NYU Law at Sticker Price

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checkmate92

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NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by checkmate92 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:51 pm

Hi

I was admitted to NYU Law early decision. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I did not receive any institutional aid. I am now confronted with taking out 300k and am admittedly more nervous about this than I thought I would be.

On the bright side, I do not have any undergrad debt but I also have very limited savings (20k in bank and 20k in 401-k). My biggest fear is failing to excel in law school and struggling to make debt payments after graduating. From what I have read, 300k would be between 3-4k a month in loan payments. Even with biglaw pay, I think I would lose all my money to debt/rent (in NYC). I just need a listening ear and some advice from those who may have been in a similar situation.

Thanks for the help.

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cavalier1138

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Re: NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:54 pm

What are your current stats?

If you got into NYU, you almost certainly would have gotten admitted to other T13 schools, likely with scholarships at the lower T13. So assuming that's the case, your best bet is probably to reapply next cycle (possibly after an LSAT retake if you can improve your score) and not apply ED to any school that doesn't offer a guaranteed scholarship with ED acceptance.

checkmate92

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Re: NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by checkmate92 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:04 pm

170, 3.58, Ivy.

I am not reapplying, though. It's just too much energy and I am eager to leave my current job and pivot in my life. I am 4 years out of undergrad.

I also think those stats are very meh and I would need to retake LSAT to get the aid/school combo I want.

QContinuum

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Re: NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by QContinuum » Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:49 pm

See https://mylsn.info/d1w41j/ - with your 3.5x/170, you should've been looking at Michigan with $90k, or a similar scholly at UVA/Duke/NW. Since you're a splitter and already have a 170, retaking actually wouldn't increase your prospects too dramatically - see https://mylsn.info/wbfjua/ for hypothetical outcomes with a 172 - but you should definitely reapply next cycle. NYU's a terrific school, but isn't worth $90k more than Michigan (or UVA/Duke/NW).

That said, if you're genuinely concerned about how much energy it takes to apply to law school, you may want to reconsider the whole enterprise. 1L's about 1000x more tiring than applying to law school. Getting everything together for bar admissions is about 100x more tiring than applying to law school (not exaggerating). And actual legal practice is also 1000x more tiring than applying to law school.

Applying to law school is really about as easy as it gets. A single, non-school-specific personal statement for all of your schools. A single set of transcripts mailed to LSAC. Electronically-submitted LORs that you can then blast out to all of your schools. I don't know how law school admissions could get any easier. I can see undergrad applications being draining, due to the sheer number of essays required, but law school admissions only require a single, generic personal statement. It really isn't a high bar.

crazywafflez

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Re: NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by crazywafflez » Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:16 pm

I would wait out the cycle and go again.
Plenty of folks go to NYU and pay sticker, but usually they have some kind of help from family or whatever. I really doubt many schools have any real scholly packages left this late in the game- I'd try contacting NYU and see if they'd be willing to negotiate. Did you apply to any other schools? Don't retake. Wait for next cycle and apply to all the T14, maybe T20 as well, no reason to really apply to HYS unless you are just dying for that miracle. But from CCN on down go for it. 300k is insane. There are worse things in life but I would seriously wait until next year. You'll get biglaw from NYU (unless the economy just really shits the bed); but you'll be an indentured servant for a long time. If reapplying is too much effort 1L is gonna suck for ya. I understand not wanting to wait another cycle. I also can say I'm a hypocrite and went anyways; I sincerely wish I had waited, retaken and reapplied; but at least reapplied and waited. I'm still happy with my choice, but it could have been so much better and so much cheaper. I know a year seems like a long time, but if you can stomach it I implore you to wait and reapply come fall. Your wallet will thank you later. You'll still get biglaw from Michigan, and it'll be so much cheaper.
Best of luck.

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thedunklord

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Re: NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by thedunklord » Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:20 pm

I think feeling nervous is sensible. Law School Transparency estimates the sticker cost of NYU at $377,394. That is just disgusting.

Are you considering NYU's LRAP?
Where do you want to work?
What type of job?

It sucks, but reapply, early, to many schools, is the best advice here.

checkmate92

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Re: NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by checkmate92 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:43 pm

I appreciate all the feedback -- super helpful.

I agree reapplying is minimal energy; I suppose I was just thinking that is so far away and I just want to go back to school.

Thinking about it today, though, I am selling myself on the idea of just going for it. I want to be in NYC for personal reasons (family/friends), and I don't want to wait. It's probably not the wisest financial decision in light of what you all have mentioned.

I have been doing reading on federal loans, and I think I can just go for unsub/grad+ loan, which affords this income-based repayment if you fall on hard times. My biggest fear is failing to break into biglaw and then being saddled with debt I cannot pay. I do not need to have potential bankruptcy looming over my head each time I sit for an exam (probably an exaggeration but I will feel it). With income-based repayment, you pay what you can for like 20 years and it doesn't cripple your lifestyle (at face value).

checkmate92

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Re: NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by checkmate92 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:55 pm

thedunklord wrote:I think feeling nervous is sensible. Law School Transparency estimates the sticker cost of NYU at $377,394. That is just disgusting.

Are you considering NYU's LRAP?
Where do you want to work?
What type of job?

It sucks, but reapply, early, to many schools, is the best advice here.
I am not considering LRAP. Am interested in corporate law in NYC.

QContinuum

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Re: NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by QContinuum » Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:00 pm

checkmate92 wrote:Thinking about it today, though, I am selling myself on the idea of just going for it. I want to be in NYC for personal reasons (family/friends), and I don't want to wait. It's probably not the wisest financial decision in light of what you all have mentioned.
Do you realize you can move to NYC before starting law school?

In fact, you would likely enjoy NYC more this coming year - and have more time to spend with your family and friends in the city - if you move there now (or whenever this pandemic is over) and start law school in fall 2021.
checkmate92 wrote:I have been doing reading on federal loans, and I think I can just go for unsub/grad+ loan, which affords this income-based repayment if you fall on hard times. My biggest fear is failing to break into biglaw and then being saddled with debt I cannot pay. I do not need to have potential bankruptcy looming over my head each time I sit for an exam (probably an exaggeration but I will feel it). With income-based repayment, you pay what you can for like 20 years and it doesn't cripple your lifestyle (at face value).
You don't need to worry about bankruptcy in the context of student loans, because not even bankruptcy can get rid of student loans.

Being on IBR for two decades is extremely painful. If you graduate law school at 25, you will be on IBR until you're 45. You will then be hit with a massive tax bomb at 45, which you may have to enter a multi-year payment plan with the IRS to pay off. In the meantime you will have limited ability to take out a mortgage or save for retirement. Don't delude yourself into thinking that IBR won't "cripple your lifestyle".

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Qtc

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Re: NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by Qtc » Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:46 pm

I should have studied, retaken, and applied a year later. I would have been happy going to Michigan with debt. But I was dumb and rushed into things. Reapply and then see what shakes out. If you have a job right now I wouldn’t give that up so fast

checkmate92

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Re: NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by checkmate92 » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:52 pm

QContinuum wrote: In fact, you would likely enjoy NYC more this coming year - and have more time to spend with your family and friends in the city - if you move there now (or whenever this pandemic is over) and start law school in fall 2021.
To provide more context, I have lived in NYC for last 4 years and grew up here. I want to stay here.
QContinuum wrote: Being on IBR for two decades is extremely painful. If you graduate law school at 25, you will be on IBR until you're 45. You will then be hit with a massive tax bomb at 45, which you may have to enter a multi-year payment plan with the IRS to pay off. In the meantime you will have limited ability to take out a mortgage or save for retirement. Don't delude yourself into thinking that IBR won't "cripple your lifestyle".
[/quote]

All fair and I appreciate the tax point, which I did not know about. Still undecided but I appreciate the help.

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Re: NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by QContinuum » Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:11 pm

checkmate92 wrote:
QContinuum wrote: In fact, you would likely enjoy NYC more this coming year - and have more time to spend with your family and friends in the city - if you move there now (or whenever this pandemic is over) and start law school in fall 2021.
To provide more context, I have lived in NYC for last 4 years and grew up here. I want to stay here.
Okay, understood, but the logic still doesn't compute.
checkmate92 wrote:Thinking about it today, though, I am selling myself on the idea of just going for it. I want to be in NYC for personal reasons (family/friends), and I don't want to wait.
You grew up in NYC. You live in NYC. You want to stay in NYC. All very good. But how does this add up to needing to start law school in fall 2020 or bust??

You have to analyze this objectively, and realize that your desire to stay in NYC cannot justify rushing to matriculate to law school this year. Reapplying next cycle will not in any way compromise or conflict with your desire to stay in NYC.

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Yugihoe

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Re: NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by Yugihoe » Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:10 pm

Lol people here are wasting their breath trying to explain to OP why his/her decision to pay sticker at NYU given OP's stats is probably the dumbest thing they've ever heard. OP has clearly made up mind and wanted to get some reassurance but couldn't because almost everyone else realized what a dumb idea it is, despite OP not realizing that this will alter the course of his/her life forever. The older, more mature OP, while grinding away 80 hours a week at big law for 5 years (which will be a whopping 8 years AFTER OP enrolls in law school) only to (MAYBE) hit a net balance of $0 will someday absolutely regret this moment.

OP, think of it this way: If someone offered you $200k to do a job this year instead of going to law school, would you take it? Let's say the job would be to have fun and do whatever you want (maybe even move to NYC and get a fun bartending job)? Would you take it?

I'm trying to draw a painfully bad analogy but essentially if you just reapplied normally next year (and not ED) you'd probably get enough scholarship that essentially would save you $200k and years of grinding at a job you will hate just to repay that amount.

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checkmate92

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Re: NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by checkmate92 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:53 am

Yugihoe wrote:Lol people here are wasting their breath trying to explain to OP why his/her decision to pay sticker at NYU given OP's stats is probably the dumbest thing they've ever heard. OP has clearly made up mind and wanted to get some reassurance but couldn't because almost everyone else realized what a dumb idea it is, despite OP not realizing that this will alter the course of his/her life forever. The older, more mature OP, while grinding away 80 hours a week at big law for 5 years (which will be a whopping 8 years AFTER OP enrolls in law school) only to (MAYBE) hit a net balance of $0 will someday absolutely regret this moment.

OP, think of it this way: If someone offered you $200k to do a job this year instead of going to law school, would you take it? Let's say the job would be to have fun and do whatever you want (maybe even move to NYC and get a fun bartending job)? Would you take it?

I'm trying to draw a painfully bad analogy but essentially if you just reapplied normally next year (and not ED) you'd probably get enough scholarship that essentially would save you $200k and years of grinding at a job you will hate just to repay that amount.
Thanks. I haven't done enough homework but I strongly doubt I am getting 200k with those stats unless it's a weak school where the prospects of biglaw in NYC are remote (you can correct me). It's possible that I can delay a year and get Michigan or something with 90k and biglaw prospects equally appealing, but does 90k materially alter the equation? I mean, either way, even with 90k, I am taking out close to 200 and if I fail at getting biglaw I bust and struggle. Are we talking the difference between 2 vs 5 years in biglaw? Yes, I will take 5 years (I am naive enough to think I actually WANT biglaw, the hours, the pace, and the grind -- it is why I want to go to law school).

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Re: NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by Fireworks2016 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:37 am

Yugihoe wrote:Lol people here are wasting their breath trying to explain to OP why his/her decision to pay sticker at NYU given OP's stats is probably the dumbest thing they've ever heard. OP has clearly made up mind and wanted to get some reassurance but couldn't because almost everyone else realized what a dumb idea it is, despite OP not realizing that this will alter the course of his/her life forever. The older, more mature OP, while grinding away 80 hours a week at big law for 5 years (which will be a whopping 8 years AFTER OP enrolls in law school) only to (MAYBE) hit a net balance of $0 will someday absolutely regret this moment.

OP, think of it this way: If someone offered you $200k to do a job this year instead of going to law school, would you take it? Let's say the job would be to have fun and do whatever you want (maybe even move to NYC and get a fun bartending job)? Would you take it?

I'm trying to draw a painfully bad analogy but essentially if you just reapplied normally next year (and not ED) you'd probably get enough scholarship that essentially would save you $200k and years of grinding at a job you will hate just to repay that amount.
Just close the thread now. Nothing else to be said to OP.

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Re: NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by QContinuum » Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:27 pm

Yugihoe wrote:OP, think of it this way: If someone offered you $200k to do a job this year instead of going to law school, would you take it? Let's say the job would be to have fun and do whatever you want (maybe even move to NYC and get a fun bartending job)? Would you take it?

I'm trying to draw a painfully bad analogy but essentially if you just reapplied normally next year (and not ED) you'd probably get enough scholarship that essentially would save you $200k and years of grinding at a job you will hate just to repay that amount.
To be clear, an extra $100k in student loan debt will cost $200k in salary to repay (ballpark figure of course). You estimate 35% (conservative estimate) in state and federal taxes, so the $200k you earned immediately goes down to $130k in after-tax money after Uncle Sam takes his cut. At the same time, the $100k in student loans accrues interest - let's say, $30k in interest.

That's where you get the $200k number.
checkmate92 wrote:I can delay a year and get Michigan or something with 90k and biglaw prospects equally appealing, but does 90k materially alter the equation?
Are you so rich that you might, say, spend $90k on a birthday party and not bat an eye?

It's a serious question. I have some classmates who come from wealth. If you're that wealthy that your bank account won't even notice an extra $90k missing, then obviously the finances shouldn't be of concern to you.

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Re: NYU Law at Sticker Price

Post by Anon-non-anon » Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:49 pm

Fireworks2016 wrote:
Yugihoe wrote:Lol people here are wasting their breath trying to explain to OP why his/her decision to pay sticker at NYU given OP's stats is probably the dumbest thing they've ever heard. OP has clearly made up mind and wanted to get some reassurance but couldn't because almost everyone else realized what a dumb idea it is, despite OP not realizing that this will alter the course of his/her life forever. The older, more mature OP, while grinding away 80 hours a week at big law for 5 years (which will be a whopping 8 years AFTER OP enrolls in law school) only to (MAYBE) hit a net balance of $0 will someday absolutely regret this moment.

OP, think of it this way: If someone offered you $200k to do a job this year instead of going to law school, would you take it? Let's say the job would be to have fun and do whatever you want (maybe even move to NYC and get a fun bartending job)? Would you take it?

I'm trying to draw a painfully bad analogy but essentially if you just reapplied normally next year (and not ED) you'd probably get enough scholarship that essentially would save you $200k and years of grinding at a job you will hate just to repay that amount.
Just close the thread now. Nothing else to be said to OP.

Hahaha, this. OP - it's clear you've made up your mind. That's fine. It's a bad financial move but it'll probably work out okay enough in the end. Hey, isn't that what being young is for?

I did a similar thing, with even more risk (T20 w/o huge scholy) and it's been fine, but VERY lucky. Had some scholarship, some family help, some savings, and so only took out 20K a year. Still working on it after 2 years in big law (plus 1.5 clerking) and fairly aggressive payoffs. You can literally chill for a year and likely save yourself several years of biglaw. I know you want it now, but get there before signing up for several more years.

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