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basedvulpes · Post by **basedvulpes** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:50 am

Post removed.

shump92 · Post by **shump92** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:56 am

basedvulpes wrote: Make your two-pages the best two-pages they can be!

landshoes · Post by **landshoes** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:01 pm

I had multiple drafts based on length requirements, yes.

I feel like failing to follow the instructions for the PS is one of those things that has the potential to irritate people or give them the impression that you are sloppy/careless/don't care about your application to their school. It's also SUPER easy for them to see that you went over the limit; it's not subtle at all.

scone · Post by **scone** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:11 pm

basedvulpes wrote:I really feel like with two-and-a-half I could knock it out of the park. Worth it to do this for the schools that allow it, or just make my two-pages the best two-pages they can be?

For the schools that allow more, I think it's definitely worth it (Berkeley, for instance). But don't do more than two if they only ask for two or recommend two (demonstrates bad editing skills, as well as disregard for rules etc.).

rnoodles · Post by **rnoodles** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:26 pm

scone wrote:
basedvulpes wrote:I really feel like with two-and-a-half I could knock it out of the park. Worth it to do this for the schools that allow it, or just make my two-pages the best two-pages they can be?
For the schools that allow more, I think it's definitely worth it (Berkeley, for instance). But don't do more than two if they only ask for two or recommend two (demonstrates bad editing skills, as well as disregard for rules etc.).

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with this info. My most successful PSs ($) were only 2 pages and no more than that. I also think I read somewhere on the UVA site or something where the dean talked about how they use the length of a PS as a measure of an applicant's judgment (they also don't have a page limit). If you have a life story worth writing more than two pages about, you shouldn't be applying to law school. You should be contacting publishers.

Edit: see if you can try to get into 2 pages by using 11 point and Arial Narrow font. Used it for all my apps and had no problem.

fredfred · Post by **fredfred** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:36 pm

I was told to never go past 2 pages on a PS (but play around with fonts and margins a bit to get things to fit- like 11 point font etc) and never go past 1 page on a resume. There was a link to one of the t14 deans stating in 20 years, there was only 2 applicants that were justified in having over a 1 page resume (know this isn't exactly relevant to the question at hand, but still important to note).

If you can't fit what you need into a 2 page ps or a 1 page resume, you have too much crap in there. Remember, these adcoms are reading 5k+ personal statements. Get to the point.

Edit: I had a cycle where I outperformed my numbers pretty heavily and I think my PS at least helped in this regard. It sucked cutting it down more and more but you want these adcoms to read it, finish and say wow without getting bored or disengaged.

scone · Post by **scone** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:44 pm

rnoodles22 wrote:
scone wrote:
basedvulpes wrote:I really feel like with two-and-a-half I could knock it out of the park. Worth it to do this for the schools that allow it, or just make my two-pages the best two-pages they can be?
For the schools that allow more, I think it's definitely worth it (Berkeley, for instance). But don't do more than two if they only ask for two or recommend two (demonstrates bad editing skills, as well as disregard for rules etc.).
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with this info. My most successful PSs ($) were only 2 pages and no more than that. I also think I read somewhere on the UVA site or something where the dean talked about how they use the length of a PS as a measure of an applicant's judgment (they also don't have a page limit). If you have a life story worth writing more than two pages about, you shouldn't be applying to law school. You should be contacting publishers.

Edit: see if you can try to get into 2 pages by using 11 point and Arial Narrow font. Used it for all my apps and had no problem.

Fair enough. However, there's an interview with the Berkeley dean where he says they have a 4-page maximum & they recommend applicants make the most of that. Also, Chicago recommend 2-4 pages, and the examples of great personal statements on their website are each roughly 3-4 pages double spaced, size 11. So I stick by what I say, but with a qualifier that you should carefully research individual schools' positions!

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:01 pm

Post removed.

fredfred · Post by **fredfred** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:10 pm

Seamus887 wrote:
fredfred wrote:I was told to never go past 2 pages on a PS (but play around with fonts and margins a bit to get things to fit- like 11 point font etc) and never go past 1 page on a resume. There was a link to one of the t14 deans stating in 20 years, there was only 2 applicants that were justified in having over a 1 page resume (know this isn't exactly relevant to the question at hand, but still important to note).

If you can't fit what you need into a 2 page ps or a 1 page resume, you have too much crap in there. Remember, these adcoms are reading 5k+ personal statements. Get to the point.

Edit: I had a cycle where I outperformed my numbers pretty heavily and I think my PS at least helped in this regard. It sucked cutting it down more and more but you want these adcoms to read it, finish and say wow without getting bored or disengaged.
That seems unnecessaryly limiting for people with work experience. Maybe if you are k-jd, but someone who has worked a few jobs I think it's normal to have 2 pages on a resume.

I'll try to find the link. Basically the upshot was 2 pages is alright if you have substantial, top 1% kind of experiences. The two resumes cited by the adcom was like a marine who was wounded in the war on terror and had multiple medals while the other was someone over 30 who had been working as a volunteer in Africa for 10 years running a charity from the ground up into a multi-million dollar nonprofit. I wish I kept all these links, but after the cycle I deleted my treasure trove. So sure if you have stuff like that then yeah, go take 2 pages. But if you are like the 99% of everyone else, then it can fit onto one page.

Also you can fit multiple universities, awards, scholarships, athletic achievements and numerous jobs on one page. You just have to selective and not write a paragraph for each thing.

Edit: Also think about how many applicants apply times that by personal statements and resumes. Georgetown is gonna read 8-9k personal statements and resumes. I would venture to imagine, like most recruiters do, only to seriously read the first page of a multiple page resume. If you have a 2 page resume, then I would guess the important stuff would be on the first page. So it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't even really look at the second page or if they did, spent less time on it versus the 1st page.

This link is to Forbes about a study stating the average time someone who is hiring looks at each resume is only 6.25 seconds. Sure it may be different with adcoms, but just something to consider as well.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/ ... p-against/

This is also a quote from Kim Isaacs, a "resume master" from monster.com
"
consider a one page resume if:
You have less than 10 years of experience.
You're pursuing a radical career change and your experience isn't relevant to your new goal.
You've held one or two positions with one employer.

consider a two page resume if:
You have 10 or more years of experience related to your goal.
Your field requires technical or engineering skills, and you need space to list and prove your technical knowledge.
Put the most important information at the top of the first page. Lead your resume with a career summary so your key credentials appear at the forefront of the resume. On the second page, include a page number and include your name and contact information.
"

tldr: A two page resume is okay but use wisely and only if legit needed. Are you closer to the Marine with multiple medals from war or closer to having a few jobs out of college? I think looking at that seriously is the only way to decide.

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:19 pm

Post removed.

TheProdigal · Post by **TheProdigal** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:01 pm

Its really more about the girth, than the length.

PoopNpants · Post by **PoopNpants** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:08 pm

TheProdigal wrote:Its really more about the girth, than the length.

TITCR

basedvulpes · Post by **basedvulpes** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:33 pm

Post removed.

rnoodles · Post by **rnoodles** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:04 pm

basedvulpes wrote:
scone wrote:
rnoodles22 wrote:Edit: see if you can try to get into 2 pages by using 11 point and Arial Narrow font. Used it for all my apps and had no problem.
Fair enough. However, there's an interview with the Berkeley dean where he says they have a 4-page maximum & they recommend applicants make the most of that. Also, Chicago recommend 2-4 pages, and the examples of great personal statements on their website are each roughly 3-4 pages double spaced, size 11. So I stick by what I say, but with a qualifier that you should carefully research individual schools' positions!
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I seem to remember at least a few schools requiring you use Times New Roman 12 point, and reading somewhere else that this is what you should do even for schools that don't state it.

Edit: Yeah I guess I'm wrong that the schools themselves say that, all of the prompts I've collected say no such thing. Ignore me.

No, you're not entirely wrong. I overgeneralized with the "all apps" part. I think it was either USC or UCLA that required 12 point. I don't remember anything about Times being a required font though.

Hand · Post by **Hand** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:08 pm

PoopNpants wrote:
TheProdigal wrote:Its really more about the girth, than the length.
TITCR

Tell that to those 13 inches that got me full rides

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:20 pm

fredfred wrote:
Seamus887 wrote:
fredfred wrote:I was told to never go past 2 pages on a PS (but play around with fonts and margins a bit to get things to fit- like 11 point font etc) and never go past 1 page on a resume. There was a link to one of the t14 deans stating in 20 years, there was only 2 applicants that were justified in having over a 1 page resume (know this isn't exactly relevant to the question at hand, but still important to note).

If you can't fit what you need into a 2 page ps or a 1 page resume, you have too much crap in there. Remember, these adcoms are reading 5k+ personal statements. Get to the point.

Edit: I had a cycle where I outperformed my numbers pretty heavily and I think my PS at least helped in this regard. It sucked cutting it down more and more but you want these adcoms to read it, finish and say wow without getting bored or disengaged.
That seems unnecessaryly limiting for people with work experience. Maybe if you are k-jd, but someone who has worked a few jobs I think it's normal to have 2 pages on a resume.
I'll try to find the link. Basically the upshot was 2 pages is alright if you have substantial, top 1% kind of experiences. The two resumes cited by the adcom was like a marine who was wounded in the war on terror and had multiple medals while the other was someone over 30 who had been working as a volunteer in Africa for 10 years running a charity from the ground up into a multi-million dollar nonprofit. I wish I kept all these links, but after the cycle I deleted my treasure trove. So sure if you have stuff like that then yeah, go take 2 pages. But if you are like the 99% of everyone else, then it can fit onto one page.

Also you can fit multiple universities, awards, scholarships, athletic achievements and numerous jobs on one page. You just have to selective and not write a paragraph for each thing.

Edit: Also think about how many applicants apply times that by personal statements and resumes. Georgetown is gonna read 8-9k personal statements and resumes. I would venture to imagine, like most recruiters do, only to seriously read the first page of a multiple page resume. If you have a 2 page resume, then I would guess the important stuff would be on the first page. So it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't even really look at the second page or if they did, spent less time on it versus the 1st page.

This link is to Forbes about a study stating the average time someone who is hiring looks at each resume is only 6.25 seconds. Sure it may be different with adcoms, but just something to consider as well.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/ ... p-against/

This is also a quote from Kim Isaacs, a "resume master" from monster.com
"
consider a one page resume if:
You have less than 10 years of experience.
You're pursuing a radical career change and your experience isn't relevant to your new goal.
You've held one or two positions with one employer.

consider a two page resume if:
You have 10 or more years of experience related to your goal.
Your field requires technical or engineering skills, and you need space to list and prove your technical knowledge.
Put the most important information at the top of the first page. Lead your resume with a career summary so your key credentials appear at the forefront of the resume. On the second page, include a page number and include your name and contact information.
"

tldr: A two page resume is okay but use wisely and only if legit needed. Are you closer to the Marine with multiple medals from war or closer to having a few jobs out of college? I think looking at that seriously is the only way to decide.

I'm not saying everyone should submit a 2-page resumer to law schools, but I don't think that employers talking about resumes they see in job applications is quite the same thing as an admissions resume. They serve completely different purposes.

fredfred · Post by **fredfred** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:20 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
fredfred wrote:
Seamus887 wrote:
fredfred wrote:I was told to never go past 2 pages on a PS (but play around with fonts and margins a bit to get things to fit- like 11 point font etc) and never go past 1 page on a resume. There was a link to one of the t14 deans stating in 20 years, there was only 2 applicants that were justified in having over a 1 page resume (know this isn't exactly relevant to the question at hand, but still important to note).

If you can't fit what you need into a 2 page ps or a 1 page resume, you have too much crap in there. Remember, these adcoms are reading 5k+ personal statements. Get to the point.

Edit: I had a cycle where I outperformed my numbers pretty heavily and I think my PS at least helped in this regard. It sucked cutting it down more and more but you want these adcoms to read it, finish and say wow without getting bored or disengaged.
That seems unnecessaryly limiting for people with work experience. Maybe if you are k-jd, but someone who has worked a few jobs I think it's normal to have 2 pages on a resume.
I'll try to find the link. Basically the upshot was 2 pages is alright if you have substantial, top 1% kind of experiences. The two resumes cited by the adcom was like a marine who was wounded in the war on terror and had multiple medals while the other was someone over 30 who had been working as a volunteer in Africa for 10 years running a charity from the ground up into a multi-million dollar nonprofit. I wish I kept all these links, but after the cycle I deleted my treasure trove. So sure if you have stuff like that then yeah, go take 2 pages. But if you are like the 99% of everyone else, then it can fit onto one page.

Also you can fit multiple universities, awards, scholarships, athletic achievements and numerous jobs on one page. You just have to selective and not write a paragraph for each thing.

Edit: Also think about how many applicants apply times that by personal statements and resumes. Georgetown is gonna read 8-9k personal statements and resumes. I would venture to imagine, like most recruiters do, only to seriously read the first page of a multiple page resume. If you have a 2 page resume, then I would guess the important stuff would be on the first page. So it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't even really look at the second page or if they did, spent less time on it versus the 1st page.

This link is to Forbes about a study stating the average time someone who is hiring looks at each resume is only 6.25 seconds. Sure it may be different with adcoms, but just something to consider as well.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/ ... p-against/

This is also a quote from Kim Isaacs, a "resume master" from monster.com
"
consider a one page resume if:
You have less than 10 years of experience.
You're pursuing a radical career change and your experience isn't relevant to your new goal.
You've held one or two positions with one employer.

consider a two page resume if:
You have 10 or more years of experience related to your goal.
Your field requires technical or engineering skills, and you need space to list and prove your technical knowledge.
Put the most important information at the top of the first page. Lead your resume with a career summary so your key credentials appear at the forefront of the resume. On the second page, include a page number and include your name and contact information.
"

tldr: A two page resume is okay but use wisely and only if legit needed. Are you closer to the Marine with multiple medals from war or closer to having a few jobs out of college? I think looking at that seriously is the only way to decide.
I'm not saying everyone should submit a 2-page resumer to law schools, but I don't think that employers talking about resumes they see in job applications is quite the same thing as an admissions resume. They serve completely different purposes.

Which, if you read my post, I said are not equivalent but just something to consider more generally. But thanks anyway.

Mack.Hambleton · Post by **Mack.Hambleton** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:37 pm

2 page PS

1 page resume

No you're not a special snowflake

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:15 pm

Post removed.

chuckbass · Post by **chuckbass** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:32 pm

Seamus887 wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:2 page PS

1 page resume

No you're not a special snowflake
It isn't about being a special snow flake, but if you actually have work experience that will matter you need to show it. The resume is the one place for you to say all the crap you have done that makes you qualified. You can't do it in a PS or addendum. If you have stuff that will paint a better picture of you to admissions and you can't get it all on one single page, I think it would be a net gain to list it and go two pages.

Keep in mind that once you're actually in law school and applying for legal jobs, you'll need a 1 page resume, so may as well start shaping it up correctly now.

Procyon · Post by **Procyon** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:34 pm

For what it's worth, Spivey Consulting Blog has a post that comes out strongly against the 1 page resume rule.

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/debunk ... sume-myth/

These days, between academic honors, leadership and community service activities, and work experiences, many law school candidates easily fill 1 1/2 pages. And, that’s perfectly fine for a law school résumé. Just remember that you likely will be doing much more cutting when it comes time to create your job search résumé. And please don’t use razor-thin margins and 8pt. font to squeeze it all in to one page.

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:46 pm

Post removed.

basedvulpes · Post by **basedvulpes** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:33 pm

Post removed.

dolastas · Post by **dolastas** » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:24 am

So what's the consensus on messing with margins, font, and font-size? Is it ok if I have smaller than typical margins (which I think is generally 1 inch all around) as long as they're not ridiculously small? I think mine are 1 inch on top and bottom and .75 on the sides. Or do schools suggest something specific for uniformity?

And does the fact that you upload all of your documents through LSAC mess with the layout and margins so that it could push it over (or keep it significantly under) the relevant limit?

Sorry for reawakening this dying thread, but I figure this is the best place to get these answers because everyone's already on the topic.

dolastas · Post by **dolastas** » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:27 am

basedvulpes wrote:I don't know why, but I'm still agonizing about whether to do multiple drafts for length. I think it's purely out of being lazy and not wanting to do extra work if it's ultimately unnecessary. I made a table of the requirements I could find from schools to which I'm applying. Maybe it's helpful to others applying to these schools:

I think I'm just going to try my hardest to keep it to two. Forcing myself to be concise will only improve my writing. If I think I can add value in another half a page then I'll do a longer draft.

For what it's worth, I've been dealing with this same kind of agony over the various possible lengths. And nice chart.