got government legal jobs recently here in Wash DC. Have you looked into other job web sites for lawyers?
Firemed suggested to get training in a trade, which isn't a bad idea, although even those are dramatically affected by the real estate downturn.

Suffolk has a strong IP department. Did you take a lot of IP courses? If so, you can open up a practice and advertise great rates for patent and copyright work and/or litigation. Lots of people need this including folks like me. In fact, if you are particularly good at patent and copyright work and are cheap, I can use someone for a project or two.Volunteer to find freelance work.

Do you like bankruptcy? If so, you might be able to get a job in that area,which is booming. Contacting bankruptcy firms might garner you a position. Did you establish any relationship with professors? If so, they might have contacts. Tell everyone you know that you are looking for a legal job. Use your relationships to network as much as possible, even with friends that you made as an undergrad. Don't be shy about this. I would use the alumni network as much as possible by emailing them and going to alumni events.

Here are some other tips:
* Understand all of the opportunities available to you. Don't just contact large law firms. The key is to think outside the box.Every firm needs lawyers.There are LOTS of folks who want to litigate something but don't have the money to do so. Finding some good cases can get you on the road to self-employment.

* Learn to sell yourself. Being in the top 1/3 is quite good. You need to learn to express your skills succinctly and clearly and, most importantly, convincingly.
* Do you homework on companies and on recruiters. You should know what a company is doing now and where it is going and issues that they may be dealing with. Your goal is to meet their needs. This includes doing homework on any recruiters that you know or will be interviewing with. Check them out on facebook and linkedin (sp).
* Hit the road: As someone once said, don 't be afraid to simply show up at companies that you want to work with. Nobody can sell yourself like you can nor can a resume do you justice. Even companies that aren't advertising positions are always looking for good, dedicated , hard working employees. I have found that the younger generation hasn't learned the importance of personal relationships in business, which leaves many talented people wondering why they weren't hired. As someone said, "get out there and show them there is a person behind the resume."
* Be prepared for normal questions such as what are your weaknesses and why should be hire you.
Bottom line: Don't be disheartened. You just need some common sense and a lot of effort to get yourself situated.
* Use the time between jobs to keep existing skills fresh and develop new ones. Take some classes to improve your skills and is relavent to your field.
* Always send a thank you note by email
* Consider setting up a twitter account that you use professionally and follow human resource people at companies that interest you. Retweet what they write when it is good. After a few weeks of following them, send a message saying, "I'd love to talk about your company. It's a place that I am familiar with and want to work for and would love to hear about your experience there." Of course, if you get an interview, always learn as much about the company as possible including reading about them in Martindale-Hubble. Never badmouth a former boss, or co-worker or company or school.

Sorry for the wordiness. I am sure I will get flamed for all this. LOL
Good luck.

I am just an 0L, but is advising the guy to spend more money on another degree sage wisdom? I just took a bartending course with a guy who just graduated with a Tax LLM from Northwestern.

Yes, but where did he get his JD? Because if he went to a TT, and didn't get a job, so figured he'd boost that with a LLM from NU, that doesn't really work as well as some might think.

He went to a lower Tier 1, but that's the point, that's exactly what you're telling this guy to do. Though I guess since you LLM doesn't make up for your JD "name" might as well get one on the cheap right?

[NYC Law]

Just popped back in. Sorry guys but I do have a day job to gain some money so I will not be on the forum all the time. I will try to answer some more questions but I made this thread in hopes to provide advice to future 1L students of lower ranked schools. An update, I have a few interviews tomorrow but a family friend has offered me an associate position at his small firm in NH pending that I pass the bar. My starting salary will be between 45 - 55K which takes a lot of the pressure off. Needless to say I am extremely excited as he told me a few months ago that he was not going to take on any new people.

you now have no right to complain. 50k out of suffolk non-LR is a win. yes your debt load sucks, but you didn't make LR and that was the risk going in. congrats on the job. you're now not soo screwed. you're not in a good place, but if you would be making 30k without a JD, you just made it arguably worth it.

if these other firms don't pay much more what are you thinking about? a family friend is always TCR as they'll be less inclined to fire you on a whim.

Yes, it is a 14 man firm that seems to do pretty well. Advancement may be tough but at least it is a start.

Congratulations!

More evidence that it probably was a little soon to complain about no one having a job. For most of these schools the jump from at graduation employment to 9-months out is something like +30%. Even if most of them were lucky or barely got the job, they still got the job.

Not to sympathize for TTTTs, it's almost always a bad idea (except for a cheap public school).

[yo!]

Just popped back in. Sorry guys but I do have a day job to gain some money so I will not be on the forum all the time. I will try to answer some more questions but I made this thread in hopes to provide advice to future 1L students of lower ranked schools. An update, I have a few interviews tomorrow but a family friend has offered me an associate position at his small firm in NH pending that I pass the bar. My starting salary will be between 45 - 55K which takes a lot of the pressure off. Needless to say I am extremely excited as he told me a few months ago that he was not going to take on any new people.

Congrats buddy! I'm happy for you.

[sunynp]

Just popped back in. Sorry guys but I do have a day job to gain some money so I will not be on the forum all the time. I will try to answer some more questions but I made this thread in hopes to provide advice to future 1L students of lower ranked schools. An update, I have a few interviews tomorrow but a family friend has offered me an associate position at his small firm in NH pending that I pass the bar. My starting salary will be between 45 - 55K which takes a lot of the pressure off. Needless to say I am extremely excited as he told me a few months ago that he was not going to take on any new people.

Congrats! We were rooting for you.

I'm glad you are back because I did ask some questions about your loan repayment - will you use IBR ,etc. When you have a chance, no rush, let us know how that all works out. You probably don't have all the information.

One question - What advice would you give 0Ls about to go to law school knowing what you know now?

And, congrats again. That job sounds like a decent starting point.

[lisjjen]

ITT, we see 0Ls condescendingly telling a graduate what to do.

[NYC Law]

ITT, we see 0Ls condescendingly telling a graduate what to do.

Aren't you a 0L?

God forbid anyone ever debate what to do once you have the debt and are an unemployed TTTT grad.

[lisjjen]

ITT, we see 0Ls condescendingly telling a graduate what to do.

Aren't you a 0L?.

Yes. I am. And that's why I tread lightly when I'm talking about things I don't fully understand.

God forbid anyone ever debate what to do once you have the debt and are an unemployed TTTT grad.

To be clear, I am hating the game and not the player, and the game is elitism.

[Naked Dude]

Grow some balls, pass the bar and hang out a shingle if you haven't found a job (as an attorney) by then. It is absolutely inane to take a position as a paralegal when you're a lawyer. There are several paralegals with law degrees in my office. In fact, we just hired a legal assistant wish a JD. These individual have little to no hope of becoming practicing attorneys by taking such a track. Most of the know-it-all, "big law of bust", wannabes on here will ridicule this advice, and some for good reason. It will be difficult to attract clients when you first start, but if you are a diligent advocate and have a little business savvy you could build yourself a decent practice. Much better than taking a position that will likely never lead to actually practicing law.

This is anecdotal, but all the hang a shingle types I've ever heard of coming straight of law school have failed miserably or been borderline if not outright incompetent. I worked for a small firm as an undergrad (a solo practice really), and there are a lot of little nuances to running your own business that I think you just have to pick up. Maybe you learn about entrepreneurship and practice in college, and I'm talking without a JD, but it just seems like an easier said than done type thing. Taking on a client for, as an example I know of, a criminal case and having no idea how to, say, call witnesses or introduce evidence can torpedo your career/reputation damn fast (true story...3rd cousin...it happens...)

[lisjjen]

And just for fun, I'll throw my two cents in. Telling a law grad to hang a shingle the year he graduates is like telling a med student to open a private practice before his residency.

[NYC Law]

ITT, we see 0Ls condescendingly telling a graduate what to do.

Aren't you a 0L?.

Yes. I am. And that's why I tread lightly when I'm talking about things I don't fully understand.

God forbid anyone ever debate what to do once you have the debt and are an unemployed TTTT grad.

To be clear, I am hating the game and not the player, and the game is elitism.

OP even refers to them as TTT/TTTTs. So I really don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[lisjjen]

The flame wars on here were fun the summer before my Senior year, but now they're just exhausting. I'll restate my original position. It is hilarious to see 0Ls condescendingly. tell. graduates what to do.

Offering constructive criticisms and friendly suggestions is reasonable. Feeling like you can look down your nose at OP because you were accepted to a higher ranked institution than the graduate who has worked in firms is ridiculous.

[flexityflex86]

What i want to know is who doesn't live at home. Graduates with jobs live at home too. Unless you are homeless you live at home.

[firemed]

Just popped back in. Sorry guys but I do have a day job to gain some money so I will not be on the forum all the time. I will try to answer some more questions but I made this thread in hopes to provide advice to future 1L students of lower ranked schools. An update, I have a few interviews tomorrow but a family friend has offered me an associate position at his small firm in NH pending that I pass the bar. My starting salary will be between 45 - 55K which takes a lot of the pressure off. Needless to say I am extremely excited as he told me a few months ago that he was not going to take on any new people.

Congrats buddy! I'm happy for you.

+1

[yo!]

The flame wars on here were fun the summer before my Senior year, but now they're just exhausting. I'll restate my original position. It is hilarious to see 0Ls condescendingly. tell. graduates what to do.

Offering constructive criticisms and friendly suggestions is reasonable. Feeling like you can look down your nose at OP because you were accepted to a higher ranked institution than the graduate who has worked in firms is ridiculous.

I haven't seen any of that here. People seem genuinely sympathetic and are simply weighing in on the situation. If the OP didn't want that, he should keep his problems off the internet.

Also, I'm not an 0L.

[Naked Dude]

naked dude asks,"I am just an 0L, but is advising the guy to spend more money on another degree sage wisdom? I just took a bartending course with a guy who just graduated with a Tax LLM from Northwestern."

Response: Accounting firms are always hiring tax professionals. I would bet that an LLM from Northwestern in tax would get him a job with one of the big 4 accounting firm if he did reasonably well. His problem,however, is that he might eventually have to take courses in order to site for the CPA,which would be a bummer while he is working full time. However, I think some of these firms will make someone a principal without having the CPA. Some research on this would be warranted.

Maybe it's the market. He refuses to look outside of Miami. I'll have to talk to the guy. I think he was only looking at law firms too.

[Naked Dude]

I've heard the TTTT JD -> Top School LLM route works for academia

I've seen a few professors (while researching faculty for "Why X?" essays) who have gotten TTT J.D.s and then LL.M. and S.J.D.s from Yale (etc). I would assume that this is the exception, though, and anyway these were people who tended to have impressive and unique experience in spite of what their pedigree might suggest, and just pursued these to get the "name" for their C.V./academic profiles. Just guessing though.

[Naked Dude]

Starting your own practice when you have no formal legal experience and thus no training seems to be a move horribly ripe for malpractice.

Not to mention that it requires capital, which OP almost certainly does not have.

How much capital would OP really need? I don't know the legal business that well, but can't be like real estate with requisite enormous lines of credit, or restaurants with extraordinary fixed costs right?

[taxguy]

Starting your own practice when you have no formal legal experience and thus no training seems to be a move horribly ripe for malpractice.

Not to mention that it requires capital, which OP almost certainly does not have.

How much capital would OP really need? I don't know the legal business that well, but can't be like real estate with requisite enormous lines of credit, or restaurants with extraordinary fixed costs right?

You can start your own practice. You just need to watch what you can initially take. I would say divorce cases. contracts and some other simple matters should be fine. If there was a lot of courses taken in a particular area, they could take clients in that area without too much risk.

Frankly, lawyers are always taking cases on things that they aren't familiar with but become familiar. That goes with the practice. You can read many books that will get you up to speed such as the ALI-ABA series and many more publications by the bar. It isn't brain surgery to learn about an area and become reasonable competant .